Vox Populi – 1-6-2012

AdLib : Great, see you then!

KQµårk 死神 : I’ll be around tomorrow night for the debate.

AdLib : KQ – But the Senate has the right of consultation and approval on appointments. So he can’t interfere with their rules on process.

KQµårk 死神 : It’s a chicken and egg though when he’s talking about his power to appoint and make treaties.

AdLib : Okay! Have a great weekend!

KQµårk 死神 : Wait Treaties my require a larger margin by the Constitution well we’ll talk about it next time.

AdLib : KQ – I don’t think Obama could challenge the filibuster, that would then be him interfering with Congress’ power to set their own rules. Only the Senate could change the rules about the filibuster.

AdLib : The Senate could restrict filibusters any way they choose. They should restrict them from nominees and allow up or down votes.

KQµårk 死神 : sorry had one thought. Obama by challenging the senate filibuster rule as cutting into his constitutional power could be huge on issues like climate change treaties.

AdLib : KQ – That’s what Reid should do if the Dems win a sweep. Limit the filibusters and have an incredible 4 years that helps fix this nation.

KQµårk 死神 : And it could extend to any business the executive wants passed in the senate like treaties too. They should not be able to fillibuster those.

AdLib : And see you next week!

AdLib : Night KQ and thanks to all for making it another great edition of Vox Populi! Have a great weekend!

AdLib : Sorry about that Cher, have some chicken soup tomorrow and feel better!

KQµårk 死神 : Night Cher. Hope you feel better. I’m gonna peel off too.

AdLib : KQ – Yep, you can call a tree a horse but that doesn’t make it a horse. The Senate can call a pro forma session, The Senate being in session but when there isn’t a quorum even in the city, it isn’t in session and can’t work. Time to accept reality in DC.

Chernynkaya : Well, I caught a bug on the plane and still feel a little punky. See you wonderful folks later.

KQµårk 死神 : Take care funk almost missed it.

AdLib : Thanks Murph, we’re on the same page on this!

KQµårk 死神 : Yes AdLib this could be the first step to at least stop the Senate from filibustering or holding every nominee. It’s an obvious ploy to take away presidential power.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….just before putting my head to the pillow….Your summary of the GOP case is spot on.

Chernynkaya : Bye, funk.

AdLib : Night Funk, sleep well!

funksands : Murph I’m right behind you. Good night to all of you. Talk to you later.

AdLib : Night Murph!

Chernynkaya : Not far behind you, Murph. Goodnight.

AdLib : Murph – Right. The very statement of the Repubs that their intent is to thwart a law that has been passed because, as the minority, they don’t want it to be implemented, is also not a valid defense for intruding on Exec power. They said it straight up, this is only a ruse to prevent the Exec branch from being able to exercise its Constitutional power to implement laws Congress passes. They can’t win and fighting for the SCOTUS to return things to gridlock would be suicidal.

KQµårk 死神 : Sleep well murph.

Chernynkaya : What this Congress has taught us is how easy it is to highjack the legislative process. The lesson will not be forgotten and that is scary, noi matter who is in power. Reform is far on the horizon–maybe a generation away. But there is no doubt the institution is broken badly.

MurphTheSurf3 : Great discussion, but I am dead tired and nee to call it a night. Best to one and all.

Chernynkaya : Funk, good point. I have always said we are closer to fascism than we think. And I always ask myself how I’d feel about any law if the Repubs were in power.

KQµårk 死神 : funk that is a danger. I think eventually someone is going to invoke the nuclear option for that reason.

AdLib : KQ – Actually, it’s implicit, no branch can act in any way or make any law or rule that violates the Constitution unless the Constitution is amended. So The Senate can’t make a rule that takes away an enumerated power from the Executive Branch. This pro forma crap is unconstitutional and Obama, a constitutional scholar, knows it.

funksands : I am genuinely worried about Congress as an institution. They are so broken that people are yearning for an executive to wield ever more independent power to keep the trains running.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…the way I read it too. AND besides having the principles of law in its favor, it is also a PR winner. How do the Repubs argue not consenting to an appointment because they do not want the agency voted into law to go forward….ANd that agency is one set up to protect consumers….los e, lose, lose.

Chernynkaya : I know, just infuriating, like everything else they do. And I think that’s how 91% if the country sees it. Why running against Congress is so brilliant.

Chernynkaya : Yep, like that asshat, Menendez who has an appointment on hold.

AdLib : Cher – The sad thing is, The House can do that to their own because they can make their own rules.

MurphTheSurf3 : Funk– your point hits the nail on the head….Obama’s challenge is to both parties.

Chernynkaya : And then there’s this: House Republicans cut off C-SPAN, refuse to allow Democrats to speak on floor «link»

KQµårk 死神 : I guess your would need a constitutional amendment that say all rules need to be consistent with the constitution.

AdLib : Murph – Yes, the Repubs could try to pursue that course but they won’t prevail. They can make up their own rules but they can’t make rules that violate the Constitutionally described powers given to each branch. It’s an absolute loser of a case, rule vs. Constitution, Constitution wins every time.

funksands : I fear both parties secretly like the way things are. The filibuster is an excellent excuse to say “We tried, what were we supposed to do?” That feels too cynical, but its frustrating.

Chernynkaya : KQ yes that’s the point.

AdLib : Funk – That’s correct, the filibuster is a rule, not a law and it is not in the Constitution. The Constitution says that each house of Congress may make their own rules and the filibuster was a rule that The Senate created. It was always seen as an emergency cord, pulled only in rare occasions. The usage of it now by Repubs is a perversion and Reid has every justification to use mandatory rules to return it to its original intent, limiting the usage of it.

MurphTheSurf3 : Funk. The grounds for a court case would be that the Executive was interfering in the functioning of the Legislative. The position: we have the right to make our rules. If we say we are in session, we. Of course, this runs counter to their definition of the purpose for the pro forma session- to allow them to await the adjourning of the other house if their business is complete.

KQµårk 死神 : Well pro forma sessions are just a rule so how are they going to fight recess appointments in that time frame. Or is that the point.

Chernynkaya : Nuclear Option «link»

KQµårk 死神 : But wait isn’t that what the nuclear option is all about.

funksands : KQ, that might cut down on bullshit filibusters.

Chernynkaya : But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe anything that is unconstitutional in government can be illegal.

KQµårk 死神 : funk that’s the most original suggest I’ve ever heard. It may actually work.

AdLib : Funk – You’re right, you won that bet. Here ya go: «link»

funksands : You said the filibuster is RULE and not a LAW. SCOTUS would have nothing to say about a rule. Right?

funksands : Ad, like football coaches and challenge flage. If your filibuster gets overridden you lose an additional filibuster for your party.

Chernynkaya : Funk, what do I know though?

Chernynkaya : Libs who support Paul are simply ignorant and willfully so. BAH and FEH!

AdLib : Funk – My suggestion would be to limit the total number of filibusters in a session, maybe to 10. And as you say, they have to be exercised by being performed, not just stated. They have to stay up on their feet and block progress on a bill or forget it.

funksands : Cher, you said yourself that its a rule, and not a law…

KQµårk 死神 : I mean if you are too liberal and vote Green that’s one thing but Paul WTF?!

Chernynkaya : Has anyone ever taken that rule to SCOTUS? Maybe this will encourage someone.

funksands : By the way Ad, you owe me a web dollar.

AdLib : KQ – It was a sneaky trick, an effort to stretch the rules to block Exec Power. So it isn’t Constitutional, just a stunt intended to look legit.

KQµårk 死神 : That’s the thing AdLib Dems should realize the minority rules never help them.

funksands : KQ,I agree. That’s why I mercilessly tease anyone that I know that makes goo-goo eyes at Ron Paul. Especially younger people.

Chernynkaya : AL-HEH! And we need to move your desk…

KQµårk 死神 : funk I think some liberals are just terrible fixated about trends and peer pressure instead of thinking for themselves.

AdLib : “Um, if you could come in and work this weekend, that would be great.”

Chernynkaya : I don’t think I can ever forgive the Dems and Reid for not changing the filibuster when they had the chance. Nope, never.

MurphTheSurf3 : Pro forma session – A brief meeting (sometimes only several seconds) of the Senate in which no business is conducted. It is held usually to satisfy the constitutional obligation that neither chamber can adjourn for more than three days without the consent of the other. «link»

AdLib : Cher – No kidding! Think of all the damage done while Bush was in office that Dems never even tried to veto, like the Bankruptcy bill for starters. They are useless as a minority and should play to be heroes as a majority instead of whiners as a minority.

funksands : Ad, I’d be satisfied with simply eliminating the “Gentleman’s filibuster” If you are going to filibuster, you must be forced to physically do so.

KQµårk 死神 : Yup but I still don’t get it. It’s literally making a rule that we don’t need 51 votes to pass a bill. Now we need 60.

Chernynkaya : No problem, O face.

funksands : KQ, I’m convinced that deep down some “liberals” are simply whores who will go home with anyone that bats their eyes purty and says the right code word. “Hey baby, I’m totally into sustainability. How about you?”

AdLib : Murph – In the case of the pro forma sessions, they are infringing on Executive powers that are clearly specified in the Constitution so Obama should indeed slap their hand from stealing out of his cookie jar. In the case of the filibuster, Dems need to be thinking more like winners than losers and if they accomplished a lot and proved that government works when they’re in sharge, they would keep a majority in Congress for many years.

KQµårk 死神 : Cheers for letting me off the hook Cher.

Chernynkaya : KQ–they’re not laws, they’re rules.

Chernynkaya : What funk?

KQµårk 死神 : I still don’t get how rules that go against the Constitution are legal. You can’t make laws against the Constitution. Technically anyway.

funksands : I know what I’d do with a million dollars

Chernynkaya : The Swingline?

Chernynkaya : Nonsense, KQ–I’m not embarrassed!

KQµårk 死神 : mumbles ‘my stapler’ ‘burn down the place’ ‘stapler’

Chernynkaya : Exactly, AL. And to make matters worse, the Dems never use the filibuster when they can as the R’s do. It’d be different if they would, but they never do.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…we are on the same page in both matters…I find it intriguing that it is the Executive calling out the Legislative on how they do their business…

AdLib : KQ – That reminds me, where’s my red stapler?

KQµårk 死神 : now I’m embarrassed Cher.

KQµårk 死神 : Funk I’ve been going back and forth with a guy I don’t even know on FB about Paul. He claims to be a liberal and wants to vote for Paul to ‘shake things up’.

Chernynkaya : That’s what i was referring to KQ. Just saw it again the other night.

AdLib : Murph – The filibuster is different, the Congress is entitled to make their own rules so they can choose to have a filibuster…or choose to limit it however they wish. Here too, the Dems play like losers, thinking, “What about when we’re in the minority, we want to have that power!” Instead of, “Think of how much we can get done that could never be reversed by Repubs if we limited the filibuster.”

funksands : Cher, for sure, nothing like a guy running for President who wants to institute an imaginary economic theory to solve our problems…

KQµårk 死神 : Cher you would slap me if you ever saw “Office Space”.

Chernynkaya : Other than Smadolf Hister and Ahnold, nope.

funksands : I got into a very heated argument with a dear friend of mine over Ron Paul today. I almost lost my temper. He sure did. It was pretty fun. He’ll call me again in a couple weeks.

Chernynkaya : I love the O face!

KQµårk 死神 : Paul loves right wing Austrians. Hmmm… any come to mind?

Chernynkaya : Yeah, Funk. That was one great Ron Paul line. Like, huh? You could hear the heads of the audience pondering.

funksands :

AdLib : I though Ron Paul said Australian so I just put a shrimp on the barbie and called it “999”.

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…it is a cheat alright…and they have all been winking and nodding about it for years….Obama called ’em on it. I wonder if the filibuster (as it currently operates) could be challenged as well.

KQµårk 死神 : That’s my “O” face. You know what movie I got that one from AdLib?

funksands : Hi Everyone. We’re all Austrian Economists now…welcome to Thunderdome….

Chernynkaya : Man. Even that emoticon looks porny now.

AdLib : Funk – Hello and

KQµårk 死神 : mg: my horrible mind

Chernynkaya : Oh crap, I meant HAHAHAH! FUNK!

funksands : KQ, just a guy out walking his earth pet. Shame on you.

MurphTheSurf3 : Chris…if you are still here….love your spiritual leanings post…the human spirit rising toward truth.

AdLib : Murph – I agree with Cher, it doesn’t seem to be risky at all. It is a technical cheat anyway you look at it and even though the Dems would like to be able to have that cheat if a Repub was in the WH, it is nothing more than a cheat. This is not a right they have, it is a usurping of the Exec Branch’s power and unconstiutional.

KQµårk 死神 : funk we know what you are about with that icon.

Chernynkaya : KQ! HAHAHA!

funksands : One of my favorite 80’s porn titles Murph.

KQµårk 死神 : Or a couple shots of good whiskey.

MurphTheSurf3 : Bye CL. Remember two words “Moist Heat”

KQµårk 死神 : CL that was the newsletter he signed but said he didn’t read.

choicelady : I will be fine, everyone – and Cher I will take a hot shower! Halfway there.

Chernynkaya : True in all that Murphy, but I think the risk is overhyped.

AdLib : CL – Please take care of that back, we need you in fighting shape! Have a nice weekend and feel better!

choicelady : KQ – I’m back thanks to your comment – coming RACE WAR???? That man is beyond HORRIBLE! Yikes. NOW I’m leaving, but worried about how creepy that is! Good night!

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….Yes, the rules can be challenged on the grounds you set out. My point…both the R’s and D’s have been enabling this nonsense. The D’s used it to keep Bush from appointing in his last two years. Now the R’s are using it. Obama is saying that the rule, as stated, can be applied in this way. He is calling them both out. I suspect he had to have Reid’s cooperation in this, but it is still a risky move.

Chernynkaya : Take care, CL! I hurt my upper back on vacation and hot showers on the area really helped me.

KQµårk 死神 : Oh no CL! Take care. I hope you feel better soon. Great to have you per usual.

choicelady : Well everyone – I think I’m going to have to depart from here. I did something to my back – not awful, just unconfortable – and think I need to lie down and stretch it out. So I shall bid you all adieu and hope to reconnect next Friday. Have an EXCELLENT week. And if anyone finds some, please send CA some rain? Thank you!

KQµårk 死神 : Paul is as full of shit as it gets in politics. He does not want us in Afghanistan so we can have the “coming race war” at home

MurphTheSurf3 : CL I find your comments about ACA VERY interesting. I will need to do more reseach. Thanks.

Chernynkaya : CL, what the emos really don’t understand about PAul is that he is only against the war because it costs too much. There he voted for the AUMF.

AdLib : Murph – The pro forma rules are not Constitutional rules and Congress can’t unilaterally declare that they are unassailable. They are a stunt, a trick to take power away from the Executive Branch and I think it would be hard for them to prevail in fighting it. The Constitutional right of the Exec branch is to be able to appoint when Congress is not in a position to approve or reject nominees. That is exactly what the case is in pro forma sessions, they are not defensible when addressing original intent.

choicelady : Murph – THAT is an excellent point! This recess appointment then may have profound impacts beyond Obama standing up to the GOP. VERY interesting observation, thank you.

KQµårk 死神 : Remember that the Military budget the president presented does not include savings from getting out of Afghanistan. I heard an emoprog complain today that the cut was not as big as the debt ceiling arrangement but of course they did not consider that fact.

choicelady : Cher – and then Michelle Baby pounds the drum for an immediate invasion of Iran. Way to GO, Michelle! Just what we need – another war, right now, this minute. When the emoprogs jump on the “anti-war” bandwagon of Ron Paul though, they better understand he’s NOT – he’s just anti-government intervention. He voted for the war in Iraq AND he’d love to see corporate imperialists mount their own mercenaries to seize foreign resources. He just wants NO government to exist to temper that rapacious accumulation – the REAL basis of his “libertarianism “.

KQµårk 死神 : Great point Murph.

KQµårk 死神 : Another great thing about MLR it stopped stupid spending like the millions and millions they spent on advertising.

AdLib : And the exchanges that states can set up can start up in 2014, a real direct path to single payer!

MurphTheSurf3 : Been sitting here reading all of the comments about the “recess appointments.” All seem spot on. BUT, there is an even bigger move than it seems to be because it is a challenge to both the Dems and GOP as to how the Senate runs. The “pro forma” rules are very clear in the Senate Proceedings Book AND they have been using these sessions (they being the Dems and GOP) in ways that have interfered with the functioning of the government. If Obama succeeds in pulling this off, the pro forma session is dead and gone for both parties. Risky, but necessary.

Chernynkaya : CL–Exactly. Very few care about the Pentagon budget–only the RWNJs. And people are so war weary–yes, even most Repubs.

choicelady : Sabreen – did I see you’re leaving us? If so, have a good night and great weekend.

KQµårk 死神 : Think about it the 85% MLR just kicks all for profit insurance out of the market. At best efficient companies will make limited profits like utilities.

AdLib : CL – Yep, the AMT was originally intended to make sure that the wealthy never evaded paying a minimum percentage of taxes. Revamp it and close the loopholes, not terribly complex really, and we can start reversing decades of economic inequity.

Chernynkaya : CL, that’s what I meant–before the election. That would be so awesome on so many levels.

choicelady : Cher – and then the GOP will scream he’s endangering our national security! They did it today with the Defense Department reductions – OMG! We’re doomed! We have to protect our military!!! And it got a big yawn from pretty much everyone.

Chernynkaya : Also, some companies are starting to stop offering insurance–too expensive. The writing is in the wall.

choicelady : Cher – not only do I think he will end the war, it may be sooner than he’d said. The factors you illustrate all go that direction.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly CL I forgot to mention that.

KQµårk 死神 : The MLR is already getting some of the greedy healthcare insurers out of the market.

choicelady : KQ – The alternative minimum tax could be implemented and enforced for corporations. “Pay your fair share” tax. It would work.

Chernynkaya : Great minds, KQ!

KQµårk 死神 : Oh I agree CL. They can make a soft mandate even if the hard mandate is struck down that would be almost as effective. I’m still not a fan of the high risk pools without the subsidies they are still too expensive.

AdLib : Invient – Absolutely, we need to take away personhood from corps and require a modicum of social responsibility.

Chernynkaya : Night, Sabreen!

AdLib : Night Sabreen! Have a great weekend!

KQµårk 死神 : Cher you beat me to it.

choicelady : KQ – ACA will do well, no matter what the SCOTUS rules. The High Risk Pool is becoming a de facto public option, and with Medicare present for 40 years, that mandate to have insurance NOT in the private market is almost impossible to beat back. They just kicked in the 85% expenditure on health care – and already some insurance companies are getting OUT of the business. That is HUGE because it moves people more and more toward making this a true single payer plan.

AdLib : This is the leverage that a re-elected Obama would have even with one or both houses in Repub control. “You don’t want the Bush tax cuts to go away completely? The only way there’s going to be any deal is if the tax loopholes are eliminated and everyone pays their fair share. Then, we can reduce nominal rates a little but revenue will greatly increase and no corporation will get away without paying taxes.”

KQµårk 死神 : Well every indication is we will be out of Afghanistan sooner than later. The training is being sped up and the Afghans are going to negotiate with the Taliban.

invient : Nit sbareen

Chernynkaya : Do any of you think that Obama WILL start to really end the war in Afghanistan? I had an inkling he’d really like to and wish he would. The Taliban want peace talks, Karzai threw out the contractors from somewhere I can’t remember, and then there’s the new Pentagon budget.

invient : Kquark, how do you incentivize r and d to a profit only corporation. We need a new legal definition of corporation one that encompasses social and civic responsibility

Sabreen60 : Well good folks, I am calling it a night. Take Care and have a good week.

KQµårk 死神 : I would not even be opposed to lowering nominal tax rates for corps if they ended loopholes.

invient : They would just buy politicians to lower it, they did post WWII.

KQµårk 死神 : CL I think we really need tax reform on the rich and corporations. We can’t let the GE’s of the world pay ZERO taxes.

AdLib : CL – Maddow showed an interview with Huntsman and he too would insist that we are out of Afghanistan by 2013…as Obama has already said.

choicelady : AdLib – if we could indeed raise taxes on the NET of millionairs, and we need to make that clear that it’s AFTER deductions, we could transform America top to bottom.

KQµårk 死神 : Of course I’m counting on the ACA kicking in fully in 2014 as well.

KQµårk 死神 : Oh absolutely AdLib almost forgot.

Chernynkaya : AL, That’s great if E’cat does that, but I am talking about to a much wider audience. Don’t know how I can do that though. I guess I’ll just write to MSNBC hosts whenever they have an HP tool on.

AdLib : KQ – Those would all be great. I would add to that list, letting the Bush tax cuts expire for the wealthy and even increasing taxes on millionaires. Then, more tax money can flow to the states, more teachers, police, firemen and we can rebuild our infrastructure.

KQµårk 死神 : CL and of course Romney said the opposite about Afghanistan and would stay in Iraq.

Sabreen60 : Good Night Chris.

KQµårk 死神 : True AdLib and I’m not worried about AOLHP’s impact anymore. They have exposed themselves to be the hypocrites they are.

Chernynkaya : CL–Cordray is amazing!«link» it.ly/z6M37D

choicelady : Chris – good night and have a great weekend. Hope to see you next week.

choicelady : KQ – Obama said out of Afghanistan by 2013 I think. Today Romney said IF HE is president, he’ll have troops out of Afghanistan by – 2013. Wow. What a visionary is Mittens.

AdLib : Take care Chris!

AdLib : Cher – Though we’re not interested in being positioned as an “Anti-HP” site, I do think a lot of the propaganda over there will need to be exposed during 2012. Hmm…maybe we can all encourage Escribacat to return to doing her Rashomon series?

KQµårk 死神 : Night Chris thanks for chatting

Chernynkaya : Take care Chris.

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib if Obama can finally end the war in Afghanistan and get the economy going again it would be a huge thing. Then add one more big accomplishment like immigration reform or the new climate change agreement is about all I would expect.

choicelady : Chris – that’s great to know. I’m unfamiliar with him but figured he had to be boffo or Obama would not have appointed him.

ChrisR266 : well, folks, must call it an evening. I hope you have a wonderful week’s end and enjoy the week to come. Be careful out there…

choicelady : AdLib – it’s getting harder and harder for firebaggers to find issues, isn’t it. Poor, poor babies…

choicelady : Cher – the phony “We aren’t recessed” issue has NO traction I can see.

Chernynkaya : Obama’s second term will be very good. I think he’s figured it all out now.

KQµårk 死神 : Cher me neither the Senate had nothing near a quorum so how can they pretend they were in session. I read where Truman made a recess appointment with the Senate out half a day.

ChrisR266 : Choice: He is major league.

AdLib : CL – The poor emoprogs, losing their raison d’etre! Poor firebaggers, they have no reason to live.

Sabreen60 : Adlib, I think any “in your face” Prez Obama does to Repubs is great. Seriously, Presidents going back to Reagan (maybe farther) have made recess appointments. The fact the Repubs have some freshman flunky to stay a few minutes is just a gimmick.

choicelady : Chris – I’m so glad you have Cordray experience! Good to read.

Chernynkaya : KQ– We need to find a way to debunk AOLHP without actually posting there.

choicelady : AdLib – I think in a second term Obama will skyrocket! But a lot of that depends on Congress, and we need to keep that focus, too.

AdLib : Invient – I agree, I don’t want settlements in the mortgage cases against the banks and many AGs in big states like NY and CA are refusing to settle. Then, if cases go forward, we will finally ghave the facts on the crimes committed.

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib I do agree Obama will be more aggressive but FDR had a bigger Dem majority and Obama will by lucky to have one chamber. So we can’t let too many expectations be a problem again.

invient : I keep reading on William blacks blog that the settlement is meant to cover all fraud. 20 billion for trillions in damages is criminal to me. Geithner us all for it too. It just frigates me.

Chernynkaya : I cannot believe that the R’s have a leg to stand on about the recess appointment. I predict it’ll get no traction among most voters. Technically, they didn’t gavel the recess, but everyone hates those games anyway. And What the fuck are we talking about? A new Consumer Protector! Like that’s unpopular.

ChrisR266 : Cordray is on righteous dude. Excellent choice. He was just gang-busters here in Ohio. Most people in the state were shocked he lost.

choicelady : Anyone – I heard that Joan Walsh admitted Obama had done some amazing things and acted shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED at all he’s accomplished. Maybe she’ll stop being so disgusting. Ed Schultz is doing the same – giving Obama huge credit for accomplishment. I see some real changes in the MSM on their approaches to Obama’s work.

ChrisR266 : Cher: GOOD fights don’t draw ratings and clicks. Dirty fights do. But, people are starting to wise up.

AdLib : As some of us proposed earlier, might not a 2nd term Obama be a lot more like FDR…who wasn’t more like FDR himself until his 2nd term?

choicelady : invient – the problem with the mortgage issue is that every freaking state is DIFFERENT. It’s really hard to get a “one size fits all crises” plan.

KQµårk 死神 : You are preaching to the choir on that one Cher. But then AOLHP says Obama did not raise the minimum wage.

ChrisR266 : Murph: Here’s where my spiritual leanings of late take me: I have trust and faith in the human spirit, and I do believe that our collective humanness will come through in November. People are starting to get it–the needs of many of us should outweigh the needs of the few or the privileged. That is what makes good societies work.

invient : About time.

Chernynkaya : Yes, CL. Showing how Ronmey sent jobs overseas is HUGE. And destroying companies.

AdLib : As we’re talking about Obama’s strengths and his new more assertive style, what do you think about Obama’s in-your-face appointment of Cordray to head the Consumer Board?

choicelady : KQ – today the immigrant rights group said that Obama is working to keep families intact. That’s HUGE. And it’s SO “family values”, too!

KQµårk 死神 : Well there are two tough fights around the corner with the debt ceiling and extension of the payroll taxes so people need to have his back.

Chernynkaya : That’s what drives me absolutely insane! Almost every day, Obama does something GOOD. I can’t stand that there is no coverage. I have made it my priority this year to call out the media every week.

choicelady : Cher – I think Romney can be brought down on his own “job killing” history. The MoveOn video of the two steel workers whose plant was closed by Romney’s investment firm (can’t remember the name EVER) is damning. His entire history is that – put ordinary people out of work. Then remember he said corporations ARE people because they have people IN them, completely validating what people really fear: corporations will be given free rein again.

invient : I am still weary, if only the admin would stop pushing for the mortgage settlement across all states. Errrr

MurphTheSurf3 : KQ…I think the Repugs are going to regret their calls that Obama show leadership. He is showing it by stomping all over them. Good.

KQµårk 死神 : It was nice to see Salizar extending the ban on mining in the Grand Canyon too.

ChrisR266 : KQ: About Obama, we agree. He’s coming into it now.

Chernynkaya : Oh cool. That site’s a keeper–thanks!

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib President Obama has found his second wind and is getting bolder and bolder. Cutting the military budget, recess appointments, starting a youth jobs program by himself and now I heard he’s reforming the green card process.

MurphTheSurf3 : KQ Got it.

MurphTheSurf3 : Cher- Jib Jab is great. I just wish they were more prolific.

AdLib : Cher – JibJab creates humorous animated political videos: «link»

invient : He is acting. Human, no. Whatever the GOP checklist is.

ChrisR266 : Romney reminds me of the Stepford wives. He’s the Stepford candidate.

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib….Great.. ..

KQµårk 死神 : Or was it the pretending comment Smurf. I was trying to be snarky.

Chernynkaya : And what is JibJab?

KQµårk 死神 : Romney just seems like he’s acting to be seen as human to me.

Chernynkaya : AL, I agree. The only thing I don’t want to throw at him is his Mormonism.

AdLib : Murph – The appointment of Cordray is on my list for tonight!

ChrisR266 : AdLib: There IS deadly stuff in Romney’s tax return. He would release it if there wasnt’.

KQµårk 死神 : Yup that’s part of the kitchen sink AL.

MurphTheSurf3 : KQ…clarify please.

AdLib : Personally, I’d like to see a JibJab type history of Romney detailing his father’s nasty exploits. If Obama was to be dmaned as a socialist and Muslim becuse of his father, it’s only fair game to publicize who Romney’s father was.

KQµårk 死神 : Murph I’ve been tweeting that I’m pretending to be outraged over it.

Chernynkaya : KQ somewhere I saw a great vid of Romney reciting that same America The Beautiful crap on 5 separate occasions. And reciting it much worse than Shatner!

invient : Hope it’s online that sounds entertaining. I laughed greatly when sanatorium had to morally jumble his faith with the constitution.

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…do not know the protocol here but I wonder if you were thinking of asking the “gang” about Obama’s “constitutional ” firecracker this week. The recess appointments when the Senate claims not to have been in recess.

KQµårk 死神 : Cher

KQµårk 死神 : There is something just missing in Romney. Did anyone see his IA speech. What was with the bad Shatner acting?

Chernynkaya : Who knows? Maybe the dog was just smart and the Romney farted a lot.

AdLib : Murph – I just trust in the fact that Romney is a multimillionaire douche and he couldn’t resist evading taxes or investing in ventures that exploited people. Just simple logic to me.

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…my conservative friend has some good info sources…I do not think he knows anything about Romney’s wealth, but he does know how the GOP leadership in three states is thinking. Romney is not a winner in their minds for many reasons.

KQµårk 死神 : Yup one time he said he was in a sealed container and that failed the sniff test so he said the dog liked the fresh air.

Chernynkaya : Oh, Hi invient!

AdLib : Hi Invient! He would have at least had secret service protection and been much more careful.

Chernynkaya : KQ, when asked about that recently, he said the dog WANTED to ride up there. Yeah.

KQµårk 死神 : Yes AdLib losing RFK was much worse than losing JFK if you could compare utter tragedies.

AdLib : Murph – I am strongly convinced that there is deadly stuff in Romney’s tax returns. Hammering him on them will keep him off message, on the defensive and as unlikeable as he is, refusing to show the American people what he’s hiding will only make him look worse and worse.

KQµårk 死神 : I was thinking about that too Cher. Someone needs to make a commercial with the original Vacation movie and Mittens awkward explanation of putting his dog on the roof. Another thing Mittens flip flopped on BTW.

invient : Sure nothing would happen to Rfk during his term.

Chernynkaya : KQ–‘Zactly–Mc Govern?

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…see today that Bobby’s grandson Joseph, a red head, is going to run for Barney Frank’s seat.

AdLib : KQ – RFK would have been President and we would never have had Nixon in the WH…it would have been a very different America today.

Chernynkaya : KQ, I’d even throw that he put his dog in a crate on the roof of his car at him! Lots of pet lovers out there. See this protest? «link»

KQµårk 死神 : No way Nixon would have beat RFK.

KQµårk 死神 : Amen AdLib almost forgot about that tragedy.

AdLib : KQ – And the assassination of RFK.

MurphTheSurf3 : A conservative friend told me that in his crowd the Romney Tax Returns are his Birth Certificate. They think there are big stink bombs there that show his links to some of the worst “suck em dry” maneuvers by companies like his which while wearing the banner of “company rebuilders” are really search and destroy missions.

KQµårk 死神 : Cher like you imply the candidate matters. We should know on the Dem side a charismatic candidate would have beaten Bush in 2004.

AdLib : Cher – It does matter. Obama is well liked. Romney is very disliked. Everything else aside, that will be a major obstacle ROmney will never be able to overcome, it’s just not in his robotic programming.

KQµårk 死神 : Cher and Nixon would have never won but for a split Democratic party in 1968.

Chernynkaya : No prob, Sabreen!

Chernynkaya : See, Murph, I think you hit on his greatest weakness. Only Nixon was a unlikable and got elected. I sadly believe most people vote emotionally, and Romney is such a dud. At the4 end of the day, it might be his biggest liability and one he can’t fix.

KQµårk 死神 : Good point I missed that one AdLib.

Sabreen60 : Sorry Chern. These far-sighted eyes of mine thought I was looking at a “m”.

AdLib : I am convinced that there is damaging stuff in his tax returns, that is the key reason he has been so vocal about refusing to release them. Most candidates would just say, “Probably, at a later date.” But Romney is emphatic and I saw that interview, he looked very nervous when pressed to release them.

KQµårk 死神 : Cher you’ve convinced me of the kitchen sink strategy. Throw dead cats if we need to, to defeat Romney. Even the GOPTEA baggers now the best thing about him from the right’s perspective is that they can play him like a marionette. He simply has no integrity.

Chernynkaya : AL–thanks for the tax info!

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib, Cher, KQ….low end worth for Mitt is 250 Million and the high end closes in on 700 Million. He is one rich dude (fourth richest to run for office, Perot, Kerry, and ???? are the other three). AND so much of his money came from Bain which is was a Bane for Unions, Working People, the 99 percent. Talk about the Poster Boy for the nastiest elements of Wall Street…and that plastic smile and recorded chuckle makes my skin crawl.

Chernynkaya : (oops logged myself out there.) KQ and AL–OK, you’ve convinced me. He told ABC news lady he might not even release them if he’s elected. I think one good thing about this is if the press keeps asking. I’ll have to Tweet and email them about that!

AdLib : Cher – Yes, tax returns have to show the income for the specific investments you have. Revenues and write offs have to be assigned in K-1s to each company he’s vested in. There’s a reason he’s refusing to show them, I bet you there’s some real dynamite in them, either in the companies he’s vested in or in his evading paying his fair share. And if Romnay is exposed as a 1%er who evades paying his fair share? He’s done.

KQµårk 死神 : Cher exactly I think Dems need to throw the kitchen sink at Romney. He really has never been vetted.

KQµårk 死神 : That’s the thing AdLib and I think there is more there with Romney when you count the sources of income he has.

KQµårk 死神 : I guess I’m just saying it’s a bigger issue against Romney than most or he would be releasing them like every other candidate.

AdLib : Cher – In a campaign, you’re always looking for a mole hill to become a mountain. Romney’s tax returns are ideal for this. If his whole identity is as a 1%er and much of America is pushing back against them, it would be a big blow against Romney to be nailed as a 1%er who pays no taxes. In this year, in this atmosphere, it would be devastating.

Chernynkaya : AL–Anything we can get out there against Romney–even if it only moves a small segment of voters–is well worth it. BTW, when one releases tax returns, do they tell all about ones financial connections? I know they tell how much was paid, but what else?

KQµårk 死神 : It’s like the 7 houses issue with McCain too.

AlphaBitch : CL: Because Rove scurries around like a little cockroach. Where WAS he the night of IA?

KQµårk 死神 : Cher I think it is if he protests too much about hiding them and it’s a big issue when they see he’s paying 15% in taxes when the middle class is paying 30%.

Chernynkaya : CL–Oh, he has a TON of baggage. But I just think that’s different than the birth cert. issue, which only played to the worst of the haters.

choicelady : AdLib – GREAT analogy with Popeye! But these bozos think they can get away with this crap.

AdLib : Cher – Very good point and right on the money. It won’t be as powerful to nail Romney on tax returns the way Obama was pounded on his borth certificate but, just playing the role of a campaign manager, if you started a whisper campaign that Romney had something huge he didn’t want the public to know about his tax returns (namely that he probably paid little income tax and has his fingers in many of the same corps he wants to give tax breaks to), it can make him look worse and worse each time he refuses to show his tax returns. If he does or doesn’t show them, it can be a big hammering for him.

Chernynkaya : KQ–I’m not saying they aren’t a good attack, just not a huge deal for most voters. As we agree, it’s part of the steady drip. And I see your point about transparency.

AlphaBitch : Murph: Had not seen that jibjab. Thanks.

choicelady : Cher – I agree that white Romney will never engender the same rage and idiocy that a Black president has, but he still has baggage that raises contempt for him. His family history is bizarro – his grandfather was Mexican. Not Latino but Mexican since he left the US as a practicing polygamist, then came BACK to the US to escape the Mexican Revolution but was then a Mexican citizen. So Romney’s tarred with both a deserter and polygamist for a grandfather. And Newt is salivating to get that out on the record! Santorum is as well, calling same sex marriage just an opening for polygamy. It is my profound hope that by the time someone is actually nominated, they will be in such shreds and tatters that Obama will just have to lean toward him, and said GOP candidate will fall down.

KQµårk 死神 : It’s not about the IRS. It’s about transparency.

Chernynkaya : AL HAH! Woah.

KQµårk 死神 : Cher I think the tax returns do play against Romney the way hiding the medical records hurt McCain until he released them.

AdLib : CL – I LOVE that Romney is trying to attack Obama on foreign policy. It’s like attacking Popeye about spinach. Obama is so overwhelming on the issue of foreign policy, all he has to do is ask Romney what his qualifications are on foreign policy and ROmney’s jaw will hit the ground.

Chernynkaya : CL–Romney said something even MORE outrageous: That Obama’s support of the NLRB hurts labor. HUH?

ChrisR266 : Cher: about this we agree. I am sick and tired of people trying to mitigate or deny that reality.

MurphTheSurf3 : AB…remember the Obama Pirates Video from JibJab. Loved It. «link»

AlphaBitch : Cher: Agree. And everyone hates the IRS.

Chernynkaya : AL–the thing with the birth certificate merely showed that people want something, anything, to hang their hat on once they’ve already decided they hate a candidate. It was an excuse for baseless hatred. I don’t think the tax reurns will serve the same purpose because Mitt doesn’t arouse baseless hatred like a AA president does. IMO.

KQµårk 死神 : I don’t understand how increasing tax liabilities by $600 billion in 2015 AND increasing military spending is going to play well with anyone. Stupid stupid stupid, it’s not 2004.

choicelady : Murph – I am close to Kathleen RAgsdale, an “out” priest who is now head of the theological seminary in MA. She ROCKS, and she’s one of MY great role models!

ChrisR266 : I think that no matter which candidate makes it to those october debates, President O is untouchable on Foreign Affairs. It would be kamikaze for them to attempt to attack him there. He wouldn’t even have to say much. The American people will take care of this one.

AlphaBitch : CL: We were just reminiscing about the killing of the Somali pirates who had hijacked the crew and what a clean job and steady hand that took.

KQµårk 死神 : Cher true and we need to make the drip drip hurt.

AdLib : Sure looks like Romney to me: «link»

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…my best pastor was/is a woman whose partner, another woman, is among the leaders in social justice activity in my region. I moved, but still consider her my wisdom figure.

Sabreen60 : BRB

choicelady : AdLib – Romney had the cojones today to say Obama had no capacity on foreign policy because he’s endangering us with Iran. Romney wants us to go INTO Iran. NOW. And he’s calling Obama soft on defense. It doesn’t actually seem to be working, but he’s dragging out the party line because, well, what ELSE would you say about this president who did so much good in foreign affairs?

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly AdLib and it would be unprecedented for Romney to hide them as well at least in recent elections.

Chernynkaya : KQ I don’t think any ONE thing is deadly to Mitt (or any candidate). I think the tax returns are just an important part of the steady drip drip of accumulated bad shit.

AdLib : BTW, I like ROmulans and Romoney!

KQµårk 死神 : Perfect analogy Murph I don’t mind Obama is sometimes called Vulcan with his logical serenity.

AdLib : KQ – I think that it can be built into a big issue. Convince the public that he has deep dark secrets and is intentionally hiding them from the public…I mean, who would have thought a birth certificate would have been a big issue?

choicelady : Murph – I was Episcopalian for a long time and still love the beauty of the church. I was a “revolving door” one though – in one day, out when they wouldn’t ordain women, back in then out when they wouldn’t ordain GLBT people, then back in. Then sort of out I’m not sure why. But nobody does Christmas better! And thank GOD you’re not Anglican American – they’re RW fascist creeps, I’m saying in a nice way…

MurphTheSurf3 : R-O-M-U-L-A-N-S. …The appearance of Vulcans, can seem dispassionate, but having a mean and highly aggressive core….ALL Hail Mitt!

KQµårk 死神 : How much do you think Romney not releasing his tax returns hurts him?

Chernynkaya : Sabreen, BTW, there is no letter “m” in my name

AdLib : KQ – Agreed, if the economic trend basically continues in the right direction…what else does ROmney have to offer? Foreign policy? Nope. Social policies? Nope. No experience or attractive ideas in any other area. And his work at Bain will become a deficit once the truth is exposed. And no wonder he refuses to show his tax returns, that is such a winner of an issue for Dems and Obama. Nail him on that, on hiding terrible truths and if he does give in, there will indeed be terrible truths. If he doesn’t, he will look guilty just the same.

Chernynkaya : Sabreen, I don’t remember a worse election cycle for it since Reagan. Always whenever there is a recession though.

AlphaBitch : Cher: Yeah, like he’d ever even invite them over for dinner.

KQµårk 死神 : They need to go after the rich and neocon angle like you said and call him Mitt McCain too.

Chernynkaya : I actually wonder if Mitt’s wealth is a disadvantage. Too many people think that is a virtue, and an inspiration, the idiots.

choicelady : KQ – I’ve started seeing Romnulans on other blogs. I think that’s catching on.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL – Modern Protestantism vs. Evangelical/Fund amental Protestantism… .my affiliation is Episcopal (and not Anglican)

ChrisR266 : Romnulans! Yep. I’m on board.

choicelady : Murph – we shall do that. You should know that despite my job, I don’t belong to a church. At all. It works for me.

KQµårk 死神 : So are Romney supporters Romnulans.

Sabreen60 : Thanks Cherm. They wrote the obvious, didn’t they? Anybody with half a brain knows that it’s a stereotype about black folks and simply based on raw numbers there are more whites on food stamps than blacks. I really get tired of this shit every election cycle.

choicelady : AB – that’s a GREAT name for Mittens! Ro-Money. Superb!

KQµårk 死神 : Obama has to run against congress. Paint Romney as a flip flopping disingenuous creep. And tout his accomplishments.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- You and I must talk “church” at some point. We are on the same wave length but from very different angles.

ChrisR266 : Alpha: I like that. Ro-money. Works for me.

Chernynkaya : Well, I don’t think it will get to below 8% but I’m willing to hope that even smaller gains will keep O in the WH. Especially if he can gain the message that the R’s are not only to blame for the crisis, but the obstruction. He GOT to make that stick.

choicelady : AdLib – I decided to embrace Obamacare because he DID do it, and it’s REALLY a good plan, getting better every day. I choose to make it an honorific, not a sneering dismissal.

AlphaBitch : Let’s start calling him “Ro-money”.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly AdLib lies don’t play well with independents.

AdLib : CL – Obama should only mention Romneycare (gulp!) to illustrate Romney’s dishonesty in vowing to end “Obamacare” (I hate that term). It will be SO easy to trash Romney for being a liar and a two-face AND for being the face of the 1%. This is not the year that the poster boy for the 1% can win.

ChrisR266 : I wonder how many clots the GOP establishment have thrown over the last two months… This fiasco must be making their heads explode. They KNOW they cannot win the Presidency this way, and it appears that the corporate powers that be have decided that they cannot win it either, so they’re going to make sure the status quo at least survives

choicelady : Murph – I knew you knew. Yeah, as these guys went, he wasn’t the worst. The movement in the post-missionary age when we had to face what we’d done and how destructive it had been has made a HUGE difference. Respect for diversity now is the hallmark of pretty much all Protestants – not all, but most. We are losing one Presbyterian church though since they are throwing out the gays, so WE are throwing THEM out. They are disgusting in their smugness.

KQµårk 死神 : I still go with the economy will be very important. If the unemployment rate is less than 8% and trending downward. It’s going to be awfully hard for Romney to win.

KQµårk 死神 : Absolute CL on every level ACA is better.

AdLib : Chris – True, the GOP is the party of liars but they can’t win a GE with the Liar platform. And ROmney has already been proven to state outright lies. I do think ROmney will be easily taken apart and his being so unlikeable will make it lasting.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- I know JW is gone, and actually his writing would indicate that he was quite open to diversity in faith experience (as a break off from the Episcopal Church)

choicelady : Obamacare is sooooo much better than the Mass Plan it’s not even funny. I will try to cobble together something on it. I actually READ all of it plus the MA plan etc. Obama should say, well, Mittens, you tried, but we made it work and we succeeded. Nyah, nyah.

KQµårk 死神 : The bottom line is voters on every side do not like phonies and Wall Street types right now. Romney is the worse candidate for them.

ChrisR266 : AdLib: It sure the hell wasn’t me.

Chernynkaya : «link»

AdLib : Hey, someone said Romneycare! Gulp!

choicelady : Murph – JW is dead. I’m talking about people today. John might not like it, but he can go eat worms. And probably is.

KQµårk 死神 : Actually he won’t do it but his SuperPAC will.

KQµårk 死神 : I mean could you imagine Obama hitting Romneycare on it funding abortions.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL Unless you are John Wesley.

AdLib : Cher – I don’t think Dems will be using the tact of branding Romney a moderate, they’re branding him a hollow fraud who believes in nothing but winning power. And that is a big winner for Obama and the Dems because he so obviously is.

AlphaBitch : AL: That’s it, Mister! “Romneycareromn eycareromneycare romneycare” Now off to bed with you

Sabreen60 : Cherm, the link didn’t work on my computer.

KQµårk 死神 : I read a good article Cher that the Obama team is going to paint Mittens as a flip flopper and new found extremist but you are right about other Dems.

choicelady : Chris and Murph – whatever works for you is what you should do. Trying to conform to a RELIGION is silly – what motivates and nurtures you, strengthens you – that is where your spirit is meant to be. My “Church without BS” friend once noted that with all the stars, the galaxies, the universes – it’s pretty hard to argue God is a Methodist.

ChrisR266 : AdLib: Remember, this is the party that doesn’t believe that not telling the truth is a problem.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen-the official position of the Catholic is NO to contraception (pointing to Natural Family Planning as an alternative). Most, almost all RC ignore it, but there is this loyal to the core faitful….and they are beginning to dominate the councils that the bishops listen to among lay people.

Chernynkaya : Sabreen and all–seen this? Repubs play racist card:«link» one.com/nation/n ewsonestaff6/gui de-to-republican -racism/

AdLib : AB: Gulp!

KQµårk 死神 : Like I said on a post the worse thing Romney has going for his is trying to create real contrast in debates. He simply can’t on almost every issue Obama can say you agreed with me a few years ago Mitt.

Sabreen60 : Cherm, I have wondered the same thing.

ChrisR266 : Murph: Well, Animism has some interesting plusses, but it is just a convenient moniker for how I make it through the day and with what regard I attempt to hold the other humans I interact with on a daily basis. It works for me.

choicelady : Murph – secret: almost all Protestants who believe in social justice feel the same as you. All the values, none of the bullshit. Just saw a friend, a radical Methodist minister, who started “The Church without Bullshit” in Panama. Was quite successful and yes, that WAS its name.

Chernynkaya : What I don’t fully understand is why the Dems are touting Romney as a closet moderate. Won’t that backfire at the general? I can see its value in the primaries (turning off the radicals) but I am worried it will come back to bite us if we convince people he’s not really so conservative.

AdLib : KQ – How did you like the GOP official statement that the miscount “doesn’t affect the outcome” in IA. Laughable, they don’t want it to affect the outcome so it doesn’t. And I don’t think that was the only case of fraud in the IA caucus, the Repubs are cheats as we well know from both of Bush’s elections. They wouldn’t allow Santorum to beat Romney.

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib you are right all the volunteering and enthusiasm will be gone with Romney as candidate. He’ll try to go big ball. The worse part for Romney is when he goes back to the center it will be even worse for him with the base.

AlphaBitch : AL: NO drink for using “Romneycare” tonight, buddy.

choicelady : Chris – in 2008 I was driving around SE Ohio and saw almost no national signs, but of those present, it leaned Obama. And then walked into a restaurant in Salem to see a young woman dressed EXACTLY like Sarah – I did a double take which pleased her. Oh, well…

KQµårk 死神 : Absolutely AdLib Romney only polls well now because he’s got name recognition without the scrutiny.

ChrisR266 : Anytime Murph, any time.

Sabreen60 : Well both Santorium and Newt are playing the Welfare Queen card non-stop. Oh yeah, and I am now blah as is President Obama and 40 million others. I didn’t know we had blah people in this country.

MurphTheSurf3 : Chris- the Force? Love Star Wars, but the Force is just retread Animism. I am a Christian Humanist (all the values, none of the bullshit).

AdLib : KQ – I agree, ROmney is touted to be the stronger candidate because of the meaningless head-to-head polls out there but when you consider how he will smother enthusiasm, even in those opposing Obama, he is not strong in reality. I mean, many Baggers hate Obama primarily for the ACA…yet Romney instituted ROmneycare! How enthusiastic will they be to replace a moderate with a moderate?

ChrisR266 : Choice: That’s what I find so intriguing about OH-IO. The major media arms (except the PD) are all owned by Conservative Republican families. Yet the state is less conservative than you would surmise by reading their rags.

Chernynkaya : Agreed KQ. They will spin how popular Romney is. But I do like that the crazees are getting lots of air time. Indies can’t be that extreme–if they really ARE Indies and there’s debate about that. The porblem for me personally is that it is terribly upsetting to have to hear all this shite from the candidates. It makes me despair and ashamed.

choicelady : Murph – I agree. They will pull out one another’s WORST attributes. Sabreen – Santorum says he won’t ask for contraception to be outlawed. That’s the ONLY thing he will tolerate of which he personally disapproves. Might white of him.

KQµårk 死神 : Good point CL and it looks like Santorum actually won IA. I knew there would be some kind of “miscount” just to make it look like Romney won.

MurphTheSurf3 : Chris…great tip on the Dispatch article.

KQµårk 死神 : Lest I not forget FL.

KQµårk 死神 : Yeah but that just means Santorum will lose SC and I don’t see anyone going into Super Tuesday if that happens besides Paul. It’s pretty favorable for Romney after SC with NV and MI.

choicelady : KQ – I can’t think back further than 2008, but it’s my impression that whoever wins the GOP in Iowa is almost certain to die as a candidate. Not so for the Dems, but for the GOP, yes.

ChrisR266 : Sabreen: You are correct about Santorum. He sees no separation and is saying so day after day.

choicelady : Chris – that’s freaking amazing about Bellevue (I know it slightly)! I’d have thought people would be more conservative. In Youngstown they are solid for Obama, but the Vindicator is SO RW – it supported SB 2 and never hesitates to excoriate public employees who, incidentally, are the only subscribers. Beware of your wishes, Vindy – you could lose everything!

KQµårk 死神 : Cher I think nominating Romney costs them at least a million votes with the base if not more. I just think they will close ranks and we won’t hear about it that much.

Sabreen60 : I read that Santorium is against contraception because it is the position of the Catholic Church. Therefore, as President he would be against contraception. There is no separation between church and state in his mind.

MurphTheSurf3 : KQ I want Santorum, Perry and Gingrich to stay alive. My gut is that they will get crazier and draw more and more crazies out of the woodwork. I do not think anyone can beat the Rom because the insider, kingmakers want someone respectable who will likely lose and lay the groundwork for the one of their winners. They need to begin the process of washing away the memory of nutsy GOP. I do not want that memory to fade.

AdLib : And if the economy continues to get better, even in small ways, it will take a huge amount of wind out of Romney’s and the Repub’s sails…and put it into Obama’s. I mean, if the economy is improving, what else does Romney have to run on? That he wants to go to war with Iran and China?

KQµårk 死神 : We’ll have to see AdLib. I remember thinking McCain did not have a shot in hell winning SC with Huckabee in the race and I was wrong.

ChrisR266 : Murph: Glad to find a kindred soul. I have found my home and solace with The Force.

choicelady : AB – even though I work for a faith organization, only Bible verse I know (other than the 23 Psalm) is “Jesus wept”. You’d be amazed how often that comes in handy…

Chernynkaya : The thing about Romney that I’m pretty sure about is that he won’t get the ground troops Obama will. The Obama haters will vote, but they won’t get out the vote, and that’s even better down-ticket.

Sabreen60 : AdLid: Yep it was on Rachel’s show.

AlphaBitch : CL: Amen to Sue’s work

ChrisR266 : Choice and Murph: There was an interesting article in the Dispatch today, about Bellevue, OH (up in far north central OH). The tenor there is interesting. Few of them are against Obama. They will either vote for him or are resigned to the reality that he should be given another term. They don’t as yet blame him for the sorry state of the nation, and are willing to keep him at the helm. I was surprised by that, and I know it killed the owners of the Dispatch to have to print it.

AdLib : KQ – Polls taken right after a primary can be very misleading. I remember the NH polls after Obama won IA and he was well ahead of Hillary in NH…but Hillary won NH.

choicelady : Murph – Sue is doing GREAT things for us on her religion in politics series indeed!

KQµårk 死神 : Though I would have to check to make sure because I could be conflating two of them.

choicelady : Chris – I am working with longtime Vatican II folks, social justice, ecumenism, the works – and they are just as horrified as you about the tenor of the church today.

AlphaBitch : Cl: yeppers. I can thump the Bible right back when needed. And I’m a loud thumper.

KQµårk 死神 : I’m recall seeing three AdLib one had him over 40, another just under 40 and another in his usual 26% ballpark.

choicelady : AB – Matthew 6 is a real bragging stopper isn’t it! Always a good one to bring out for the tub thumpers.

AdLib : Sabreen, I saw that on Maddow tonight. Also, her interview with that NH newspaper editor who said that there is no enthusiasm this time. Romney may win but he has no army.

MurphTheSurf3 : Chris- I am a former as well.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- Sue in California series speaks to all of this very well.

KQµårk 死神 : At this point Gingrich and Perry need to stand down after SC for Santorum to have a chance.

AlphaBitch : CL: and when push comes to shove, I always do the Matthew 5:6 (or is it 6:5?) about praying in private. That puts the quiet in ’em pretty fast.

Sabreen60 : I saw a few folks interviewed in NH and they didn’t like Santorum’s interaction with the audience. The folks I saw interviewed said they were more offended by his condescending demeanor than his stance of gay marriage.

ChrisR266 : Murph: I understand. And it is exactly why I am no longer a practicing Catholic. I’m completely done with the 21st century vaticanl.

choicelady : Murph – this “new” Catholic is actually infiltrated Pentacostalism. It’s been hijacked by the New Apostolic Reformation, and the church is worried. And should be.

Chernynkaya : Chris, honestly, every single thing about them is abhorrent to me.

AdLib : KQ – I think that SC poll is an outlier, just after Romney won in IA. It can flip on him just as quickly if the debates go poorly for him this weekend. I doubt Romney really leads in SC by that amount, those are suspect numbers.

AlphaBitch : CL: I’m speaking of my Afghan chirren.

choicelady : AB – I have encountered NO Sunni/Shia divide here within a very diverse Muslim community. For me, working with a Protestant group,it’s all between those of us in the mainline denominations and the real “Christians” who think we’re also the devil incarnate. REAL nasty internal fights within the broad base of Christianity. Best to stay OUT of it if you can.

ChrisR266 : Cher: I agree. It’s why they loathe him I find most abhorrent.

KQµårk 死神 : Cher bingo you are right. I’m totally in that camp now. I see the repugs falling in line per usual but there is real dissent for Romney, but the GOP establishment will make them pay if they are too vocal about it.

AlphaBitch : AL: Reel it in, bro.

Chernynkaya : AL GROAn!

ChrisR266 : Choice: Yes. I understand.

Sabreen60 : Hey Quark: I think Santorum has a chance in SC, but Mitt will more than likely win.

AdLib : CL – I’m awaiting the next fish pun with baited breath.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL, Chris, As one who knows he RCatholic Church very well, I can say with assurance that Santorum represents a growing consensus in the hierarchy of that Church. He is the “new” Catholic they are trying to shape- doctrinaire, dogmatic, absolute, – a loyal remnant from whom they can build a new, by which they mean old, church.

AlphaBitch : CL: It’s all so very sad. I work with religious divides and all that with the Sunni/Shia thing. Don’t want any more with Christianity. Although I’m pretty happy with the Essenes at the moment.

choicelady : Hey bito – I see you up there. Hope you’re well?

AdLib : Santorum has a good shot at staying in the race as the anti-Romney after SC if Perry and Newt bail. But Romney will win in the end because he has the money and the establishment behind him and as Newt learned, in the GOP, you can’t beat them.

Chernynkaya : I still maintain that for most Repubs, their loathing of Obama trumps almost everything.

KQµårk 死神 : I was pretty surprised by the latest polls in SC. Romney has shattered that 30% ceiling.

choicelady : AdLib and all – the jokes are sounding pretty fishy to me.

choicelady : AB – I find it fascinating that the religious right like Santorum since they think the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon. Very odd, IMHO, for them to brush THAT under the rug.

AlphaBitch : AL: Win.

AdLib : AB – He had been no good for quite a whale.

Chernynkaya : I think he should have skipped NH and focused on SC–good chance there.

choicelady : Chris – and his second tri abortion gets swept under the rug because they “tried” to save it at first – then opted to do whatever would save Karen’s life. But no one else can do that. Only them.

AlphaBitch : KQ: Me

KQµårk 死神 : Anyone think Sanctorum has a chance in SC?

Chernynkaya : AB, ouch! LOL

choicelady : AdLib – justice by munching? I’m not sure it will catch on for human felons.

AlphaBitch : AL: He had no porpoise in life, right?

choicelady : Chris – the one thing about escorting women into clinics in Buffalo (turned out we were Ground Zero for several years) is that I’ve seen ’em all. None of them much bothers me anymore, but I do always keep my back to the wall at all times around them. Catholic or not, they all are weird and scary.

AdLib : AB – My tilapia was a known felon who held up a number of sardines and broke into a school of minnows, stealing their scales for drug dealing purposes no doubt. He was sentanced to be sauteed and eaten. I believe in justice, it’s so tasty.

ChrisR266 : BRB

ChrisR266 : I also think it is convenient that Santorum espouses his Catholicism in campaign rhetoric while really practicing in a way that is inconsistent (and much more reactionary) than the vast majority of Catholics practice the faith.

KQµårk 死神 : It’s allot like tilapia in flavor and texture. It’s called Swai too.

choicelady : AL – LOL!!! But we might win on the basis of hunger attraction?

AdLib : CL – Heh! Good think I didn’t name it TUNA.

choicelady : AB – then do NOT Google them! They are pretty insignificant as a presence. I’ve run afoul of them in anti-abortion conflicts, but otherwise, they’re pretty isolated.

ChrisR266 : Choice: I thought the tongue speakers were scary, but you’re right about the SSPX. They got the money.

AlphaBitch : AL: Who’d your tilapia kill? And swabia sounds like something my doctor would be said to tell me I had.

choicelady : AdLib – yikes. Tilapia. Good thing we renamed the initiative. It was always making me hungry.

AlphaBitch : CL; I can’t take any more scary right now.

Chernynkaya : BRB…

AdLib : KQ – Had some killer tilapia earlier this week.

choicelady : AB – SSPX as we call ’em, are scary awful. Benedict actually has readmitted them to the fold. They were SO extremist that they got kicked out. They have power and money up the wazoo though. You should Google them. Scary lot.

KQµårk 死神 : AL

KQµårk 死神 : A nice light fish AD.

AlphaBitch : I don’t know from swabia either.

AlphaBitch : CL: Never even heard of this group! Frightening.

AdLib : KQ – Swabia?

Chernynkaya : KQ waht is swabia?

choicelady : KQ – what’ blackened Swabia? Is that a fish? Never had it.

choicelady : I’d LOVE to find out Santorum is Society of St. Pius X since they are massive extremists (James Kopp, the assassin of Dr. Slepian, is one) and outlawed by the church. So he will likely never fess up. But he shares their world view.

KQµårk 死神 : Back just had to close a few browser windows. The blackened Swabia my wife made was delicious though.

Chernynkaya : CL–that’s all good, if it makes Mitt move even FUTHER Right.

AdLib : I think it has to be Romney but I want to see the RR back a candidate to hound him for a while and force him even farther to the right. Then again, having the primary as a done deal so early on could really kill enthusiasm and engagement for Repub voters.

AlphaBitch : AND grumpy!

Chernynkaya : McCain is senile for realz.

AlphaBitch : Cher: Oh dear. Now THAT’S an “oops”. Maybe even an “oopsy”

ChrisR266 : Choice: Dei, but I trust your knowledge. And, I have the same inclinations you do about his choices.

choicelady : Chris – I’ve seen reference to Santorum being Opus Dei. But I don’t recall where.

Chernynkaya : Agree Chris! But I think they mention it vis a vis the Evangelical vote–kinda to say they would vote for a Catholic over a Mormon.

AdLib : Cher – Then McCain came out against the Civil Rights Act, saying it would tear the country apart.

choicelady : Cher – I don’t disagree that Rom will probably prevail – but Santorum will be hard on Rom’s heels.

ChrisR266 : Choice: I haven’t seen the ref to Opus

ChrisR266 : Hi Alpha: No, I do not think he is and Opus Dei.

choicelady : Chris – he’s Opus Dei and possible SSPX if you know it. I want to ask – if you’re freaking Catholic, why’d you homeschool your kids instead of supporting the local parochial school? I just want him to say they were too liberal!

Chernynkaya : McCain introduced Romney: President Obama will fix this country! Obama is the best! Oops, I meant President ROMNEY.

AlphaBitch : Chris: Is he an Opus Dei Catholic?

Sabreen60 : Cherm, I heard it and nearly fell off my chair Poor McCain – he really needs to bow out.

ChrisR266 : May I just say one thing about Santorum? His brand of reactionary, pentecostal Catholicism is in no way indicative or representative of Catholics as a whole in this nation. Something like 40% of us “Catholics” don’t practice our rituals on a regular basis. I get real mad when the MSM decides to mention that he’s Catholic in every sentence without mentioning that he’s a rabid, minority catholic.

AdLib : Cher – Yes, hilarious!

choicelady : Hi AB – lovely to see you! Murph was just putting out his Santorum signs, but AL said it should say “Ooops”. I think that was Perry, but y’know – it doesn’t much matter…

Chernynkaya : CL, must disagree, sadly. Rom is the nom.

AlphaBitch : Cher – do tell!

AdLib : CL – That’s who AB wanted to put a sign out for, Perry.

Chernynkaya : Speaking of OOPS, didja all hear how McGrumpy introduced Romney?

choicelady : AdLib – isn’t “Ooops” Perry’s motto? Could be confusing.

AlphaBitch : Hola all! “Oops, I did it again?”

choicelady : Cher – I think Sanctorum (lovely spelling) just might pull it off. One problem – he’s promising “reindustrializ ation” that even Ed Schultz fell for, and that could draw a lot of younger blue collar conservaDems to him who don’t pay close attention to “do it by giving ZERO taxes to corporations”.

AdLib : Hey AB! Just put out a sign that says, “OOPS!”, they’ll get the idea.

Sabreen60 : Hi AB and Murph!

Chernynkaya : Heh! Hiya AB!

AlphaBitch : Hola troops. I’d put out a Perry sign, but nobody here could spell it OR read it!

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…not really. He is just the most repugnant rethug out there right now.

AdLib : Hey Murph! Just make sure you wash with anti-bacterial soap after touching a Santorum sign.

choicelady : Murph – LOL!!! Protective cover is always good! So you’re a stealth Santorum guy, eh?

Chernynkaya : Murph- Hi! and good work. I sooo wish Sanctorum would win.

ChrisR266 : Hi Sabreen!

Sabreen60 : CL,

AdLib : I guess, when God tells you to run for president, you shouldn’t rationalize away his chuckles.

ChrisR266 : Ha! Choice: caught the Robertson thing late last evening. If he wasn’t such a repulsive human being, I might find it humorous. I am offended wholly by that man.

choicelady : Sabreen – that was Sabreen. Dyslexia of the fingers.

MurphTheSurf3 : Hello All. I was outside putting all of my Santorum for President signs in the ground……well I am going to vote in the GOP primary here in Mo. so I thought I should try to look authentic….He is making quite a pitch here. Unbelievable.

Chernynkaya : Happy New Year, Sabreen!!

Chernynkaya : AL-Of course! Santorum is definitely the antiChrist.

choicelady : Abreen! Lovely to see you and Happy New Year to you, too!

AdLib : Hey Sabreen! Happy New Year to you!

choicelady : AdLib. Yes.

Sabreen60 : Happy New Year Everyone!

AdLib : SO if God selected the GOP field, does that prove he’s a Dem?

choicelady : Chris – the only “news” is Pat Robertson saying God told him who will win the presidency but not to tell us. AdLib pointed out that God always blogs HERE. I say Pat’s hearing voices again.

Chernynkaya : I know, CL, He just likes messin with her.

Chernynkaya : And this year’s Rose Parade wasn’t even as sunny as usual. Yesterday and today, almost 80.

choicelady : Cher – I always was suspicious that Michelle said God told her to run. He would not promote a certifiable dingbat.

ChrisR266 : Choice: I learned long ago what a week Morning Glory really is.

AdLib : Cher – All the WI and OR folks were out here for the Rose Bowl, they were in heaven.

ChrisR266 : Uh, I mean “no” news friday–yuck.

choicelady : Chris – wow – that’s warmer than Sacramento. Our days are warm, but our nights are frosty. At least it’s killing off the damn morning glory that takes over every year. This year we’re hunting it down and ripping it out. ONE plant – the entire neighborhood is infested.

ChrisR266 : It was a now news Friday here, so if anything REALLY good happened today, y’all have to fill me in.

Chernynkaya : Al and to think of all the candidates who said God told them to run. God must like humiliating them–what a card God is!

choicelady : AdLib – Shows good taste on God’s part. Thank heaven, so to speak, God’s got caller ID.

ChrisR266 : Choice: It is a balmy 48 here this evening! Atypically warm, as we have been so far all this season.

AdLib : CL – Pat’s making it all up at this point. God mentioned that he never picks up anymore when he sees Pat’s caller ID.

choicelady : Cher – hope you did not get splinters! But that’s always fun!

Chernynkaya : CL, and AL, let’s nit tell anyone how OUR weather is.

choicelady : Hi Chris – lovely to see you! How’s the weather in your neck of the woods?

ChrisR266 : Hey, Choice, Cher and AdLib! Good to read ya.

choicelady : ADLib – I thought of course God would Reveal All here – he’s always done that in the past. Pat must be having the DTs.

AdLib : Hi Chris! Welcome!

Chernynkaya : Hey Chris!

Chernynkaya : Slid down the banister,CL.

choicelady : Cher – that sounds wonderful! I’m so glad you got to do that.

ChrisR266 : Hi, y’all! Hope everybody is well.

AdLib : CL – I happen to know that God will blog here when He wants to share hints about who will be the next President. Don’t know who Pat was talking to but it wasn’t Him.

Chernynkaya : Great AL! Back from the annual Hawaii vacay. And you know how lazy I get there.

choicelady : Cher – yes, you got down here in record time! I’m impressed!

Chernynkaya : Hi CL! Balcony? I’m now in the first row.

choicelady : Hi Cher!

AdLib : CHER! How are you doing/

choicelady : Hey – Chris, Murph, Cher – see you up there in the balcony! Hi!

Chernynkaya : Hey everyone! How’s tricks?

choicelady : AdLib – Eh – today was a day. It’s been a nutso week, and I’m soooo glad it’s Friday!

choicelady : I hope you all are duly impressed that today God told Pat Robertson who will be president. God told Pat not to share which seems rather un-Godlike, IMHO…

KQµårk 死神 : just got dinner be back

AdLib : CL – Yes, all is well over my way. How about you, good day today?

choicelady : Hi KQ – lovely to see you!

choicelady : AdLib – how are you? I hope you had a great day of your own.

KQµårk 死神 : you got it AD

choicelady : You movie buffs leave people such as I in th DUST!

AdLib : Hey CL! Great to see you tonight!

choicelady : Evening everyone – great to see you all!

AdLib : Heh! Sure do! “They killed Cyrus! It was them! The Warriors!”

KQµårk 死神 : In the voice from the cult movie villian in “The Warriors” bito “come out to playay” (while clinking beer bottles). I know AdLib will get the reference.

AdLib : KQ! You beat me! How are ya?

AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” when you arrive!

KQµårk 死神 : First!

AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!