• AdLib : Well Abby, looks like we’re closing the Vox Populi bar tonight. Thanks so much for helping to make it another enlightening chat and thanks to everyone else for making that happen too. See you soon and hopefully next Friday, same bat time, same bat channel! Have a great weekend!

  • AdLib : And “Kill the Monster!”

  • AdLib : Reminds me of the story of the Golem or Frankenstein. Man creates something to benefit himself but that thing is also what can effectively destroy him. This corrupt version of capitalism is a Frankenstein and it did what is its nature to do in 2008. Unfortunately, it is likely to do so again, until the people rise up with torches and pitchforks.

  • Abbyrose86 : Thanks Adlib!

  • Abbyrose86 : Man is but a mere mortal….thus life is finite…life should not be lived in subservience of others.

  • AdLib : Like it Abby!

  • Abbyrose86 : oops…working for MOST men…than the problem is NOT with man…but with the concept than man created. :)

  • Abbyrose86 : Adlib, I couldn’t agree more! Our economic system as it is today, is NOT working for the majority of folks…and as such it is causing great hardship in other factions of our lives. Here is an abbyism….”bus iness as well as other man made constructs exist to benefit MAN…mankind does NOT exist to benefit business or other man made constructs…as a result IF a man made construct is NOT

  • AdLib : If the consolidated wealth of corporations was more fairly distributed amongst the American people, I think we’d see many of these severe problems resolved or within reach of solving.

  • AdLib : Night Sally, really pleased you were able to join us in real time tonight! Have a nice weekend!

  • AdLib : We know that a bad diet can lead to obesity…but that’s not where it stops. Diabetes, heart disease, strokes, all of these other serious ailments stem from a core problem that is treatable. I do feel that at the root of most problems from joblessness to affording retirement, from education to Medicare and in and on, all comes down to a corrupt economic system that oppresses Americans.

  • SallyT : Well, Mansion (great dane) is demanding my attention. And, when he wants it you better give it. See you guys later. It has been fun.

  • Abbyrose86 : Good night Tex…it was a pleasure’ meeting’ up with you tonight!

  • Abbyrose86 : Adlib…Thank you for putting it that way…what a perfect example. Our society has our priorities mixed up and as a result we are not functioning properly. Sadly, many of our our young are suffering as a result.

  • AdLib : Nite Tex, enjoyed the chat! Don’t forget to lift with your legs, save that back!

  • AdLib : Abby – When a part of our body isn’t functioning properly, other parts can be affected and begin operating poorly. Society is no different, when one area is undermined, the effect on many other areas can ripple out. At the core of racism, poor education, healthcare, etc., it’s all about economic inequality.

  • texliberal : Goodnite all, it’s been my pleasure. Have to trim back a couple of 20 foot live oaks in the backyard tomorrow per instructions from my boss. I’ve been promising her for weeks. If ya don’t hear from me for awhile it’s because I’ll be in a body cast at a local hospital.

  • SallyT : Tex, I grew up in the 50’s, too. Although my mom wasn’t June Clever, she never went out without a hat and gloves. We always dressed up to go to town. Things were different.

  • Abbyrose86 : Again Adlib…BINGO… wealth inequality leads to social disorder…which creates an underclass of citizens who are unable to reach their full potential as citizens!

  • AdLib : AD – That is the way of The Planet, Grasshopper. Peace be with you!

  • ADONAI : It just came to me after I logged off. we just had a long, extensive conversation on education, FULL OF DISAGREEMENT, and not one person was insulted or verbally berated. Doesn’t anyone else find that WEIRD?! Great place. Nite folks!

  • AdLib : Night Khirad! See you soon!

  • AdLib : Night AD! Have a great weekend!

  • Abbyrose86 : Ah…Adlib…exa ctly!!1 OUR society and culture are messed up and are NOT handling our collective responsibilities properly

  • texliberal : Exactly Abbey. I grew up in the 50’s and Ward and June Cleaver were a figment of someone’s imagination

  • AdLib : Tex – Yes, this is the evil of a system that oppresses and drains parents just to earn enough to live on. It results in the neglect of their children and when they grow up into the same or likely worse standard of living, the neglect is passed on. Another argument for why the economic inequity in our society is the cause of so many of our problems.

  • Abbyrose86 : WANT to…but they are not able…they are human after all.

  • AdLib : Khirad – This is a big problem with our society. If parents don’t have certain intellectual skills, they can’t pass them onto their kids. But school isn’t designed to teach certain, more subjective and personal things to kids. So how do they acquire skills like critical thinking and reason? If they don’t learn it from the society around them, if our society functions on greed and selfishness, that is unfortunately what they’ll learn. If our society reflects reason and compassion, that is what they’ll learn. This is why I think that the slavery of our society to the superficial profoundly harms successive generations.

  • Abbyrose86 : Tex you bring up a good point, many parents are exhausted and can’t put in the time necessary…it’ s not that they don’t W

  • SallyT : Adonai, it has been fun playing with you again. See you tomorrow! Have a good rest of the night.

  • ADONAI : “Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school.” ~Albert Einstein

  • Khirad : I’m going with AD. See y’all later at another battime and batchannel.

  • texliberal : Nite AD

  • ADONAI : Well kids, it is far past my bedtime. I must be going. Just mail my taco dinner to me. Good night folks. Peace be with you.

  • Khirad : And yes, school is about acquiring information, but since I had critical thinking skills, and questions, I knew that information was often bullshit. Shouldn’t we be teaching more than how to regurgitate test answers?

  • Abbyrose86 : As a parent, I found the whole school thing to be quite an education for myself as a parent. My kids had a very diverse experience. I had them in Catholic parochial schools, private schools an public schools. City and suburban…and I know this will come as a shock… {:)}BUT, I WAS always involved regardless what type of school they attended….I’m kinda bitchy and don’t take “this is the way we do it’ for an answer…..espec ially when my kids are involved….I found IF I insisted on something…rega rdless of the school….I usually got my way,.

  • SallyT : And, there are so many interesting things in our history. Lots of war games! Mysteries! Hidden treasures, too.

  • ADONAI : Indeed Sally. You have to make it interesting.

  • texliberal : AdLib, too many single parent and even two parent households working two, three jobs to get by. They’re exhausted and have little time to really get involved in their children’s education

  • ADONAI : To say school is just about learning is dishonest. You learn two things at school. Your book learning and your social skills. parents aren’t there. So who leads?

  • Khirad : Okay, but how will kids learn critical thinking if their parents never learned it, then?

  • SallyT : My grandsons know more old rock bands than I can ever remember from the Guitar Hero!

  • AdLib : I remember playing Masterpiece as a kid and learning about art. Video games can be educational too, not just about what a chain gun is.

  • SallyT : Adonai, you first got to get their interest and that is a start.

  • ADONAI : Educational gaming is a multi billion dollar industry though. They probably don’t need our endorsements :)

  • SallyT : Khirad, exactly. Education does need to move with the times. I learned the Founding Fathers in a coloring book.

  • AdLib : Chris’ point was well taken, too many parents look to schools to teach skills and abilities that they should be instilling in their kids. I don’t expect school to teach my daughter about critical thinking, if they do, great, but I feel that is something I need to teach her. Same with being independent, making good decisions through reason, etc. School is about acquiring information, Parents should be the primary ones honing a child’s sense of the world around them and how to respond to it.

  • ADONAI : I learned a lot of history from video games. It’s no substitute but it is helpful.

  • Khirad : Ditto on family line of teachers and what I hear from them, AD.

  • Abbyrose86 : THE great ones are really awesome…sadly there are some bad ones too…who only “do” the status quo or don’t want to rock the boat…I’ve encountered both and many in between in the years when my kids were in school.

  • Khirad : Laugh, but why not put it in video games, I mean, I remember playing Oregon Trail. Of course, we can’t give up on bare bones learning, but why not? Kinetic learning is real too.

  • ADONAI : AL _ I don’t count on schools to raise my kids. I count on them to teach them. Not shove them along like parts on an assembly line. I come from a family of teachers. I only echo what I hear form them.

  • Abbyrose86 : The

  • Abbyrose86 : Ad, there are some GREAT teachers out there, I am fortunate to know some

  • Khirad : AdLib, yes, there’s lots of lovely teachers. One of them I’ll never forget, who did encourage us to be ourselves and think. The administration drove him to depression and eventually forced him out. Teachers are not the problem here.

  • AdLib : Sleep well, Chris!

  • ADONAI : tex, It’d be my last school board meeting. that’s for sure.

  • SallyT : You put history in a few good video games and they will learn why Paul Revere road that horse thru town.

  • AdLib : AD – That may be your experience but it is just that. I mentioned my daughter’s teachers, I can speak too to a number of other children of friends who are bright and independently minded. There is an overall element of conformity to every facet of society, from fashion to entertainment, etc. It is the PARENTS’ job to teach independence and critical thinking to their kids though, depending on schools to raise one’s kids is lazy and irresponsible.

  • texliberal : Run Adonai run, I don’t care how far I’ve got to drive I want to be present for your first school board meeting.

  • Khirad : Dewey, that’s right. And while Pink Floyd is certainly more about the British (or even rote systems of the Far East), our school systems are still about conformity, one learning style, with an emphasis and value placed on left brained thinking.

  • ChrisR266 : Golden slumbers to you all.

  • Abbyrose86 : Chris, agreed..the education system today is messed up…the wrong concepts are being taught…and the schools have become responsible for the actual parenting…some thing is seriously amiss!

  • ADONAI : peace chris!

  • ChrisR266 : At this juncture, I must go, friends.

  • ADONAI : AL- the curriculum is my problem. Not the teachers saddled with it.

  • AdLib : Abby – I do agree that schools aren’t really very good at teaching critical thinking which is the only defense against corporate domination through propaganda. At the same time, I wouldn’t say they are about conformity. My daughter had a wonderful 2nd grade teacher this year, a younger woman with passion and concern for her students. Many teachers out there are like that. Unfortunately, due to simple-minded politicians, too much time is spent on the standardized testing instead of teaching history and critical thinking.

  • ADONAI : I thought about running for school board. It’d be pretty easy here. I just have no resume.

  • Abbyrose86 : I told my kids…to get through the system…take THEIR tests and pass them…BUT come to me for a REAL education…than kfully THEY did listen!

  • ChrisR266 : I am loathe to make this conversation shift to education, but everyone must realize something. Over the last 30 years, this nation has shifted the onus for growing up children into adults to the public education system. From discipline, sex education, to value formation and decent breakfasts, the public education system has been saddled with it all.

  • Khirad : AdLib, I’m not kidding about that. Semester of civics, semester of personal finance, and three consecutive years of American history broken up into periods. Also – in my dream world, current events or world history or geography – take your pick, would be required electives. I believe fervently this would make the country a better place than Advanced Algebra and Chemistry – though there’s a place for those, of course.

  • ADONAI : AL – i didn’t bring up the song, tex did. And it is very much our educational system. You are a number.

  • texliberal : ADONAI, it’s called local school boards. Teach diversity in Texas and you won’t be teaching long. Goes back to my contention about local politics and local elections. We get less than a 10% turnout for school board elections

  • Abbyrose86 :

  • Abbyrose86 : I got in so much trouble with the school board locally…for insisting my children learn the truth…seriousl y. I was having a fight every other day, with the administration.. .and I supposedly live in a top school district’/syste m….but I was appalled at what my kids were learning or NOT as the case may be…so I added books and learning materials to their curriculum….th at I didn’t expect them to be tested on!

  • AdLib : AD – Have to agree with Tex, “Another Brick in the Wall” is just a song about the British educational system in the 1950’s, not descriptive of education in America today.

  • ADONAI : I got in a ton of trouble for questioning the answer in a teacher’s edition. Found out later that I was right. The problem had 2 answers.

  • ChrisR266 : Khirad: Thank Dewey for the shift in the early 1900s.

  • Abbyrose86 : Bingo Adonai..it’s about conformity…not critical thinking.

  • ADONAI : Indeed Khirad. Indeed. “preparing you for the world”.

  • Abbyrose86 : Bingo

  • ADONAI : Chris, that’s fine. It doesn’t take to everyone. But nothing about our public school system screams “individualism “. Only conformity. Everyone looking, acting, and learning the same thing the same way.

  • AdLib : Khirad – As disconnected as that may seem to some, I think 3 years of history classes would make a huge impact and difference in the upcoming generation and their society. Without context, what’s going on day after day at the hands of the GOP and Corps has little meaning to those who don’t know the past.

  • Khirad : Yup AD, and actually, that’s history. The education system was shifted from Classical to churning out yes men bureaucrats and desk jockeys early on. It was certainly NOT about producing pupils and citizens with questioning, critical thinking skills.

  • ChrisR266 : Khirad: The same discussion has been occuring in my school district. Parents are disturbed that nothing all seemed to have happened after WWII.

  • Abbyrose86 : Thank you Khirad…our educational concepts are messed up

  • ADONAI : tex,Kinda

  • ChrisR266 : ADONAI: I don’t and can’t believe that. I couldn’t do what I do if I did. I’d rather die.

  • texliberal : ADONAI, wasn’t that a Pink Floyd tune?

  • Abbyrose86 : And on to another rant…why is thinking considered a bad thing in our culture??? SO many ‘believe’ but don’t think’…and that ridiculous concept is encouraged…ser iously..HOW can that be good????

  • Khirad : Why American History in one year? Why instead of doing it in 5th, 8th and 10th or 11th don’t we do three years in High School where you actually make it past the Civil War. Who do you know that even got to WWII?

  • AdLib : Night Chase! Take care!

  • ChrisR266 : Tex, LMAO!

  • AdLib : Night Sabreen! Good seeing you at VP!

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: I’d be on that roof with you.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib. I

  • Abbyrose86 : Adlib….I concur. For all the bitching about Obama….there are so many who don’t realize how bad it could have been or where we could have been, in other hands. Obama is a practical man….he thinks logically….act ually let me rephrase that HE THINKS…period. Sadly too many others don[‘t…they ‘believe’…an d don’t think!

  • AdLib : Night CL! Have a terrific weekend!

  • ADONAI : you don’t go to school to learn. You go to school to be taught how to conform.

  • ChrisR266 : Evening, Chase!

  • texliberal : I live in Texas Chris, I have to sneak Howard Zinn into the state in the trunk of my car

  • ChrisR266 : Good night, Sabreen.

  • AdLib : Chris – So true, the RW plays the victim card endlessly. Sarah Palin is their poster child. As she fails upwardly, a millionaire celebrity who can dominate the media just by riding a bus, she is a victim. Corporations are victims. The wealthy are victims. It’s insane.

  • ChrisR266 : Tex: agreed. Have you seen a high school american history text recently? Vietnam war in one paragraph. Cold war in less than one paragraph. No substantial mention of Watergate.

  • SallyT : And, it was the young marching for civil rights and women rights. We need the young involved.

  • Abbyrose86 : NIght Chase!

  • texliberal : Sally, AGREED

  • SallyT : Tex, if there was a draft now, we would see them marching now on the wars we have going.

  • ChrisR266 : Sleep well, choice!

  • AdLib : CL – If McCain won I may be living on your roof right now. Actually, I’d probably be living in Canada or (if I could afford it) France. The US would have been smashed up into pieces. He would have killed the auto industry by letting it go bankrupt, no stimulus would have driven us into a Great Depression and who knows if we would be bombing Iran and in ground wars across the ME.

  • Khirad : I remember last week Zakaria asked a multiple choice question posed to high schoolers. There was only one reasonable answer among them. It was who else was the major player in the Korean War besides the Koreas and US (never minding UN and such). Only a third identified China. -+–So why was I actually impressed? How about a semester of civics and semester of personal finance. How many problems would that solve alone?

  • ADONAI : nite chase!

  • Abbyrose86 : I think we have to look at our culture as a whole, to realize where the problems really lie…I seem to recall a wise axiom, about societies electing those they deserve…sadly our society today is Not involved in the political process enough and too centered on selfishness and self centered goals…in addition to superfluous concepts…I fear, those two ideals will be our downfall, as a nation.

  • ADONAI : nite Sabreen!

  • chasethis : Patio and Bill Maher calling. Good night, sweethearts, it’s time to go.

  • Sabreen60 : Nite CL and everyone. I’ve got an early morning so I need to get some sleep. Take care everyone.

  • ChrisR266 : Choice: Indeed. What they don’t have is a defensible ground of their own. They are always “not” something. That is exhausting and terribly swamp like ideological ground. If we ask them what they are for, they first say what they are not, and THEN spout things that get their own constituents very wary and uncomfortable. A sucky place to be practically and rhetorically if you’re in politics, eh?

  • ADONAI : Change can only come from the people. No politician has ever brought great change. Not without the people.

  • SallyT : Tex, yes we did and we marched and got a war over.

  • texliberal : Sally, we had the DRAFT

  • SallyT : It was the young out matching in my day and we got a lot of changes done.

  • chasethis : Who needs a mute button when we have fingers to put in our ears?

  • AdLib : Chris – And as mentioned below, this is why the Repubs have a war on education and intellectualism. DUmb sheep are easy to herd, scare them, anger them, they’ll go where you want. That’s their vision of America.

  • Khirad : Night CL

  • ADONAI : Nite choice!

  • texliberal : One of the reasons too many young stay away from the polls is that REAL history and civics seem to be an after thought in public schools.

  • choicelady : Well all this defection to sleepyhead land is getting to me. I think I’m packing it in. Good night to all! Sweet dreams and a very happy weekend.

  • ADONAI : A mute button would be AWESOME!

  • chasethis : Khirad: can’t you fix that + and – thing?

  • Khirad : Oh yeah, and a mute button.

  • ADONAI : Indeed Abby. as long as we have free elections, there can be no one else to blame.

  • Khirad : If only there were + and – buttons for everything. That’d be the life.

  • Abbyrose86 : Sally, you make a great point…the young are a great avenue for real change.

  • chasethis : texlib: Polly Unsaturated? I think I had a class with her!

  • texliberal : Chase, polly-unsaturate d.

  • AdLib : Hey Sabreen!

  • AdLib : Sally – In the bottom right hand corner of the message box you’ll see a “+” and a “-” . You can click on those to adjust the size of the message box so you don’t have to scroll to read and type comments.

  • Abbyrose86 : I agree Adonai, it’s not just politicians who are to blame…they are an easy scapegoat for a much larger problem

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: Yes, you are correct. But the young need the big things to “un isolate” them. The popular culture gives them an out by pointing out their “just college students” position in society. They will be there in 2012.

  • chasethis : Good to see you, AdLib.

  • choicelady : Chris – I have to agree about the defensive and angry GOP. Do you ever see them SMILE? Really smile? They are always angry, even when they have power. It’s exhausting to discriminate – you have to keep control of those whom you’ve left out. It’s exhausting to hate those with whom you disagree – it takes so much energy. It’s exhausting to give differential privileges – you have to spend SO much time pretending you’re really egalitarian. No wonder they look so tired and grumpy!

  • chasethis : texliberal, are those gluten/lactose free diets?

  • Abbyrose86 : I agree Adonai…it

  • ADONAI : Democrats also have more registered voters than Republicans. Yet more Republicans vote.

  • AdLib : Hey Chase! Nice to see ya!

  • SallyT : AdLib, that is it exactly, getting the young to vote! The young have drove home many changes in this country. We need them!

  • texliberal : Chase, we live in Texas. I blame the Ramen Noodle Vienna Sausage diets. FRIED of course.

  • AdLib : Funk – You or any members can always feel free to email me, asking to have their email forwarded to another member and I’m happy to do so. As the recipient, I always express that no one should ever feel obligated to share their email address or respond if they’d prefer not to.

  • chasethis : abbyrose, you’re absolutely right. We can affect more change within the system than we can outside of the system. Outside is just that. Outside.

  • ChrisR266 : Abby: You are right. The only way we can alter what is happening is to work within the system and change the direction the system is drifting. It is too ingrained to try to co-opt.

  • ChrisR266 : The other thread that gets lost is this large national narrative is the defensive tone of the rhetoric of the far right. There is nothing good, true, or pure about being far right, only something defensively strong about not being moderate or left. Fear of what one doesn’t think or know is the province of the radical right at this point. There is nothing open or eye-opening intellectually or emotionally about the rhetorical threads. It is batten down the hatches, they’re coming to get you, and would’t it be better if we didn’t have all of these devils attacking us now?

  • chasethis : Good question, choicelady. I blame people who aren’t paying attention. I also excuse them.

  • AdLib : Chris – The demographics are clear though, GOP voters are older and whiter than Dem voters. Younger voters skew hugely to the Dem side. The problem is getting them out to vote.

  • SallyT : AdLib, if McCain had won and with the middle east problems he might have had a heartattack and we’d have President Palin! Talk about jumping off a cliff…..

  • ADONAI : Choice, I blame the American people.

  • choicelady : Adonai – then whom DO you blame? I’m not disagreeing, I’m just curious.

  • ADONAI : Here’s one myth I’d like to put to rest: Politicians are to blame. They very much are not.

  • choicelady : AdLib – and had McCain won, I’d now have a family of outcast skinheads living on our building’s roof. Just as glad it’s only one…

  • Abbyrose86 : Adonai, I learned an important lesson a few years ago, I can effect more change working within the system we have than trying to change the system itself. Unfortunately, it IS a long and tumultuous undertaking AND is very frustrating…bu t I actually make MORE progress this way. I tried the other route (drastically trying to make immediate and drastic change and ended up taking 10 steps back…sadly to get people to really change…it seems to me it must be a slow process….most people don’t like change..unfortun ately.)

  • ADONAI : I often wonder if Republicans actually destroy this place or just make it far too easy for us to do it ourselves.

  • choicelady : Chris – I agree about knowing the issues and standing tall, but another dimension is understanding American VALUES (especially ones we share with the conservatives) and our MYTHS about who we are as people. We don’t all see the American story the same – those who see it as a triumph of hard working people differ from those who believe America is great due to “innovation and capitalism” or “American exceptionalism” meaning Christianity. But we DO have core myths that most of us share, and we need to be honest about those and horable about building on the good stuff.

  • Sabreen60 : Night Cher

  • AdLib : Night Cher!

  • ChrisR266 : Golden slumbers and a good weekend to you, Funk!

  • AdLib : CL – Wow! Outcast skinhead man living on your roof sure describes the times we’re living in (glad you’re okay!). I’m with you on this, until the Repubs and corps are driving this nation into a total trainwreck and people’s lives are torn apart violently, they will remain too apathetic or timid to fight back. You may have a point with Obama being elected one term too early for there to be a profound evolution in the wake of a Pres. McCain collapse of America…but as you say, we would all be suffering through a Great Depression right now with enormous and widespread suffering…just what the majority of Americans insist on in order to do the right thing, unfortunately.

  • chasethis : funksands, “chase is here? well then …..goodnight.. .” Should I be insulted? ;>

  • Sabreen60 : Hi Adonai and everyone.

  • ChrisR266 : Hi Sabreen.

  • chasethis : Choicelady, you are spot on. Stupid, ignorant, religiously indoctrinated folks make much better followers.

  • ChrisR266 : Choice: Indeed, we can’t have the electorate actually thinking, can we? You get it.

  • Khirad : Latah than funk.

  • choicelady : Hi chase and Sabreen!

  • ADONAI : peace funk. Enjoy.

  • funksands : Chase is here? Well then…goodnight everyone! I am off to Minisohta tomorrow for a few days. Keep the fires burning while I’m out.

  • Khirad : Nightcrew?

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: re cher’s argument, it is all about a person’s ability to defend their supposed beliefs through reason and with evidence. Research demonstrates that with education comes confidence in one’s beliefs and one’s ability to defend those beliefs against attack or questioning.

  • choicelady : funk – cool! I’ll let AdLib know I’m fine with that!

  • chasethis : Hello, lord.

  • Khirad : Yes, tex, why not just neutralize the knife?! Wow, this metaphor is getting really overinvolved.

  • ADONAI : Hello sabreen!

  • ADONAI : Hello chase!

  • ADONAI : Abby, I tend to follow you. I believe people should become involved. I use to sit around complaining but I actually started volunteering. Started writing my state reps and state legislature. Donating to meaningful campaigns. But I still don’t like the Parties. I don’t want to “help them”. All they’ve brought my state is poverty and high unemployment REGARDLESS of whose in charge. Nothing but their stupid fucking arguments. My family is Democratic and always hounding me on this stuff. I guess I’m just the black sheep.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi Everyone – Just stopped by for a minute. I’m enjoying reading all the very fast moving comments. If I remember correctly didn’t many folks accuse President (then candidate) of not fighting. I do remember some on the PL wanting him to get down and dirty with the Repubs.

  • SallyT : AdLib, can the message box be moved to the top. I am slow in going down and coming up. Oh, damn, that didn’t sound right……….. …

  • choicelady : Chris – I so agree! The dumbing of our public schools is entirely deliberate. Dumb people make better followers. Smart people keep wanting to THINK, and we can’t have that, can we?

  • chasethis : I’m not up to this, but I can’t just lurk and not comment. Hello, sweet planet people.

  • funksands : Thank you. Lots of Stormfront links coming your way Choice!!

  • texliberal : Khirad, the gun part was a metaphor. We let that guy go after we took his knife. We were too drunk and it would have taken way too much paper work to shot him.

  • ChrisR266 : And, the other thing people just won’t acknowledge as critical in the election process is education level of the electorate. There is a direct correlation between education level and party voting history. Keep ’em dumb, and keep ’em voting conservative. Educate them, and assure that as they learn, they will vote more liberally. This is empirically clear, and the GOP knows it.

  • choicelady : funk – send AdLib an email asking to be joined up with whoever you want to talk to. He will put people in touch if they both want to be in touch.

  • SallyT : Funk, you can be dense just not dunce. Oh, I’d like you either way!

  • AdLib : Cher – I recognize that the ignorant and fearful are easily misled against their own best interests, I am just bewildered by how they can be that way. They lose their job because a corp sends it to China, they lose their home because Wall Street screwed them, they are buried in debt to banks that are their virtual masters…and yet the corps yell in their ear, “It’s because of the Mexicans!” and they nod their heads and hang tea bags from their hats. I see it, I just don’t get it.

  • choicelady : Khirad -Weiner is right. Only we’re bringing library books to a GUN fight! I don’t say we need to be violent – but we DO need to stop acting as if we have to apologize for being fiscally smart, caring about people, and progressive on issues. Why do we feel so wimpy? Weiner was a racist (remember he got elected after the racial violence in Crown Heights which he BUILT on) and a perv, but he was ALSO good on tons of issues and NOT afraid to SAY so. We need to emulate his GOOD stuff.

  • funksands : OT: How do I email anyone here if I wanted to? Is that a dense question? I feel pretty dense.

  • Abbyrose86 : Adonai…one must realize that short term solutions are NOT the answer and patience IS required. TO really effect REAL change one must realize that solutions (REAL solutions to REAL problems are NOT realized overnight). I wish fixing problems could be easy and overnight, but alas…that is rarely the reality.

  • SallyT : Yes, AdLib it is the older ones voting for the corporation. See, they still aren’t old enough to know the depression like my folks drilled into me.

  • ADONAI : Choice, I do make time to get involved in city elections. I volunteer at work centers. But I have to eat. I have to pay rent. Believe me. I put in my time to help my city and my state. And hopefully my country.

  • ChrisR266 : Good night, Kes. Hope your Ohio weekend is pleasant!

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: I disagree to some extent about the older folks. My parents are both in their late 70s and have never wavered from voting for the liberal or progressive candidates on their ballots. My dad ran a credit union for 30 years, and he knows full well who is on who’s side…

  • texliberal : Khirad, it seems that way

  • choicelady : Adonai – the committee system is different everywhere. But you can join a campaign crew and start there working with people you admire even if it’s just city stuff. Learn the system – the bore from within! You do have to MAKE time!

  • SallyT : Well, hell, now you are leaving, Cher? I hope to catch up with you later!

  • Khirad : So tex, Weiner (why!) said that Dems are bringing library books to knife fights, but you say we’re bringing knifes to gun fights?!

  • AdLib : Night Kes! Have a great weekend!

  • Abbyrose86 : Good night Cher!

  • ADONAI : choice, What else can I do besides donate time and money? I don’t have the free time to get much more involved. My nights are free. Any late night mixers I can go to?

  • AdLib : Sally – True, younger generations don’t know there used to be an option to having two incomes but they’re the ones voting Progressive and Dem. It’s the older folks who know better who are voting for these corporate tools named Repubs.

  • Abbyrose86 : OOPS….I messed up my comment…Adonai …good question! My suggestion is to change the party dynamics…by getting involved and voting out those who don’t follow your version of the party. It’s not a short term process however, you must be willing to look long term and encourage others to do the same

  • ChrisR266 : Good night, Cher, good to talk to you this evening.

  • choicelady : Oh Cher – sorry to see you go! Sweet dreams!

  • Khirad : Night Cher!

  • SallyT : Or, Cher, they are just pushing you out of the way.

  • Chernynkaya : Dear friends–I’m being called away! I must say goodnight too. :-(

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: Compound this by the reality that the GOP has spun a narrative of anti-intellectua lism, and academics like Chomsky are effin screwed. Anything they say in the mainstream media is discounted as liberal media hogwash coming from whack eyed liberal intellectuals. We can’t win for losing.

  • texliberal : Democratic politics and in particular Obama remind me of the guy who pulled a knife on me and two fellow off-duty officers outside of a cop bar and demanded our wallets. Not REAL bright.

  • choicelady : Adonai – that’s not enough. We have structures by which people are filtered to the ballot. YOU need to be part of the filter to put Progressives ON the ballot and not just as weak write ins.

  • SallyT : Damn it Cher, you are either saying something really interesting because you get pushed off the page before I can read it.

  • Abbyrose86 : OOPS….

  • ADONAI : Abby, And to the ones who did get involved but quickly burnt out?

  • Abbyrose86 : REALLY get involved to change your party….

  • ADONAI : Choice, i don’t have a Party. I do support truly Progressive candidates though.

  • Abbyrose86 : Adonai, you bring up a good point…and as usual I DO have an answer…if you don’t like how the political parties are acting…than GET involved…

  • choicelady : Adonai – Abby can certainly speak for herself, but I think the work starts in the streets. Become a committee member for the party of your choice, and work like HELL to get decent candidates. Is it easy? Hell no!

  • Khirad : Phew, Cher.

  • Chernynkaya : Khirad–wait–I get it!

  • SallyT : Kes, I just got here! Oh, well, nite, nite if you have to go…..

  • AdLib : Chris – Though I like a lot of what Chomsky says, when we as reasoning people hand over our decision making to any individual(s), we become just like the Repubs and Teabaggers we criticize. And the issue of ego is always a danger for anyone whose words are valued. Some can manage it, some can’t.

  • Khirad : Nighty night kes.

  • Chernynkaya : Khirad, How so? I’m lost.

  • ADONAI : Abby _ what do you say to all the people who are tired of the 2 Parties? who see nothing redeeming in them?

  • choicelady : ‘Night kes!

  • ADONAI : Nite kes!

  • Abbyrose86 : Seriously…if WE want to really make a difference, I truly think we need to concentrate our efforts and getting the disenfranchised involved….our nations low voter turn out..and thus our politicians pandering to those who DO vote is the major problem…even more than those who ‘buy’ influence. I’m learning SO much about our nations political process lately…and I’m not pleased.

  • Khirad : Char, sounds like an Ad Lib article idea there.

  • Chernynkaya : Take care, kes!

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: I am not bewildered by what you see. It saddens me, but doesn’t bewilder. American political rhetoric of the right is firmly grounded in siege mentality, and it remains remarkably consistent. Rhetoric more like exceptionalism and the jeremiad used to be the province of the right, and they have abandoned it over the last 30 years. As much as I hated it, Reagan’s shining city on a hill would be much more liberal than the reactionary bunker rhetoric we get from the right in the last 20 years.

  • ADONAI : AL – He lost. SCOTUS or no SCOTUS. He lost.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think I figured out that most active Americans today grew up in the past 40 years of corporate dominance. No one so far is immiserated enough – this is NOT the 30s – to fully get it. I think you’re seeing it changing, but it will take time. Unfortunately, Obama got elected three years too soon – if we’d had McCain, we’d be in full throat revolt now because he’d have left it to crash and burn. But on the whole it’s better NOT to be that bad. This afternoon we found a MAN on the roof of our building at work running from the law. He was a skinhead, and it was pretty clear he was someone society had dumped. I was not so sympathetic as to NOT call the cops, but they did not even try to find him. I think he lives on the building roof. YIKES! That is purely weird and rather scary.

  • ADONAI : Yes we will tex, but our current mess it not on his shoulders. It’s on all of ours.

  • Chernynkaya : Al–of course I have the same WTF questions. But as I think on it, the answer–not kidding–can be found in My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding. When you have a population that is insular, feels on the outs, is rabidly fundamentalist and uneducated, they are going to vote the way the smart and shrewd corps tell them, playing on all their fears and ignorance. And just like the Travelers, we will become powerless and more insular. I know I am going to have a very difficult time until the election. It’s going to get unspeakably outrageous and I will be hair-on-fire until Obama wins and we regain the House.

  • AdLib : AD – It has been proven that Gore won FL. Though he ran a poor campaign, he still won in 2000 and had that win stolen away by the SCOTUS.

  • kesmarn : Midnight here in the Ohio Garden of Good and Mediocre. So I’ll say good night, friends!

  • ADONAI : People think the very act of voting gets them off the hook. As though they’ve done their duty. You have to take pride in your vote. Have it mean something. Voting just for the sake of voting or at the bullying of others is a hollow gesture entirely. You did not vote on your terms. You voted on someone else’s. Yo do not own your vote.

  • Khirad : I share your feelings about him being in an Ivory Tower. I thought he was woefully out of touch when he tried explaining organizing and why he didn’t do more of that. Still, take him for what he is, an academic that can cite studies and polls that go against all the propaganda being manufactured. As to his purism, pay no mind to it. It’s impracticable and annoying at best.

  • texliberal : ADONAI, it’s not the end of the story. We’ll be suffering the results of that election for another 20 years.

  • SallyT : AdLib, the population is being more and more that don’t know there ever was a choice on having a two income. They have grown up knowing mom and dad work and sometimes more than one job.

  • AdLib : Funk – Well said! It is much less of a risk for corps to invest in politicians and legislation than innovation. SO that’s what they do. I mean, when the majority of the nation’s economy is based on the financial sector, there isn’t any innovating that can be done to increase profits since they don’t make anything. Only lowering taxes and removing regulations will let them make more money.

  • Abbyrose86 : I was actually on a rant earlier…about people who don’t bother to vote….my campaign staff keep telling me to not bother with those who don’t vote…and to concentrate on those WHO do vote, this bothers me somewhat. On the one hand I see the point…politics IS a numbers game and I should concentrate my efforts on those who are ALREADY involved…BUT.. .on the other hand…I feel like I’m selling out if I do….SO now I’m realizing the reality of political life…and honestly it sucks.

  • ADONAI : So who are we blaming Kerry on?

  • texliberal : Khirad. I love reading Chomsky but he’s ivory tower. Politics is a street fight.

  • ADONAI : Gore should have won the electoral college walking away as well. He lost. End of story.

  • ChrisR266 : Khirad: His political advice is hollow. It has no context and no track record. And he is not willing to test it.

  • choicelady : Adonai – Gore did NOT lose the popular vote, but Nader took the solid win away just enough to make Gore more vulnerable. The real problem is, indeed, the Supreme Court decision. That would have changed the outcome totally. But Gore WON the popular vote.

  • ADONAI : Yep. that’s right. Don’t ever try to run for office if it isn’t as a Democrat or Republican. Otherwise you’re just “in the way”.

  • AdLib : Hey Abby!!!

  • AdLib : CL – That’s what will forever bewilder me. How can so many Americans be so clueless? As a society we’ve gone from two incomes in a household being optional to being insufficient. Few people have pensions or savings, affordable health care with low deductibles, can afford to keep moving up the economic ladder and buy nicer homes and cars…WTF? WHen does it sink into these peoples’ heads that voting for corporate chills only destroys their standard of living? Damn!

  • texliberal : CL Exactly.

  • Khirad : I read Chomsky, but I don’t take political advice from him – if you get what I’m saying. I think there is happy medium there.

  • ChrisR266 : Cher: Indeed. He stays safe in this office and doesn’t own the fact that real change comes through praxis–behaving knowledge. He preaches well, but will not take the necessary steps to make the knowledge work for everyday living.

  • choicelady : tex – you mean Nader? I’m with you there. And I was horrified at how cavalier he was about the concerns of women and of union people – he hates manufacturing since it’s “dirty” and he’s too limited to know how to “green” it. He’s stuck in his ways, and he’s stuck up. Never a good pairing.

  • SallyT : CL, yes, there are elections that no matter how many parties or those running, you don’t get what you want anyway.

  • Abbyrose86 : Hi Adonai, Cher, Funk, Khirad and Chris!

  • Khirad : Oh yeah, I was talkin’ about supermajority in that last one.

  • texliberal : Sally, the most prominent determinant of the 2000 Presidential election was not SCOTUS, but a vain old man who should have stayed out of the way

  • Chernynkaya : Chris–Chomsky is great if one wants to talk about ideals and Ivory Towers. ANd he’s right philosophically. But I want him to tell me just how to accomplish all that. I see more people waling up to reality–even in the media.

  • choicelady : Sally – does it really work for the best interests of working families? Of course a simple Labour/Tory split did not either when Blair said at Blackpool in ’96 that Labour would no longer value or heed labour unions!!! I was there for that – I was horrified.

  • ADONAI : Choice, Gore lost that election. It should have NEVER been that close. I will not blame a man for another’s failings. I certainly will not blame a man for doing his civic duty, regardless of whose “plans” it ruined.

  • SallyT : Adonai, I know. I was just saying that multi parties do work in other countries. Not ours.

  • ChrisR266 : Hi, Abby! I am glad for New York, too.

  • Khirad : Washington has the same. I remember something about raises for teachers, benefits, or something. Imagine, me, who was taken up to Olympia to picket with my teacher parents in elementary (which was out ’cause of the strike) having my mom and dad trying to explain to me why the most votes weren’t enough for them to go back to work. All these years later, it still doesn’t make sense. Seems awfully anti-democratic even.

  • Abbyrose86 : I tried posting comments earlier…but I had an issue! I’m very happy with the results of NY’s vote! NY is very diverse and has some very conservative pockets…but I’m glad to see that equality prevailed!

  • AdLib : Sally, so glad you’re on VP and it’s working for you!

  • choicelady : Adonai – I’m not the one arguing Gore/Nader, but Nader did undermine the total vote count enough to matter. Of course Gore WON the popular vote, and the SCOTUS screwed us on the Electoral Congress votes thanks to the spineless refusal to permit a genuine recount.

  • ADONAI : Indeed Sally. but 2 Parties run this show and have their constituents addicted to them. Keep’em sick. Keep’em afraid.

  • Chernynkaya : Hi Abby!

  • kesmarn : Hey, Abby.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: I think it is funny that I had such a Freudian slip in typing Chomsky’s name the way I did, LOL. But here’s the point about him. He is one of those academics who believes that because he is what he is, people will necessarily listen to him. He is right, I believe, but he is both naive and arrogant in his faith that folks will embrace what he says because he is who he is.

  • AdLib : Khirad – That has been proven, at Costco, in Silicon Valley, in a variety of places. Keep your workers well taken care of without providing undue enrichment and you have a stable and more productive workforce. Treat them poorly, high turnover, lots of resources spent on Human Resources and training, more stealing and days off for illness, etc. It is proven but greed doesn’t care, it’s all about wanting more and giving less.

  • funksands : Abby!

  • Chernynkaya : Kes, I’m with you there. I think this election will NOT be close.

  • ADONAI : Hello abby!

  • SallyT : Like I said, England has multi parties and they like it that way.

  • Abbyrose86 : hi

  • ADONAI : Choice, yes because bad compromises and slimy deals don’t exist eight now.

  • choicelady : Khirad – that’s my problem with third parties. Cameron.

  • kesmarn : If the Dem Party could get Barack Obama elected, it still has life left in it. I’m not giving up on it yet.

  • ADONAI : Choice, No. Gore got us George Bush. He lost his own home state. Nader barely received any votes. How did Gore not walk away with that one against a veritable moron? Democrats can blame Nader, I know better.

  • choicelady : Adonai – if you have three parties, no one of which has a majority, you make “compromises” which usually don’t benefit human beings to get the vote. In CA we already have the problem since we demand a supermajority of 2/3 to pass any revenue increases. That leads to slimy deals to get the votes. Straight up majority rule is always cleaner – people elect the party in dominance, they vote, people don’t like it, vote ’em out. It has worked well, and there is no reason it cannot continue. I hate deals for votes SO much because we see it annually over just our budget, and the deals are dangerous and enduring.

  • SallyT : Hey, tex! I think the Supreme Court got us Bush.

  • Khirad : It only undermines the majority if we look in left / right spectrum terms. Look at Britain. How many seats are won by Tories ’cause Labour and LibDems cancel each other out but where the left was the majority? And then you get Cameron. Lovely.

  • Chernynkaya : I know Sally–no rush!

  • funksands : I think part of the problem with corporations today, specifically in the US is that they have determined that the best way to stay profitable is to innovate through legislation. Rather than compete and innovate in a more traditional manner.

  • kesmarn : Hey, Sally!

  • texliberal : ADONAI, it doesn’t but you have to admit no matter what you think of Gore’s campaign 3rd party got us George Bush.

  • Khirad : As you said last week AL, it cartoonish.

  • SallyT : Hi Funk and Cher! When you get on late, there is a lot of reading to do!

  • AdLib : Khirad – As to the hypocrisy of Repubs, the will of the people only matters when it’s in their favor. Remember their screaming about HCR being shoved down the throats of Americans, against the will of the people? Now, with around 70% of Americans opposed to killing Medicare, they don’t give a shit about the will of the people and are…trying to force it down the throats of the public. It’s all a simple-minded game that the corporate media won’t expose.

  • funksands : Sally hi!

  • choicelady : AdLib – I do not dispute your scenario. Corporations had a whirlwind of a time 1936-1973. They made HUGE profits from war and rebuilding. When things began to slow down – not LOSSES but just less profit – they made sure they’d get it back, and from that point on in ’73, they have taken step by step measures to assure their dominance. And we let them by electing sock puppets for them.

  • SallyT : How many different parties does England have? 4?

  • funksands : If people are no longer packed and cracked in their district, won’t that necessarily lead to more representative governance? At least on state rep and national rep level?

  • Chernynkaya : Good to see you, Sally!

  • ADONAI : Choice, How does a 3rd Party undermine majority rule? If a majority votes for the 3rd Party or against it, how is that undermining the majority?

  • SallyT : Hi, Adlib. I got on tonight without any problems!

  • kesmarn : Speaking of paying: Kasich has legislation in the works to allow Lake Erie water to be taken by corps at the rate of 50,000,000 gallons a DAY “before regulations begin.” Lovely. Didn’t know it belonged to him.

  • funksands : Choice do you think the California re-apportionment (sp) process is going to be a solution to some of these issues?

  • AdLib : Hey Sally!

  • choicelady : tex! LOL!!! Oh, yeahhhhhh. While THAT pisses me off, too – getting involved purely for self interest – I will NOT dispute that it works.

  • AdLib : CL – AS far as the chicken and egg thing goes, I think corporations came first and their money bought the de-regulation through crony politicians they paid for. And trying to undo those provisions, as many good politicians try, is very hard. So, I would suggest that the real cause of our economic woes fall primarily on corporations.

  • Khirad : AL, I don’t get it. It seems that providing workers better benefits would make them more proud and invested in the company’s success – and thus increase productivity. In fact, am I mistaken that they’ve found the same for vacation time in office jobs?

  • choicelady : Adonai – I agree that you have to work your butt off no matter what, but I exhort people to take OVER the existing party apparatus wherever they can. Then put in good, fearless candidates who listen to “them what brung ’em.” Third parties undermine majority rule which I very much believe in.

  • texliberal : CL, that’s why I’m a firm believer in motivators like Selective Service. Remember?

  • kesmarn : And we all get to pay the price for it, c’lady. Lucky us.

  • choicelady : tex – the young who were not ‘excited’ piss me off. So what? How dumb do you have to be to NOT vote, let the evil doers get control, and then whine? I understand Chris’ faith in Millennials, but honestly – that was just stupid.

  • ADONAI : Hello sally! and thanks

  • AdLib : CL – No doubt. It is only because of the sentiment of a majority of folks in NY that this bill passed, without public support, it couldn’t have happened no matter who pushed it.

  • ADONAI : Very god point AL.

  • ADONAI : Choice,I never said it was common. I was only refuting your point that it DOESN’T happen. Nothing worth doing is easy. Accepting your lot in life is defeat.

  • AdLib : AD – Imagine celebrating the Civil Rights Act, how minorities and fair minded folks would have felt back then.

  • ChrisR266 : smoke break, but AdLib, I have something to say about Chompsky–will do so when I return.

  • SallyT : You can thank Thomas Jefferson for the 2 party system

  • SallyT : adonai, John Adams and Jesse Vantura

  • choicelady : Bernie – yes, that’s true. Who is Harry Byrd? Those exceptions actually PROVE how rare that is.

  • Khirad : Yes, Cher those are two polls that have been covered to some extent. So why aren’t we talking about the “Will of the People” like the GOP always does?

  • AdLib : CL – Amazing that despite the proof being in the pudding, Costco providing higher wages and better benefits is more profitable than Walmart with low wages and poor benefits. The old Wall Street movie quote was, “Greed is good.” I say, “Greed is dumb.”

  • Chernynkaya : Be back in a sec….

  • texliberal : All politics is local. Take for instance November 2010. Young people stayed away from the polls in droves, it wasn’t exciting enough and look what has happened. That is what you have to hammer into peoples heads.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: And, people just can’t accept the fact that media arms ARE corporations! They are owned by shareholders and beholding to them. Their sole goal is to draw an audience to deliver numbers so the outlet can charge more for advertising time and thus then pay shareholders more dividends.

  • choicelady : AdLib – yes, Wall Street was entirely responsible for the crash (well actually the totally unregulated mortgage broker industry which is NOT Wall Street – but WS bought the damned things) BUT the political players wrote the laws that unleashed them. Clinton signed the laws. So…in a sense politicians share the blame indeed.

  • ADONAI : Choice,Bernie Sanders in the Senate. Our first President George Washington, Harry Byrd, and a ton of local officials current and in the past. Again, they are only viable if we say they are. Everything else is just an excuse.

  • Chernynkaya : The polls say that people DO want corps to pay more taxes. Ditto for the richest. But they also show that people have very sketchy and threadbare information about most things.

  • AdLib : Chris – Right with you on that. Corporations have successfully co-opted the media in this country and frame the debate of “Who’s To Blame?” around politicians, conveniently leaving themselves out of the mix. WHich politician was more responsible for the 2008 crash than Wall Street?

  • choicelady : AdLib – good for Cuomo, but it still could not have happened without the will of the people!

  • ADONAI : It still feels weird celebrating something that should be law without question, but it is indeed a big day.

  • Khirad : Chris, when I read Chomsky, it’s actually amazing how many polls do ask these types of questions. But guess what? They don’t actually care what the people really think unless it suits them. And by not covering it in the news, I suppose it is so people never realize they are in the MAJORITY opinion, and that the corporotacracy is the MINORITY.

  • choicelady : Adonai – if you can show me at the state and national level ONE instance of a third party win, I’d be happy. You can’t. That’s the problem with the structure of our system. So we have to either change the laws which is dicey OR, easier actually, reform the parties.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib and Adonai: you are both correct. This one managed to stay out of the ring of corporate wrangling.

  • Chernynkaya : Funk–in the sense that we are not Parliamentary, yes. But there are third parties. However, they are not really functional ow except as spoilers.

  • AdLib : Funk – The 2 party system is baked into our democracy but it wasn’t due to The Constitution.

  • choicelady : AdLib – yes, the B corporations won’t be Chevron! But as corporate law now exists, the one and only one thing management can do is make money for the stockholders. That puts companies such as Costco in constant battle with those who want them to strip wages and benefits from employees and be more like Wal Mart – even though Costco outperforms Wal Mart. The bozo factor is – if we take away good wages and benefits, we will make MORE money. Never figure out that they will NOT.

  • texliberal : Khirad, that’s what really scares them

  • ADONAI : AL – I get that but this wasn’t a political victory. It was a victory for the people.

  • AdLib : AD – Cuomo had a lot to do with pushing the marriage bill through, he did it with a lot of help from the LGBT community but he was hands on and deserves some of the credit.

  • Khirad : To take off on tex, how freaked out is the RW over the demographics news today?

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: We don’t see those polls because pollsters don’t ask those questions, and because the people asking are the ones driving the narrative. All media is corporate–no media is liberal or independent. It is all answerable to the gods of profit, and wholly beholding to the publishers who determine the editorial impetus.

  • ADONAI : See choice, I don’t buy that. We are the ones who decide who gets elected. Their “viable” if wee say they are. No one wants to go third Party because it’s out of their comfort zone. And there is a probability of failure. But nothing worth doing is easy. Nothing worth having can be attained without sacrifice and perseverance.

  • Chernynkaya : Choice, “us” are the people on the left who can say plainly that the repubs are sabotaging the recovery, who say that wwe have ton tax the rich and get out of the wars, and who say that the Right is an outrage on whatever issue you can name. Those “us.” I have no patience with the purists, if that’s who you mean. And most of the real base doesn’t either. At all–I see a LOT of jeering towards the Firebaggers.

  • texliberal : ADONAI. the United States people will see 20-30 years from now will be totally different with the changing demographics. True we will have to survive the next 20 years but the system of government we have chosen moves very slowly. Remember there were 100 years between the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil Rights Act.

  • funksands : Isn’t the two-party system baked into the Constitution?

  • AdLib : CL – Yes, we’ve talked about B Corps before and it is a fantastic way to go though I doubt the majority of mercenary and wealthiest corps would have any incentive to go that route. Still, there should be special benefits for B Corps.

  • choicelady : Adonai – I agree with you about NY! Why do the big cheeses always get the credit when it’s the ordinary people who did the work, won the victory?

  • kesmarn : Attack corporation, AdLib, though, and you’re accused of attacking capitalism itself. And that’s now been cleverly equated with attacking America. As if America=Capitali sm and nothing else.

  • choicelady : Adonai – we don’t have viable choices with the current two party system. We have to pick better candidates at the git go. We also have to shore up those in office – tell them over and over what we insist that they do. In cases such as yours and other people’s where the will of the people is also sucky, that’s hard.

  • ADONAI : I hope New York doesn’t get a big head about this. You didn’t do shit here folks. Your LBGT citizens won this battle with the help of people who respect human life. You were merely pushed in this direction by their hard work. Don’t applaud Bloomberg. Applaud the people.

  • AdLib : For example, why don’t we see any polls blaming corporations and the wealthy for the economy? Why is Obama responsible? He is our government’s leader, not our economic leader. Corporations lead and control our economy, why aren’t they held responsible for its state in polls. In fact, do any polls list “corporations” as an entity people can choose to blame for the economy? It’s a total scam.

  • choicelady : Cher – the problem, IMHO, is that who is “us”? Too many of CA progressives have NO love for ordinary people who often have better understanding of the crises and more sensible plans for getting OUT of it. We can be dreadful snobs!

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: Yeah, we pretty much suck at having any patience or foresight. LOL.

  • Chernynkaya : I was just telling my husband that I have never noticed how much the Dems are the followers of the people as I have recently. I see that the liberal on the webs and in the media start them in the correct direction and then they seem to finally follow US.

  • choicelady : funk – I think it has real possibility. The B corporation election is now legal in at least MD, and I hear four other states. But DeSaulnier is full speed ahead on the “flexible” corporate issue. I can just see the Kochs setting one up to dominate issues they want to control. They already do it with foundations. This would be worse.

  • AdLib : Chris – As we’ve seen historically, even as recently as 2008, when the public suffers *enough*, they will push back against the 1% plundering and controlling our country. Unfortunately, Americans don’t seem to be big on long term planning or resolve to avoid terrible suffering.

  • ADONAI : choice, we have choices. we have an abundance of choices. We also have people afraid to stray from the familiar and comfortable.

  • ADONAI : I will not. I have no love for their Party. I;m only interested in seeing the right thing done. Not shoring up their re-election campaign.

  • funksands : CL, agreed, change is only going to come up from the bottom…

  • choicelady : Adonai – I’d agree if we had any other real choice. We have to make an effort to get say at the committee level locally to MAKE the Democratic party act like adults again!

  • Chernynkaya : OH– the weak-kneed stuff. Agreed! But I’ll still vote for them.

  • funksands : Choice, I read an article about B corps in the Nation the other day. Good stuff.

  • ADONAI : Cher, Constantly backing down to save political face.

  • choicelady : AdLib – there is an alternative that the CA Nonprofits don’tlike but I do: B Corporations for Benefit Corporations. The head of CA Nonprofits insists that corporations can do good works – but it’s not legally true anymore. If we had a B election the company could declare its intent to protect the environment, give workers benefits, do good things – and stockholders could NOT sue over those uses of corporation money. I think it’s a good idea. But I stand pretty much alone in the non-profit world. We ARE unified against ‘flexible options’ though!

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: What, I wonder, is the point that the majority turns on the subsidiary? With recent events, it that potential even relevant anymore?

  • ADONAI : That’s good to hear Khirad.

  • Chernynkaya : Which particular shit, AD?

  • Khirad : AD, Turkey is actually stepping up to the plate with Syria. Although the border has seen troop buildups that could get tense. They only normalized relations a few years ago.

  • Chernynkaya : That’s why I believe we’re at a tipping point as a nation.

  • ADONAI : All this talk about Republicans, I swear to GOD if Democrats take over the government again and pull that shit they pulled last time, I’ll never support them again.

  • kesmarn : That Van Jones speech that b’ito posted speaks to that at length, AdLib. The corporate ownership of the RW, that is.

  • ChrisR266 : You’re welcome, K. If I wasn’t married to an Irishman, I would not know SO much, LOL!

  • Chernynkaya : Yes, you’re right AD.

  • AdLib : It is a sad state of affairs when we take for granted that one of our two political parties is a subsidiary of 1% of the population.

  • Khirad : Thanks Chris, on that clarification of the relationship between the Roma and Travelers. That’s kinda how I figured it would be.

  • ADONAI : Cher, he may have been paraphrasing them but the words “government of the people, by the people, and for the people” originate in the Gettysburg Address.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think DeSaulnier is in thrall with being “innovative”. It’s sailed through the Senate, too.

  • Chernynkaya : AD–he was quoting them. And AL–GROAN!! HAH!

  • AdLib : Government BUY the people.

  • ADONAI : That was Lincoln

  • Chernynkaya : Boy, those Founding Father weren’t kidding when they said government BY the people, huh?

  • kesmarn : Khirad, McConnell (inadvertently) got it right when he implied that if Libya had been Bush’s baby, they would have supported it.

  • Khirad : Exactly, CL. The Travelers, by being Irish our of course Celts, but I’d always hoped they would have kept some more of the crafts and such of a bygone time – it could have been anthropological gold. Their language, though, is a form of Gaelic, albeit a purposefully cryptic and artificial one. «link»

  • AdLib : TO Peter Falk (pours beer on ground)

  • ADONAI : Khirad, I agree. I’m just pointing to the inevitability of us getting involved in that shit. I wish more local powers would handle their fucking business so we didn’t have to.

  • Chernynkaya : I’ll miss Falk too, but to me he’s best as the grandfather in Princess Bride. And I heard Abe Vigoda IS alive.

  • AdLib : CL – Is DeSaulnier being naive or is he doing this knowingly?

  • kesmarn : I’ve had the same feeling, Cher. They’re attacking so rapidly on so many fronts, it’s hard to keep track of them all.

  • Khirad : AD, what’s annoyed me about “Obama’s war of choice in Libya” and saying there are double standards is that who you should be asking that question to is not Obama but the Arab League and UNSC members Russia and China. In other words, we aren’t getting involved in Syria.

  • AdLib : Thanks CL, Chris and Cher – groaning humor is my specialty.

  • ADONAI : Peter Falk is dead?! Ah man! I loved that guy. R.I.P. Columbo

  • Chernynkaya : CL– there is SO much to pay attention too–so many dangers now–I get overwhelmed. I have to tell myself that the way to eat an elephant (pun intended) is one bite at a time.

  • choicelady : AdLib – one of the bills is SB 201 by Mark DeSaulnier who damned well should know better. It opens a HUGE can of worms!

  • ChrisR266 : Corp-U-Lent? Agreed, Cher.

  • kesmarn : c’lady, here we are joking about corps becoming demi-religions and they’re actually trying to do it! That’s creepy!

  • ADONAI : I heard they were engineered in the basement laboratory of George Washington Carver

  • choicelady : Khirad – I’d also heard the Travelers are remnants of the Celts, but what a pity if that’s all that survived!

  • AdLib : CL – That is a terrifying prospect!

  • ChrisR266 : Khirad: I have understood the former (Cromwell) origins as well.

  • Khirad : Indeed, that’s where the term gypsy comes from, when in fact the Romani originate from northern India and their syntax reflects that.

  • Chernynkaya : AL–you’re on a real roll!

  • choicelady : AdLib – Corp-U-Lent? Ohhhhhhhhh worst one tonight. So far.

  • ChrisR266 : As I understand it from all of my husband’s relatives, the travelers and the Romani live in a tense detente, so to speak. As long as they stay out of each other’s territory, things are ok. They come together for ceremonial purposes once or twice a year, but that’s it. They are much more like rival gangs.

  • kesmarn : He’s one corporation that would be two persons.

  • choicelady : AdLib, kes and all – in case you think the Bank of Perpetual Interest is merely funny, you should know that there is a move by two legislators to make “flexible benefit corporations” so that for-profit companies could incorporate as NON profits. The benefit supposedly is that then they could legally indulge in paying higher wages, taking care of the environment, etc. that they really cannot do now if shareholders object to the “loss of income”. However, can you think of the EVIL that would come with Koch non-profit!!!! Chevron non-profit???? We are fighting this tooth and nail – it’s just a step on the way to, yes, giving religious exemptions. But this is a very BAD law we have on the table in the Senate!

  • Chernynkaya : Oops. pressed a weird key there.

  • Khirad : An interesting theory I read about the Travelers is that they originate from when Cromwell drove the native Irish off their lands. Others say they predate that, as remnants of ancient tribal Irish culture. But, I don’t think it’s the latter, as I’d imagine they would have kept more of that culture over time.

  • ADONAI : So what’s up with Syria? When do you think we’re getting involved in that hornet’s nest?

  • AdLib : Gov Christie is Corp-U-Lent.

  • Chernynkaya : Khirad–they explain the “gypsy” is the mistake that they were Egyptians.

  • AdLib : Apple

  • kesmarn : Corp is Gov. Christie

  • Chernynkaya : Chris–{taking a bow}

  • ADONAI : The Vatican

  • Khirad : Indeed Chris, and what’s confusing me about this show is the mix of Travelers and Romani. Do they intermarry? Or just hang out together because of similar lifestyles? The generic pejorative of Gypsy is misleading. Neither are ethnically related to the other.

  • ADONAI : The First Amalgamated Church of The Holy Profits

  • ChrisR266 : LMAO, Cher! Bravo!

  • Chernynkaya : MicroSaint.

  • AdLib : Chaste Bank

  • ADONAI : Cher, deep fry it and I’m there

  • kesmarn : Holy Angles

  • Chernynkaya : Well, if you like chopped liver carved into swans.

  • Khirad : Ah, I see. In any case I wasn’t catching any Romani culture.

  • AdLib : Our Lady of Perpetual Interest Payments

  • kesmarn : Goodman Seechs

  • choicelady : Adonai – I would agree: Jewish weddings are the best.

  • ADONAI : I greatly admire their skill as thieves. Wish I was that good.

  • Chernynkaya : Bank of the Blessed Virgin.

  • ChrisR266 : -+-force to be reckoned with today, still.

  • ChrisR266 : Khirad: The Irish travelers have a long and storied history. And, they span the European arena. They’re quite a foc\

  • AdLib : Citichurch

  • Chernynkaya : Khirad–the wedding are the same.

  • kesmarn : Chris, that show was the topic of conversation here, too.

  • choicelady : Hi Chris!

  • Khirad : CL, this show definitely shows the abuse of women alright.

  • kesmarn : Yes, AdLib. Corporations are already persons. Now they’ll be RELIGIOUS persons with the Supremes.

  • ChrisR266 : My big fat gypsy wedding was just on, of course I was watching., LOL.

  • ADONAI : Italians a close second

  • Chernynkaya : AL–great point. But they are already tax-exempt in practice anyway.

  • ADONAI : Jewish weddings are still the best.

  • kesmarn : Hey, Chris!

  • Khirad : Okay, I haven’t seen the Romani weddings. The one I saw was only Irish Traveler. I thought the Roma at least had culture.

  • AdLib : Hey Chris!

  • Chernynkaya : Hiya, Chris!

  • AdLib : Only a matter of time until capitalism/corpo rations are deemed to be religions by the SCOTUS and are free to do anything they wish under religious freedom. If corporations are people, why can’t those people become clergy?

  • ADONAI : Evenin chris

  • Chernynkaya : The only experiences I’ve had with the Rom were not good. I’ll have to investigate more.

  • ChrisR266 : evening, all.

  • kesmarn : There used to be Romany folk that would move through this area every now and then. Shady “asphalt coating” salesman and when anyone what hospitalized massive amounts of hospital property would vanish. I was impressed by their speed and skill.

  • ADONAI : Noise and violence? Well, they’d fit right in next door to me.

  • choicelady : Khirad – I’ve been fascinated by the Travelers, too, but I also steer clear of them. I lived next door to a family, and frankly they were creepy scary. Lots of violence and abuse – especially to the kids. Ick. I was very happy when they moved away.

  • Chernynkaya : Khirad–I agree. It’s pretty atavistic.

  • ADONAI : Capitalism built this country. Unfettered capitalism is a very bad thing.

  • kesmarn : Unregulated capitalism is just about the worst idea the human mind has ever produced.

  • ADONAI : Khirad, I dunno if you’ve seen the movie Snatch but that was my first introduction to “pikeys”. Brad Pitt played one.

  • choicelady : AdLib – there’s a new gelato place opening here. We could Fed Ex some? If you’re getting brain freeze though, that won’t help. No more anything COLD for you!

  • Chernynkaya : C’Lady–it’s a TV reality show about Romany weddings in Briton. «link»

  • Khirad : CL, I’ve not been impressed by Irish Traveler “culture”. In fact, aside from social structure (medieval) they have none apart from horrible kitsch. The Ri¢hes (if anyone ever saw that) made it seem far more romantic. Although, I like when they switch into Cant once in a while in front of the camera. If you haven’t caught it ’cause it sounds like quick mumbling, that’s the whole point. Everything about that culture is about being surreptitious, to put it nicely.

  • choicelady : kes – yes, capitalism had a huge amount to do with the LOSS of women’s rights in the post-Revolutiona ry period of US history. Other events were similar in Europe. Women before that had far more rights than later until the late 20th C. Feminists don’t like that story – but I think seeing how women were stripped of rights is hugely important.

  • AdLib : CL – What’s wrong with me tonight? Of course you’re right, all marriages have to be established by the state! Man, no more frozen yogurt for me on Friday nights!

  • ADONAI : HA!

  • Chernynkaya : AL–Perfect!

  • kesmarn : Better than the Merry Widow, at least, AdLib.

  • choicelady : ADLib – that is the PERFECT poster for this conversation!

  • Chernynkaya : Kirad–kinda, yes. But worse, if you know those girls don;t get past the 8th grade, if that.

  • AdLib : Here’s a poster that may be hanging in some NY apartments a year from now: «link»

  • choicelady : Khirad – you mean YOU had a big fat white trash Jersey shore wedding in England or that should be the REAL name of the show? I’m a bit lost here…

  • ADONAI : It does look strange but I think it’s kind of quaint.

  • kesmarn : c’lady, once again Capitalism ruins it all.

  • Chernynkaya : AD– I do too! What a strange society.

  • Khirad : You mean my Big Fat White Trash Jersey Shore Wedding in England?

  • choicelady : Cher – no I’ve not seen it, but I LOVE the title!

  • ADONAI : Cher, yes. I find it highly amusing.

  • Chernynkaya : OFF Topic for a sec: but speaking of marriage, has anyone watched “My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding” on aTV?

  • choicelady : kes – but women wanted it too because they wanted the guarantee that the biological dad protected his progeny. I think feminists are wrong – it serves all people pretty well until about the 19th century when capitalism moved in and made women the property of their husbands so the old guy could use her property as HIS.

  • funksands : I’ll be somewhere down there first week of October. I’ll let you know. I’ll buy lunch if you are up for it.

  • ADONAI : You know why marriage was invented? It wasn’t invented by religion or designed to be some spiritual union. It had various reasons. One was to ensure your child was yours. You were basically paying a woman to not have sex with anyone else. Also issues of inheritance and legal inheritance or heirs. Rome made marriage a religious process. Not too long after it was made a Christian state.

  • Chernynkaya : I’m in the LA area–Long Beach.

  • Chernynkaya : AD–YEP!! HEH!

  • kesmarn : c’lady, feminists have argued that the whole marriage thing was originally so that men could be sure all their precious stuff wasn’t inherited by some other guy’s kid.

  • choicelady : AdLib – no, sorry, marriage CANNOT be created solely by religious entities. They CANNOT legally marry you – that is why you have to have a license. ONLY the state can LEGALLY marry you. You can have all the tulle and cake and blessing and dove poop you want – no license, no marriage.

  • funksands : Ad, aren’t you and Cher in LA? Stalker time!

  • AdLib : Cher – Communism never went down so easy!

  • kesmarn : funksands, yeah… I should have put 2 and 2 together on that one.

  • funksands : Tucson? Oh boy, talk about a departure!

  • choicelady : Adonai – no, Rome was NOT the beginning of weddings. It was much earlier. But marriage as a contract is VERY old. All those tribal/successio n issues you know…

  • Khirad : Yeah CL, that’s where I thought it got sticky. That’s sorta what I was asking.

  • Chernynkaya : Oh, my damn server. «link» it’s just Leninade though.

  • funksands : Half the kids in public schools here are the offspring of Google and Microsoft employees. It screws the curve.

  • choicelady : Khirad – damn. Thought we were on sauce. OK – marriage is a contract that governs support, property, children, inheritence, etc. The STATE should do that. It’s an economic union. Weddings are about blessings, ceremony, rites and rituals. So you could do just the latter – but good luck proving your inheritence if there is no marriage certificate from the SECULAR state that oversees your property issues. Marriage was ALWAYS first and foremost about property and kinship issues. The rest kinda got thrown in later. Much, much later.

  • Khirad : No, Tucson now for the last few years, but I’m a Portland area native.

  • AdLib : Khirad – You have put your finger on the dichotomy here. Marriage is a legal status and yet it can be created solely by religious entities. That is hardly separation of church and state.

  • Khirad : Ha funksands!

  • funksands : K, aren’t you in Portland?

  • kesmarn : Is that the place that had 400 of the top 500 high schools in America?

  • ADONAI : Khirad, Blame Rome

  • Khirad : That’s the PNW I remember!

  • funksands : Khirad, someone has to sweep the floors…

  • funksands : Where it is still March….:-(

  • Khirad : Bellevue? Preppie.

  • AdLib : tinyurl

  • funksands : Bellevue, WA

  • AdLib : Kes and Cher, go to tunyurl «link» and convert the link, then it will work.

  • ADONAI : Why couldn’t the Essenes have won the war for Christianity? we wouldn’t have to worry about them. They wouldn’t care what we did. They’d be in their caves meditating.

  • choicelady : hey funk – maybe you can meet up with some of us? Where are you regularly? I lose track of who’s where.

  • kesmarn : We could combine the two topics and review the merits of “Flaming Pit of Hell Sauce” on Adam’s Ribs.

  • Khirad : See, this is where I’m libertarian. Why is the legal marriage even tied to religion? Not the ceremony, but the state binding? I don’t get it. Isn’t this the simplest solution? Tell me how I’m wrong here.

  • funksands : Found out today that I am headed to LA for a few days….

  • choicelady : OK – are we on to BBQ sauce? Thank you Jesus! I’m running out of things to say!

  • kesmarn : Argh! Again!

  • funksands : Choice, sounds good to me. Clean and neat, no fuss.

  • Chernynkaya : Oops:«link» ionsearch.com/pi x/hhbbmucw8m.jpg

  • choicelady : funk – most mainline Protestant churches would be DELIGHTED if we went back to the European standard of marriage: married in the JPs office, wed in church (or not). Early colonists in New England and I think PA forbade marriage in church. Yup – it was not LEGAL to get married in church. It was an economic issue, and there were no such things as weddings until the 19th century. Hah! So today ministers would desperately like to END “by the power vested in me by the state of X” because they believe this violates the separation of church and state. To the county hall then to church, fine.

  • ADONAI : HA!

  • kesmarn : Awww, Cher. Couldn’t get the link to work.

  • Chernynkaya : AD–there are no shortage of things to kill each other over.

  • funksands : Adonai: Sports

  • Khirad : AD, who has the best BBQ sauce.

  • Khirad : Seems like a good accommodation. No devout pro-life Catholic has to violate their conscience, and they still provide the service.

  • ADONAI : If we ever did get rid of religion,i wonder what new thing we’d slaughter each other over?

  • funksands : I have a very good friend in New York who is I suspect getting very drunk right now….

  • kesmarn : Yes, c’lady, best kept secret is that there are any number of pro-choice nuns out there.

  • AdLib : Uh oh…they passed gay marriage in NY but they didn’t pass gay divorce! If you’re gay and get married in NY now, you’re stuck!

  • Chernynkaya : Kes==not that I know of, but we also drink this:«link» flickr.com/photo s/rckenned/17029 12825/

  • choicelady : kes – yes! I’m really cranking out years of having to parse this! I really have less trouble with Catholics and their stands on abortion etc. since learning Catholic hospitals give OUT Emergency Contraception to rape victims. I know because I did victim intervention and SAW it. But NON Catholic nurses give it. It’s a really good form of support via accommodation to values. I was impressed.

  • Khirad : BS troops. Love it.

  • funksands : I’m okay with that. Just have the state stop recognizing any legal authority for the churches and they can discriminate all they want.

  • AdLib : Aren’t the initials for Boy Scouts fitting?

  • Chernynkaya : Oh AL–sounds great. As my hubby says–jokingly I hope: Why should the gays suffer like the rest of us?

  • AdLib : That’s what we’re talking about Funk, the passage of bill and the exemption for discrimination by churches.

  • funksands : Hell yeah!!

  • kesmarn : Hey, funk!

  • choicelady : Cher – the use of schools is dwindling. More and more schools are turning the Boy Scouts away because they see a conflict. I don’t know how it’s being litigated or even if it is. BS troops now more often have their own place OR meet in churches.

  • ADONAI : Cher, They shouldn’t. But that’s a whole ‘nother issue.

  • AdLib : Hey Funk! Welcome to the party. Let’s all go to NY and get married!!!

  • kesmarn : c’lady, you must feel like “Ask-a-Lawyer” tonight!

  • ADONAI : Hello funk!

  • ADONAI : It;’s hard to take the moral high ground an anything in this country though. You soon find it falling out from under you.

  • Chernynkaya : Khriad–:lol:

  • funksands : sorry to barge in like that, but good news is hard to come by these days….

  • kesmarn : Love the illustration on the He’brew label. Is there a She’brew?

  • Chernynkaya : But the Boy Scouts DO use tax-payer institutions–sc holl campuses.

  • funksands : How about New York???!!!

  • choicelady : kes – a restaurant is a business, NOT a non-profit so comes under the public accommodations acts governed by civil rights laws. AdLib – the public services churches provide are open to all, no exceptions, but within their services, they still have the right to determine membership and standards of participation. Most churches get it and honor those differences. And most of my member denominations could NOT care less who you are and what you think – c’mon in!

  • Khirad : Yes you did, Cher. It was Jewlicious!

  • AdLib : Khirad – I’ll take a Sixer of Schmaltz!

  • Chernynkaya : Khirad–JINX!!

  • kesmarn : Whew…you had me worried there…

  • Chernynkaya : If I’m not mistaken, Khirad, didn;t I turn you onto it? «link»

  • ADONAI : kes, Again, I said private businesses. I’m not Rand Paul.

  • AdLib : CL – That’s interesting. NY passed Leno’s bill and CA couldn’t?

  • ADONAI : AL – I agree. Any public institution has no grounds to refuse on a whim.

  • AdLib : AD – There are MANY conscientious religious folks and churches out there, CL can testify to that. The problem is that the extremists get all the attention and ruin the rep of those who are truly compassionate.

  • kesmarn : What about a restaurant, AD? Okay for them not to serve people they don’t like?

  • choicelady : Adonai – as I understand it, the Boy Sprouts do NOT take any tax money so yes, they may discriminate. And they sure do!

  • Khirad : Schmaltz Brewing «link»

  • ADONAI : Cherm, I said any PRIVATE organization. And the Boy Scouts already discriminate. Because their private. Yo don’t like it? Don’t support them. As far as I’m concerned, they’re well within their rights.

  • Chernynkaya : See, AD, I think the kind of church you mention is what was originally the case. Small local churches. That’s really not the type I think we are talking about though.

  • choicelady : Khirad – He’brew? That is TOOOO funny!!!!

  • choicelady : AdLib – the NY bill is probably pinched right from Leno’s. It was a very good bill.

  • AdLib : AD – I agree, private organizations should have the right to decide who they want as members or who their group’s services will be extended to. However, as CL noted, once a group provides public services, they can’t discriminate.

  • choicelady : Adonai – that IS the standard. If you are purely private (including schools) you may discriminate. You may NOT however take a penny in tax money. That is why Oral Roberts University got in trouble with its racial segregation – they started taking our tax dollars. Hoo boy – did THEY get in hot water!

  • Khirad : I’ve had He’Brew – The Chosen Beer.

  • ADONAI : I remember my old church. They didn’t make a lot of money each year but every dime went right out the door to someone who needed it. Pastor lived in a small room int he back of the church. Never seen him with anew pair of shoes. A new anything. He was a pretty good guy. A little preachy :) but a good guy.

  • kesmarn : c’lady, I have a friend to works as a printer. He did the “Business Statement” for the local fundie mega-Church. His jaw dropped. HUGE $$$ to the pastor — from people TITHING on incomes of $18,000/year. Sinful.

  • Chernynkaya : AD–how can you say that? Should any organization be able to discriminate on race? Say, the Boy Scouts? Or a lunch counter?

  • AdLib : CL – Thanks for clarifying that. I was using an extreme example which isn’t applicable. I do want to read the specific wording in this bill though to know how far the reach is of indemnification.

  • choicelady : Kes and AdLib – the issue is whether it’s scramental, part of the membership rites and regulations or whether what they do is open to all. RW churches do not feed the hungry and house the homeless precisely to avoid serving the icky people they don’t like. Churches that DO open their doors do so without reservation.

  • ADONAI : tex, I have not. I’m a whiskey man though. Kentucky has great bourbon though.

  • choicelady : kes – only the RW churches get the megabucks and pass it on to the clergy. Most churches in America are just muddling through.

  • ADONAI : Honestly, any private organization should be able to refuse whomever they want for any reason they want.

  • choicelady : AdLib – no hospital may turn away anyone needing critical care. That means NO one. They then may send said person on to another hospital for more care when it’s safe. That issue was settled long ago. It’s a service isse, not a religious one. Catholic and SEventh Day ADventist hospitals DO serve everyone. They do have limits on what they do – but they cannot deny service to protect a person’s life. And before we go there – there is NO such thing as an emergency abortion. A D&C means the fetus or embryo is already dead. Clinics in one eastern city used to ROUTINELY send women with tubal pregnancies to the Catholic hospital that did the abortion. Why? Catholics are not required to give up their lives for a totally unviable pregnancy. A lot of our fears are unfounded.

  • texliberal : ADONAI, ever had a glass of a good Christian Brothers brandy?

  • kesmarn : I hear you, AdLib. I don’t know the legalities of that either.

  • AdLib : Kes – Appreciate that. I just don’t know what the wording is of the exemption that allows churches to discriminate when providing services, if it’s just on religious issues or if technically, a religiously owned business could legally refuse services.

  • kesmarn : I don’t have a problem with a church taking in a lot of $$$, if they return that cash as social service. But when the guys at the top make millions, it’s a different story.

  • Chernynkaya : To be honest. I can’t imagine the churches status changing in my lifetime.

  • ADONAI : tex, The Vatican is lined with treasure from when it was a conquering empire. Those days are long gone but they still get plenty of contributions and have shitloads in their bank.

  • texliberal : ADONAI, CL, I respectfully disagree, non-profit? You’ve never been to the Vatican. We can parse this all we want but organized religion has been the most PROFITABLE business in the history of the world.

  • AdLib : CL – I’m in agreement with you, no religious group should be dictated to as to what their practices are or who may join them or receive religious services. However, as you mentioned, once they provide services to the public, they need to operate for all the public.

  • kesmarn : LWers tend not to travel in large herds in general, I think.

  • choicelady : Salvation Army got in hot water. Today they serve everyone and they cannot proselytize if they take tax money.

  • ADONAI : i don’t think LW mega churches exist.

  • Chernynkaya : AD–non=profits Do pay taxes–it is not the non-profit status that is the same as a church. Churches have a totally different IRS code.

  • choicelady : Adonai – tax exemption rules out ALL political partisan recommendations for every 501-c-3.

  • kesmarn : Fortunately, a Catholic hospital wouldn’t do that, AdLib. We even treat criminals and such. No questions asked.

  • ADONAI : O.K., I give in. It just all seems very silly to me.

  • choicelady : tex – they don’t pay property taxes any more or less than the ACLU. NO non-profit pays property taxes. If you want to destroy the backbone of local services to those in need, keep insisting all non-profits must do that. You’d kill off every one of my congregations, all the charities in your town, and probably be left with only RW megachurches. Think this over…

  • AdLib : WOO-HOO!!!

  • AdLib : Here is where I do have a problem. Can you imagine a Mormon hospital, back when their dogma was racist, being defended for turning away a critically injured black person? Should a Catholic hospital be defended for turning away a critically injured gay person, resulting in their death? Of course not, not in a civilized society, prejudice should never be able to prevail in such a terrible way.

  • kesmarn : Thanks for that info, c’lady! I did not know that!

  • ADONAI : Cher, it doesn’t to me. They have tax exempt status because they are a non profit organization and they have no taxable contributions. Recommending a politician should not violate that.

  • Khirad : Yup, off to Governor Cuomo’s desk. 33-29.

  • Chernynkaya : I don’t know if this is still true, but a few years ago there was a ruckus because the Salvation Army only hired Christians. They served the entire community but had a strict hiring policy. As I think about it, I think they have that right.

  • choicelady : kes – Medicaid money lagely is not involved since you can’t pay for abortions with federal dollars – Hyde Amendment. It’s a moot point.

  • kesmarn : And INCOME taxes (the ones that tell their congregants how to vote that is). And Hi, tex!

  • choicelady : Adonai – from time immemorial NO non-profit may be partisan. It’s not permitted to use tax deductible money to do partisan work. Preachers teach the VALUES and people must then be free to make their own choices of candidates. Preachers may not hide behind tax exempt money AND dictate political choices. The ACLU could not do that either.

  • texliberal : You know, they can recommend whom ever they want, churches that is, as long as they start paying PROPERTY TAXES.

  • kesmarn : Did it finally pass, Khirad? Yay!

  • Khirad : How do you get work done after a vote like that! USA! USA!

  • choicelady : AdLib – if the function being served by the church such as food pantries were to refuse service that would run into problems because they are NOT doing something for just their own members. Once they open to the public, they must serve everyone. Catholic Charities serves everyone. UMMA, the Muslim clinic in South Central LA serves everyone. But Catholics can refuse the sacraments to non members. They can set standards of religious participation that will exclude those who are not baptized, confirmed, and follow the dictates of the faith. That is private, food banks and other services are NOT.

  • Chernynkaya : AD–they can recommend whomever they want–but they don’t get it both ways–get tax-exempt status. That seems fair to me.

  • AdLib : Welcome Tex!

  • kesmarn : C’lady, I think the problem arises when it’s Medicaid money that pays for the abortion, tubal or vasectomy. If the hospital takes Medicaid clients but picks and chooses on procedures. So far no one has made a fuss here, though/

  • Chernynkaya : Hey, tex!

  • ADONAI : Hello tex!

  • ADONAI : Cher, I don’t want our government run on religious philosophy. But I don’t want to tell a preacher he can’t recommend a politician to someone. Seems petty.

  • texliberal : Good evening from the right wing, evangelical capitol of the North American continent, Plano Tx

  • AdLib : CL – Very revealing about the exemption bill in CA. But we all know, The Right is about protecting the ability to instill fear and hatred so settling an issue and affirming self-determinati on to church’s blows their game.

  • Chernynkaya : Absolutely, Khirad. They were later additions to mollify the populace in various countries.

  • choicelady : kes – hospitals don’t run into problems because if they are religiously grounded, they do not take public money for their services that way. That makes them exempt. Adonai – people of faith certainly may come FROM their faith perspective to discuss issues of democracy. The RW wants to IMPOSE their views. Difference from us? We do not demand that Catholic hospitals do abortions. We respect differences of opinion.

  • Chernynkaya : AD, it is indeed very tricky. I think culture–which include religious views –inform our laws, but in our country there really can be spearation. “Render unto Caesar” and all.

  • AdLib : Cher – I don’t know, I haven’t seen the specifics of the exemption on whether it’s just church or if any church function, business or services can refuse serving gays.

  • kesmarn : AdLib! The ability to pronounce the word “nuclear” is the truest litmus test there is! :lol:

  • kesmarn : Catholic hospitals run into the same messy situations when they refuse to do tubal ligations, vasectomies and abortions.

  • choicelady : AdLib – NO federal law says churches have to treat anyone equally. The First Amendment on freedom of religion does not permit any governmental agency to dictate faith principles. That’s why we WANT the freedom to perform weddings for GLBT people. WE ARE being deprived of our freedom of religion. Again – churches are NOT public accommodations.

  • Khirad : Yes Cher, I’ve seen that in my copy of a Shabbat Prayer book. Aren’t all these questions over loyalty the same? Shari’a, Israel, or Vatican?

  • AdLib : Kes – My Church of the Adding Lib refuses to serve anyone who says “nuk-u-lar”.

  • kesmarn : I’m glad to hear that, CL.

  • choicelady : kes – your church of kes would be within its right to forbid services to Karl and company. Freedom of religion is total and absolute.

  • ADONAI : I understand a separation of church and state. I also understand trivial things that have nothing to do with that separation. We expect people whose faith influences EVERY part of their life to leave it at the door when they enter politics. That doesn’t seem fair or productive. All religious laws made in this country were never an attempt to minimize religion. Always remember that. It is up to us to make the two work.

  • AdLib : Pat Robertson must be rolling over in his own muck.

  • choicelady : AdLib – we supported Leno’s bill giving churches exactly the same exemption. It guaranteed that any church could take any stand it wished regarding preaching, marriage, etc. Ironically = the RW opposed it. Why? It would have taken away the scare message that same sex marriage would FORCE your church to marry gay people. It does not now and it would not. Churches do not have to wed gay couples any more than the Catholic church weds divorced people who do not qualify for an annulment.

  • Chernynkaya : AL–doesn;t that only apply if it’s federal marriage law?

  • kesmarn : My Church of Kes will refuse to serve T-Baggers and Karl Rove.

  • AdLib : CL – This sets up a Fed/State conflict in NY then. If Fed law says all must be treated equally and NY law says Christians can refuse service to people based on their sexual preference, I see a lawsuit.

  • kesmarn : That ‘separation of church and state thing’ AD.

  • choicelady : AdLib – that’s right. They do not have to serve gay couples. That’s their moral vision, and they can do what they want. It’s the First Amendment right.

  • ADONAI : That seems silly.

  • AdLib : CL, from the AP: Republicans who have the majority in the Senate had already said they approved the tougher exemptions that protect religious groups from discrimination if they refuse to serve gay couples.

  • choicelady : Adonai – NO the preacher does NOT have the right to recommend candidates under ANY circumstances.

  • kesmarn : I think not, if they claim tax-exempt status, AD.

  • Chernynkaya : Khirad, as does the Jewish religion. One of the daily prayers is for the United States government. And the same for the heads of any State.

  • choicelady : AdLib – the NY bill would let them do partisan campaigning? I think the IRS will not permit that! It’s a different matter if they stick to the ISSUE rather than endorsing candidates. Remember – WE vigorously worked our congregations on the NO on 8, so we have to be even here. They think we suck. We think they suck. The guidelines are clear. We don’t cross them. Any preacher can promote the IDEA of what they believe but can’t promote candidates.

  • AdLib : CL – SO glad you’re trying to keep Huey and the churches honest. WHo woulda thunk you needed to keep churches honest?

  • ADONAI : Doesn’t a church have the right to recommend politicians or a political view to their congregation? They all go there for guidance.

  • Chernynkaya : A Thanks. AL!

  • kesmarn : Thanks, Cher! So good to ‘see’ you!

  • AdLib : Hey Cher! I order your WiFi to stay connected!

  • Chernynkaya : Kes–love that you did that!!!!

  • Khirad : Little known, is that most interpretations of Shari’a involve following the law of the land. Think about it, that Caliphate they are paranoid about? The Caliphs were mostly political rulers.

  • AdLib : CL – In this instance though, the bill will grant churches the right to violate the law within their church.

  • kesmarn : c’lady, the local “Christian” fundie radio station was airing some anti-Muslim, anti-Obama crap that I caught on the car radio. I called the station when I got home and left a voice mail (all I could do) and requested a call back with their IRS status info along with a complaint about the content. I was away the next day, but I got a quick call back from the manager.

  • choicelady : AdLib – Craig Huey who is running for Congress here in LA against Hahn prints a partisan voter guide for churches. I’m trying to get him in dutch with the IRS for that. The churches, too. It’s illegal.

  • ADONAI : Hello Cher!

  • Chernynkaya : Hi all! I hope my wireless doesn’t cut in and out tonight.

  • AdLib : CL – But the truth is that, knowing that no politician will go after a church, especially in the Bible Belt they provide voter’s guides that are partisan, have partisan sermons, even tell people they will go to hell if they don’t vote for Republican candidates. That line is crossed so frequently and there is no will to enforce it.

  • choicelady : kes – what did MSNBC pre-empt Lockup with? I’m here, not watching. That’s funny!

  • choicelady : Also – the Christians who say their faith laws over-rule the Constitution are WRONG. Sharia law is private – Muslims don’t advocate placing it ahead of the Constitution, making them BETTER Americans than those RW Christians!

  • choicelady : AdLib – churches may, like any non-profit, campaign up to 5% of their income. They may NOT do so in a partisan manner. OUR churches do it so the RW can, too. Most spend NO money. They can advocate anything they like so long as it’s non-partisan and they don’t spend money. It’s the First Amendment issue.

  • ADONAI : Hey kes!

  • ADONAI : Many, many good people had to die to give us Civil rights legislation. I wonder how long this will last and what tragedy will finally put it in perspective.

  • AdLib : Hey Kes!

  • AdLib : Within their mosques, that is.

  • kesmarn : MSNBC actually pre-empted Lockup? Where are their priorities? Good Friday evening, all!

  • AdLib : Khirad – Why couldn’t Muslims make the case for their religious beliefs overruling US law if Christians can?

  • AdLib : Khirad – “Lockup – The Gay Marriage Episode”.

  • AdLib : AD – The US is hugely more religious than most developed nations. In other countries, mentioning one’s religion in a political campaign would be considered inappropriate, here, you can’t get eleected unless you do.

  • Khirad : What’s with this news? I’m missing Lockup.

  • AdLib : CL – RIght, that’s why I said most Christians support equality for gays…though that may mean civil unions in some of their minds.

  • Khirad : Great point on Shari’a. Ironic, no?

  • AdLib : CL – WHich brings up the church/state issue. If church’s are to be separated from government, they shouldn’t be permitted to campaign politically. Also, such precedent actually seems to provide for their fear of Sharia Law to be permitted if practiced in a mosque.

  • ADONAI : If it’s really religion that keeps us from allowing gay marriage in this country, does that mean the country is far more religious than we believe? Or just far more bigoted?

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think our folks are not always comfortable with the idea of weddings, but they definitely support same sex marriages as a civil right. And the same rights as opposite sex marriages – not a second class version.

  • choicelady : Hi AD.

  • AdLib : Hey AD!

  • choicelady : AdLib – churches are not considered public accommodations. And First Amendment rights permit churches to this day to refuse all kinds of things. Catholic clergy do not and may not marry divorced people. Oral Roberts type churches won’t marry inter-racial couples. Churches lie outside public accommodations. That’s why MY folks insist they should indeed have the RIGHT to perform weddings for same sex couples – OUR rights are violated when we cannot. Marriage is the state’s business. Weddings are ours. Don’t mix in with our wedding rights.

  • ADONAI : Hello

  • AdLib : And when I say Christians, I mean extremists on the right, not most Christians who support equality.

  • AdLib : Hey CL! The hypocrisy just never stops amazing me. Christians insisting on the right to hate their neighbor. Huh?

  • choicelady : Hi everyone – how’d you all get here so fast? Good thread – of course churches should be free to be as pissy about sex and everything as they like. But civil rights are civil RIGHTS not privileges.

  • AdLib : So…religious folks can still legally discriminate against gays even though they can marry. Can you imagine if this was about race instead of sexual preference? If applied to the Civil Rights Act, racists could still have white-only restaurants, bars, etc. and refuse to serve anyone who isn’t white. Well…I guess for Republicans, it still is progress.

  • AdLib : FYI: NY Senators are heading back into the chamber to vote on religious exemptions to gay marriage, the last obstacle before a vote on whether to legalize same-sex unions. Republicans who have the majority in the Senate had already said they approved the tougher exemptions that protect religious groups from discrimination if they refuse to serve gay couples.

  • AdLib : Okey doke!

  • Khirad : I hope so, and non-residential, right? –Be back in a minute.

  • AdLib : Sen. Stephen Saland (suh-LAND’) says he has long been undecided. He voted against a similar bill in 2009, helping kill the measure and dealing a blow to the national gay rights movement. Before he announced his intention, 31 senators were in favor, one short of a majority. If they all still vote that way, New York will become the sixth state, and by far the largest, where gay marriage is legal once Gov. Andrew Cuomo signs it into law.

  • AdLib : A veteran Republican senator tells The Associated Press he will vote yes on gay marriage, apparently giving the measure the support it needs to become law.

  • Khirad : I’m so confused, Rachel.

  • Khirad : And hi.

  • Khirad : Oh, nevermind…

  • AdLib : Hey Khirad! Looks like it’s a done deal!

  • Khirad : Yay New York State!!!

  • AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” when you arrive!

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our weekly live chat on the week’s events begins tonight at 7:00 pm PDT. Look forward to seeing you then!

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