Displaying 0 To 0 Of 0 Comments Huffington Post Goes NSA on Its Members Welcome to The Planet, RockyJ! What you recount is the real problem that this FB policy represents. Who wants to have their relationships with family and friends who support an opposing party, all messed up so that HP can make more money off of data mining and spend less money on moderating? Your experience with FB is exactly the cautionary tale that HP refuses to recognize, linking honest political views with FB connections can be a disaster. They’re not stupid so they know that’s part of the price some will pay…and it sure seems that they just don’t care. Typical corporate sociopathy, who needs it? » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:41 am Thanks Beatlex, really appreciate the props! » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:33 am Cool! Glad to hear it, SmotPoker! Some things are more appreciated when you have to work for them…so that’s probably one appreciated avatar! It can take a little while for it to show up here but it will within the hour. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:33 am I was just thinking about how the FB policy hits longtime users. For those who have posted a great deal at HP, consider all of the comments you’ve posted in years gone by, especially the ones that could be very provocative if a boss, clients or politically opposed friends read them and knew they were yours. All of us have posted very frank opinions at HP in good faith with the understanding that we had permanent anonymity, But when accounts are renamed via Facebook, all of your comments you’ve ever made will have your Facebook name on them. It is a massive betrayal in that sense because previous comments were posted freely due to that understanding of anonymity. That’s a huge reason why those who have been at HP the longest have the most to lose in terms of vulnerability if they connect their FB account there. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:31 am Hey Beatlex, not only are the number of comments low but consider how many will be self-censoring now, knowing that they might be stalked in their real identity via Facebook. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:23 am Hey AB, quite a nice surprise to have so many great folks from HP over here at The Planet. And yes, I blame Kalima completely for helping to start up The Planet. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:20 am Good to see you again, imusintheevening! At least among most folks here, you’re in the majority on not rolling over to HP on this Facebook demand. It is the last straw for many who have given them numerous chances to get the site back on track. It’s pretty clear now, they’re taking HP down the corporate railroad and you either ride with them as they order you to or you’re not allowed on board. Pretty easy decision from my POV. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:17 am OR, first you need to create a brand new WordPress.com account (if you don’t have one yet) then you use that account to login to Gravatar and add your avatar. It will then appear here and on all WordPress powered sites in the future without your having to do a thing. Here’s the link to use: » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:13 am Welcome to The Planet, wolf58! » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:10 am Hey Nirek, use this link to create a new account on WordPress.com then you can add your avatar at Gravatar.com: » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:07 am Hey SmotPoker, the signup process over there has changed. Go to this link… …and create a brand new account at WordPress.com. Then you will be able to login to Gravatar with that account and add your avatar. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 11:04 am Hey Murph, as to the issue of whether HP can moderate their blog as competently as they should, of course they can. For financial reasons, they choose not to. I think you identified what part of the problem is. If it is the case, as seems likely, that they hire young, low wage moderators because they see it as most cost efficient, why should anyone be surprised that the moderation is so poor? As you describe, those who are given such great power over others’ free speech for such low pay are young and less experienced. Is it any wonder that some of them don’t understand posts as well, overreact or make poor judgements? It doesn’t mean there is any bad intent on their part so this isn’t criticizing their intentions. It’s just the way things are that people with more life experience have learned more about life and the expression of ideas over their years. Lots of older folk unemployed out there, this would be an ideal fit for those who are computer savvy. If HP chose to invest in paying better wages and hiring more experienced people to moderate, one can’t argue the logic that there would be better moderation. It’s a situation that reminds me of the Repubs undermining government then complaining that government doesn’t work. Sure, if you don’t do all you can to make something succeed, it’s easy to claim it can’t be done but not necessarily true. I very much like your proposition on moderation, a layered approach that allowed established members to initially moderate a comment then have a higher level HP moderator (not an intern type) either approve deletion or re-post the comment. Very smart, pragmatic and effective. The consern HP expressed to you about, “How do we know who to trust?” is a bit silly. When you hire someone, how do you know they will do their job well? You give them a probationary period and if they do well, they continue. If not, they are let go. That’s a hiring practice that’s been around for a long time, one I’ll bet HP applies regularly. So I think there’s a bit more going on behind their refusal to adopt your smart proposal. Before I left HP, I made a suggestion similar to yours, asking them to enlist trusted members to help moderate trolls and hostile posts, at least as a preliminary and immediate step…because back then, they hired too few moderators and trolls were posting unfettered. They weren’t interested in that concept back then either but I think for different reasons, primarily the concern of giving authority at their site to non-employees. I understood, it’s a valid argument but I disagreed with that. Just to be clear, when I assert that HP is run with a “Like it or lump it” attitude, I am not referring to the good folk there who help manage the site that you’ve come to know. I respect your sensibilities and don’t question that the good people you mention at HP are good people. But I doubt they are the ones who decide policy for the site, that’s who I’m talking about. I see nothing in the policy and operational decisions at HP that express anything other than, “It’s our house, we make the rules and if you don’t like it, too fucking bad.” For example, the auto-moderation that censors so many inoffensive comments, the allowing of trolls to spew venom while responses are deleted and this latest force-feeding of anti-anonymity policy that a vast majority of members opposed. I just don’t see how it can be argued that any of that reflects “The customer is always right” sensibility. It’s good that you didn’t have a FB page before and can limit the amount of data HP and others can glean from it about you but the policy does need to be viewed in a global way. How will it impact the majority of HP members who have likely built up very robust FB pages with huge amounts of personal information? I think such things have to be viewed as whether they work for the community as a whole as opposed to certain individual cases. And if they fail that test, they shouldn’t be instituted or continued. As for HP staff assurances that people’s data won’t be mined, HP also promised that existing members wouldn’t be forced to lose their anonymity. They and their promises have zero credibility and even though some may earnestly believe what they’re promising, with a huge financial profit to be made from this data mining, it is quite hard to believe a corporation would voluntarily choose not to make more money just to be “a good guy”. Look at Google which swore not to be evil, they have become very evil about spying and datamining on its users. This is what corporations do and its like the frog and the scorpion tale we’ve discussed before, why did it sting the back of the frog in the river and doom them both to death, “Because it’s my nature.” I disagree, the whitelisting of pundits doesn’t dispute my portrayal of HP, it is an anecdotal incident that pales against the vast collection of corporate decision making there. Perhaps that is one of the few victories the good folks who manage the day to day work at HP won with their superiors to lighten their workload and accord good bloggers a perq but it is an exception to the rule, not the rule itself that has been well established by a preponderance of oppressive (and more profitable) policies. Agreed, the battle to limit last names to an initial is Pyrrhic. People’s names still appear and even a first name and initial give a prospective stalker a lot more to work with to track someone down on FB than they would have had before. We live in the era of the corporation. They are people, their money is speech, they dominate our politics and can even stop Congress from passing laws supported by 90% of the public. And they control a lion’s share of the wealth in America. It’s no fun to have to accept how much they own and control in this country (and this world) and how their acquisition of media entities that we’ve felt a loyalty to ends up corrupting them to serve the will of their owners. It’s like the old 1950’s horror movies of aliens taking over humans from inside. They look like the people you’ve come to know and trust but inside, they are something completely alien to who that person really was. I think that in such cases, we need to use our x-ray vision and judge something based on what it is on the inside, not on its facade. CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, Huffington Post, all are owned by corporations and as such, all have a legal duty to accomplish one thing, provide the maximum amount of profits to their shareholders. As I’ve mentioned, shareholders can sue and win if a corporation makes less money than it could have because it “did the right thing” for its customers or the country. If one doesn’t want this corporatization of society to continue, the choice is very simple. People have to stop supporting those corporations. And there are good corporate players like Costco and others that can and should be wholly supported but IMO, continuing to patronize a business that a corporation runs in a way that is antithetical to one’s values, is supporting that corporation’s opposition to those values. Great to be able to have this kind of discussion with you, Murph! » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 10:47 am Aw shucks, ma’am! » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 9:30 am Thanks TechYes! » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 9:29 am Cheers HLL! » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 9:29 am Great rundown, RF Dude. Murph also shared that his concerns over this policy were met with a condescending attitude as well. It’s not unusual, those who are in a position of power often let it go to their heads and see their thought process as superior. It’s one thing to have to deal with that kind of crap at work or in our politics but who needs to voluntarily add it into their personal life? » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 9:28 am Hey Fergie1, it is a bit absurd to think of how compliant HP expects their members to be despite what an imposition their policies are. Giving up actual freedom of expression through moderation and deletions of inoffensive posts, giving up the ability to have civil conversations and debates with trolls spewing at members left and right, giving up privacy and anonymity. It’s a corporation, they don’t know the meaning of the word “enough”, they always want more so there can only be more “giving up” by members and more “taking” by the corporation. That’s the dynamics of how corporations operate. Walmart can attest to that. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 9:16 am Murph, for those who haven’t already built up a Facebook account, it may not be a big imposition to set up a new empty account just for the purposes of being able to blog at HP…but for those who have existing accounts with lots of personal info, this isn’t an option. And how does the ability to set up hollow FB accounts accomplish HP’s alleged goal of stopping trolls as well? Why can’t trolls do the same thing as you? So then HP will have trolls with empty FB accounts continuing to infest HP but good bloggers with existing, substantive FB accounts will be left with their privacy compromised. This just isn’t a sensible policy. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 9:09 am Hey confuseddemocrat, this is a situation where it’s a “one size fits all”. HP is basically saying, “This is how we want to do things, you’ll do it our way, end of story.” They take for granted that those who have been faithful members will eventually conform because they are the big and powerful HP and members are helplessly addicted to them. The mindset behind this FB policy is even more offensive than the policy. The degree of hubris they are exhibiting is stunning. They just don’t care. If their policy makes you lose your job, they don’t care. If it allows mentally deranged people to stalk you, they don’t care. If it strips you of your right to privacy, they don’t care. Why? Because they are a for-profit corporation that only cares about its bottom line and whatever the specifics, forcing their members to give up their anonymity is good for their bottom line so the damage it could cause to members is irrelevant. They see themselves as irresistible to their members and act as if they are free to do whatever they want to them because they have no choice but to stay addicted to HP. I think we need a 12 Step Program for HP addicts. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 8:58 am TechYes, we’re on the same page. It is kind of amazing that HP decision makers saw no issue with forcing people to open themselves and their careers up to such vulnerability…or had such hubris as to think it didn’t matter. In the real world, employers do spy on employees’ FB accounts and HP has even posted stories about people who have been fired just for the opinions they expressed on FB. Now multiply that by all the comments people post on HP and those types of situations would explode. As you say, for financial reasons, they don’t moderate the site in a way that respects their members, they moderate it in the way that is the least financially burdensome to them. And that’s to treat members and what they write as unnecessary and expendable. As for Tim McDonald, one of the outraight lies in his post is that the moderation going on over there now has always been there. I started at HP in 2007 and no, there was no moderation program back then of any profundity. In most all cases, when you submitted a comment, it posted. So no, there did not used to be such an oppressive censorship at HP and saying there was to justify even greater disrespect of members, so folks will grade on a curve and say, “Well, since they have been restrictive and controlling all along, I guess this FB thing isn’t THAT bad.”, is just further testament to how dishonest and untrustworthy those in charge at HPAOL are. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 8:45 am HLL, the perspective you give this situation is exactly what’s needed. As you describe, sometimes you have to step back and try to see the big picture of all the individual compromises one has been making here and there and consider the sum total. I don’t think that if any of us were blogging at an open site like this and presented with the following proposition to move to another site, that many would find the offer appealing or in sync with their principles: “You are invited to blog at a massive global news blog where your comments will not be posted immediately and in many instances will be deleted without being published even though they have nothing offensive in them. Your comments that are eventually posted will be responded to at times by hostile, racist and offensive people who might stalk you and your replies to them may be deleted. Our format provides a disruptive experience for those seeking to have substantive and extended conversations and you will be required to link to your Facebook account and give up your personal privacy. Sign up today!” Taken one by one, each deterioration of free expression and respect for members at HP may seem palatable but when viewed as a package, they are hard to rationalize away. » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 8:31 am Thanks for posting this Kalima! » Posted By AdLib On December 13, 2013 @ 8:05 am Sally, what a mess! And for those who trust HP’s assurance that linking their FB account at HP won’t be an issue for them, I do feel bad. Fighting trolls is dumb but always tempting, in the end though it accomplishes nothing but at best, briefly quieting them a little…until they pop up the next time. I have never seen a fight with a troll turn that troll into a Dem. And while some may believe that the troll battle informs others, statistics show that the majority of people at blogs already have a cemented political view so arguments don’t move them. Maybe a tiny few bewildered people change their minds by witnessing a troll fight but I’d bet that’s pretty rare. » Posted By AdLib On December 12, 2013 @ 10:05 pm Hey seehowtheyrun, great to see you! I would agree that HP might be happier to lose those who make a real difference in standing up for issues and positions that conflict with HP’s corporate positions. It may be a double whammy for HP for you to stay there and post here too (they won’t let you post everything you want to over there so you could do so here). No one needs to visit just one site anyway. I will continue to check out HP each day (along with other sites) to see what’s going on there but I won’t be posting. » Posted By AdLib On December 12, 2013 @ 9:59 pm Hey Murph, really appreciate all your contributions here and your solid support of The Planet. We do disagree on this matter but that’s what happens with any independently minded people of goodwill. I wouldn’t dispute your characterization of those you know who manage at HP as well intentioned and dedicated but I think the problem comes from much higher up the ladder over there. No matter how it might be spun, the pattern of behavior and decision making about the operation of the site has been firmly in line with corporate thinking and the diminishing of respect for individuals. You’re in a unique position over there but the majority of members who don’t hold a similar standing are very familiar with being treated as unimportant and just part of the “troublemaking” masses, having so many of their comments held and deleted for no good reason except that auto-moderation helps the execs run their site more profitably. They are in the business of blogging, that is the primary basis of their site’s value and yet they don’t want to pay for operating a blog site in a way that respects its members. If it took hundreds of staff just to properly moderate questionable comments, they should invest in their members and their site’s reputation by doing so. When you treat innocent people like vandals and their written expression like toilet paper, it’s problematic. The correct motto is, “The customer is always right,” not, “The customer just needs to accept what we want to do with them because it works best for us so stop complaining.” HP runs its site by the latter sensibility. I do not wish to paint with too broad of a brush, there are no doubt many earnest, conscientious and responsible people working at HP. But they don’t make the big decisions. As for HP’s intentions, I can’t applaud them because I don’t think they are as they are represented. They claim that this is meant to bring a more civil tone to the site but their tactic is to compromise the privacy of their members and even set some up for being harassed or worse. I find that particularly more uncivil and far more troubling than having to wade through troll comments. It is the Mussolini situation, HP wants to make the trains run on time and sees growing control over their members as a reasonable path to making that happen. Some HP folk who have posted here have shared stories of how they were stalked by mentally deranged people who found them on Facebook before this policy. How many more people stalked is an acceptable amount for HP in order to pursue their goals the way they want to? They exhibit no respect for people’s privacy through this decision. They can claim that people can control their privacy at FB but that’s not very honest. Privacy is increasingly violated at FB, HP has posted many stories about that so it doesn’t shine a great light on them for acting as if they have no clue about that. Nothing HP has done since taking a turn down this descending path in 2008 has made things better when it comes to censoring free expression, subjecting members to harassment and hate speech from trolls and now, infringement on personal privacy. One has to look at the only two possibilities. Either this exertion of control over their members is unintentional or it is intentional. All corporately owned websites appear to evolve in a similar manner, they infringe more and more on the privacy of their members and they find ways to profit off of that violation of privacy. Here is just a straight and simple fact. If all members at HP link to their Facebook accounts, HP will have a goldmine of personal data on them. They will have in many cases, a profound amount of comments clearly portraying the specific political views and party affiliation of someone and they will simultaneously have a link to all of the personal information on that person that is posted at FB. Imagine the value of that to those seeking data on people, corporations and any clients they sell their data to can know all about a person and their political views, how comforting is that? And how much power would that give to those who had that info on millions of people in the US and around the world? The heightened censorship of comments at HP has also been giving them more and more control over the character of what “the public” is saying on their blog, providing at the very least more of an opportunity to shape the representation of the public’s sentiment. Add to that the complete collapse of journalistic integrity on a news site that elevates sideboobs and Kardashians above truly important stories. To be fair, one would have to stipulate that HP has committed an outright betrayal of its members by forcing upon them a policy they swore they would not implement. After the uproar when they first announced that they were going to do this, Arianna and HP quickly backpedaled and claimed it wouldn’t apply to existing members. Instead, they took this deceptive and sneaky approach of forcing it on everyone in a sudden fell swoop. That is not a tactic performed by someone of goodwill. Someone of goodwill would have worked with their customers and not treated them like mice walking into a trap. It is trading one outrage for another but doing so in an unprincipled way. That bell can’t be unrung, they have lied to their members and have ambushed them with this policy. Whatever promises and assurances follow are undercut by the damage to their credibility. Imagine if a politician, one that came to their position and power because of the people who supported him, lied to those same people and suddenly forced a law upon them that violated their privacy. Even if they assured their constituents that it was all for the best and even if the politician actually believed that, betrayal is resonant and revealing about one’s true character. As I know you’d agree, corporations are not people. They operate solely to generate maximum profits and have no principles or ethics. They seek to exploit the needs and desires of the greatest number of people to yield the greatest returns to themselves. They do not place a great value on the individual or their rights. Everything they do including their public relations dance (such as the oil companies, Walmart, etc. always running ads about how they care and how good they are for all of us), is done with one purpose in mind, making more money. Honesty? Trust? Respect? I don’t think we expect any of those from a corporation. It’s a hard pill to swallow but HP is owned by a massive corporation, AOL. They are making decisions at the site and treating those who blog there as corporations will. There is always a justification to provide to people as to why it’s in their best interest to compromise on things that matter to them if they want what the corporation has to offer. That doesn’t make it right. And this is not right, it is quite wrong but not surprising. Facebook, Google, all the major web entities keep sliding towards more and more invasion of privacy and personal information and more potential profits in continuing in that direction so HP’s move seems very much in line with that corporate web mindset. Some folks don’t want to support that. They blog because they want to connect with other concerned folk out there and explore and debate issues and ideas…and even joke around a bit. That does not have to be married to supporting a corporation or a system that essentially disrespects and exploits them. No one needs to be at HP, they are there because they choose to be. And when big entities take “the little people” for granted and assume that no matter how they disrespect them and treat them like part of a mob instead of individuals, they won’t go anywhere else, they are sometimes surprised by the blowback from their own hubris. HP and Arianna knew full well that their members did not want their anonymity taken away so their way of dealing with that was to lie to them then suddenly force that policy on them. That is not ethical. You pay a price in the free market for treating your customers poorly, there are other sites and other ways to experience blogging. Not everyone prefers to shop at Walmart, some prefer to go to Mom and Pop stores where they’re treated like a valued customer and a real person. I think that many have grown tired of being under siege by both trolls and oppressive policies at HP and they’re ready to move on. For some, change can be a good thing. Murph, though we couldn’t be on more opposite sides on this issue, I respect your views on HP and their intentions even though I disagree with them. You’re everything you describe management at HP to be, dedicated, earnest and conscientious. Many people will agree with you and remain at or join up at HP. My prediction though is that the new situation there will be quite stifling but blogging at HP and HP itself will continue. I’m reminded of the old Aesop’s Fables moral and it’s expressed with no negativity, just acceptance of the subjective nature of things, one man’s meat is another man’s poison. » Posted By AdLib On December 12, 2013 @ 9:46 pm Cheers Murph! As you might have guessed, I do have a different view on HP than the one that you expressed and will post it shortly but as always, I respect your POV on this as I know you do mine. Best example I could imagine for other folks to see how members here can be so diametrically opposed in their opinions but still have conversations like thoughtful people. » Posted By AdLib On December 12, 2013 @ 8:20 pm Very cool, RF Dude, thanks so much for spreading the word! » Posted By AdLib On December 12, 2013 @ 7:55 pm Hey M Cubed, great to see you too! Look forward to seeing more of you here! » Posted By AdLib On December 12, 2013 @ 7:51 pm That has been their MO, pinkpantheroz. Exploiting Progressives very similarly to how they use RW trolls to do so in comments, posting provocative stories on the latest BS spewed by a showboating Right Winger who doesn’t really have any power just to whip up Progressives which increases their profits. A cynical manipulation of the very Progressives they view as their main audience. And all that mindless drivel passing for “news”, nip slips, celebrities in sheer clothes, Palin and other nutjobs having their every burp elevated to a meaningful outrage…it’s all just a game to the HPAOL execs. And the best way to beat a rigged game is to kick the board over and walk away. » Posted By AdLib On December 12, 2013 @ 7:50 pm Can’t top KT’s assessment, agree with his explanation as to why there’s genuine and justified hostility towards HP now like never before. » Posted By AdLib On December 12, 2013 @ 7:37 pmComments Posted By AdLib
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