Vox Populi – 6-21-2013

AdLib : Night!

choicelady : And you, AdLib. GREAT conversations! Thank you! See you next week!

AdLib : Have a cozy evening tonight and a wonderful weekend!

AdLib : ATT baby! Yep, it’s late, wonderful chatting with you and great to be back at Vox! Thank you again, you are the best!

choicelady : If you’re not Verizon, I think you’re cool. LOL!!

AdLib : Must be the NSA getting even with me for all my disses of them tonight! Hah! They don’t scare my iPhone!

choicelady : Are you ready to call it a night? I picked up the bottles while you were off line.

choicelady : What a revoltin’ development THAT was!

AdLib : My wifi revolted! Thank goodness for my iPhone!

choicelady : Oh – there you are!

choicelady : Well since you’ve vanished, I’m packing it in, too. We will pick up these ideas more I suspect. It’s NOT going away anytime soon! Good night, AdLib – be well!

choicelady : Are you still there? You dropped off the ‘balcony’?

choicelady : Yup – Dark Chocolate is one thing. Supporting the Dark Side is something entirely different!

choicelady : I know you’d always do the right thing – that’s not in doubt. I guess what’s scary is knowing what would work and what would not. None of us can plan that ahead. I also know that the EmoProgs would capitulate – they never have done anything, so there’s no use thinking they WOULD. I am shocked when they call for revolution – hells bells, it would muss their hair.

AdLib : CL – And envisioning one’s child to be cooperating with or even helping to perpetrate evil, because their parent taught them through their actions that giving into The Dark Side is okay if you’re afraid of the consequences, would just not be acceptable to me after all I have taught and tried to reflect about being a good person to my daughter.

choicelady : I know – I think a lot about your daughter and my granddaughter by proxy. Good chocolate notwithstanding, you HAVE to have principled opposition to evil, or evil WILL win.

AdLib : CL – When you hear war heroes talking about their amazing feats, often you’ll hear, “I was scared shitless!”. Being brave doesn’t mean not being scared, it’s standing up for the right thing despite your fear.

choicelady : Well the ‘standing up’ consisted of pretending it wasn’t happening! When I’d get calls, I’d just act as if they were my new BFF – and for some reason that seemed to work. A certain amount of good humor goes a long way. But it did NOT mean I wasn’t fearful and worried – I just turned out to be REALLY good at deflecting them!

AdLib : CL – It’s a little added consideration when you’re a parent but the flip side is that, what precedent are you setting for your kids if you just roll over and conform to evil? You have to fight it, one way or another and even if the RW Extremists took over here, I’d have to fight them as I know you would.

AdLib : CL – I think that incident with the FBI shows how you would do the right thing in the end. That is scary and I think a lot of you for standing up to them the way you did!

choicelady : I like to think I’d have worked covertly! I just don’t know. I also cannot think I’d stand idly by and let people be hurt. We have talked about where we could hide people. That I could do. It’s just so horrid to think we MIGHT have to do this again. When Obama won re-election, that was my VERY first thought – oh thank goodness, I don’t have to face that yet. Yet.

choicelady : I finally – just last week – told Greg how scared I’d been in 2003 when I kept getting calls from the FBI after my refusal to deal with that “reporter” and would not provide names. I wasn’t terrified, but I was worried. I did not know who was listening, who was reading my email, who was tracking me. I know certain incidents, but I will never know the whole of it. That was very unnerving. It did not stop me, but it did make for some uneasy days. I have no such worries now but the Patriot Act and all of its fallout MUST be changed. I’m so relieved Obama is meeting with civil rights groups and human rights activists – we have to have this discussion not for him – for the future.

AdLib : It’s a harder thing to do, that’s for sure, standing up to a regime in power as opposed to those vying for power. You’re a fighter though, one way or another, had you been in that place and time, you would have worked with an underground or something I’d bet.

choicelady : When I looked closely at that base of support, it was always a minority. The seizure of power quickly terminated opposition – but the opposition had been powerful and vocal until then. I cannot say – and it’s a huge issue with me about myself – that I’d have been vocal AFTER the Nazis took total control. It was a terrifying time. But I’ve determined to be vocal so they CANNOT take power again. But fear is real, and I’m not sure what I’d do if that happened in America. I’ve stood up to the wannabes. I’m not sure I’m brave enough to stand up to those who might succeed.

AdLib : CL – As long as the extremists can be brought to a position of seeing those with different opinions as human, not devil-manipulate d enemies…their ability to be vicious is diminished.

AdLib : CL – But too many Germans stood silent while the Nazis took over. And they did have a lot of support from nationalists, racists and anti-semites who were anxious to blame the Jews, gays, foreigners, etc. for their suffering.

choicelady : Nah – they KNOW they have no unearthly powers. If they did they’d not be so embattled.

choicelady : I am quite serious that the cohesion I achieved with a significant dominionist, the collegiality he commended me for, is something important to me. We won’t agree on a lot, but we did finally agree on one point, one of MY points, and that and humor from me gave us a chance to be kind to each other. That is worth a lot. He’s not a bad person. Nor am I!

AdLib : Then let’s call them “Witches!” and shout, “Burn the witches!”, that should freak them out!

choicelady : I agree, though I must admit it might be fun! The look in their eyes is kind of cool. That said, it has no staying power, and it does not win ‘hearts and minds’.

AdLib : CL – I think we agree that shouting, “Heretic!”, “Unbeliever!” or “Witch!” just isn’t the way to go after extremists.

choicelady : Nazis came to power totally through illegal means. They never EVER won majorities. Hitler used illegitimate means to become Chancellor, and his power never had a majority popular base. THAT is why preserving the voting rights act is so critical.

AdLib : CL – It’s the stupidity that insecurity breeds. As long as people are afraid, they can be led like sheep because they helplessly look to authoritarian voices. I no longer wonder at how Nazi Germany happened, I know now that when people are fearful enough about their present and future, many will jump on any bandwagon offering them security and others will be too fearful to stand up against what they know is wrong.

choicelady : That is “personal Aversion” to flaming pyres. I think I’m getting tired – dyslexia of the fingers.

choicelady : The only reason some liberal theologians are using the term is shock value. The religious right is NOT used to being called up for being outside the faith. It may be useful in that regard, but “heresy” seems to demand horrible consequences. As a descendant of both Puritans (Pilgrims) AND Huegenots, I have a personal version to flaming pyres.

AdLib : Agreed, calling religious nuts “heretics” is kind of counterproductiv e. But they are hypocrites of the highest degree.

choicelady : Beginning with anti-Irish hate, moving on through the KKK to Jim Crow, and now anti-immigrant rants, the upper classes always DO manage to get the lower classes to foment against their neighbors instead of looking at “the man” as their COMMON enemy. How stupid is that?

AdLib : Yep, those way down on the bottom rung of the societal ladder either have to face it and fight to try and move up from there or dwell there like victims and losers who need the drug of biological supremacy to feel superior just because they were born white and are whatever religion they are.

choicelady : My reply to white supremacists is that the ONLY function skin has is to keep your guts from falling on the ground. The color thereof is pretty irrelevant to that function.

choicelady : Ummm – I don’t think so….

choicelady : sorry – found ‘the truth’.

choicelady : That’s exactly the word – perverse. Suddenly some decent theologians are now calling these folks “heretics”. Knowing the history of that, I’m not sure I embrace it, but it’s useful sometimes to point out that just being zealots is no guarantee you’ve actually found ‘

AdLib : Maybe they were referring to your not running in a marathon?

AdLib : CL – Yes, that’s my point. Christianity is named after someone who was about love, peace and humanity. So when one bases a hateful, vindictive religion off of Christianity, it’s perverse.

choicelady : LOL!! That’s true! White CHRISTIAN supremacy is the ultimate wrath against the rest of us! I got called out on a blog I don’t frequent as a ‘race traitor’ as well as a pagan. Oh, well.

AdLib : I don’t see any difference between such people and racists who often are poor and lead disappointing lives but at least they’re superior to others because they’re white. Of course the racists who are born again win the Daily Double.

choicelady : It’s NOT part of their core message. It’s the central part of Christianity as an historical or particular view, but the Pentecostals and fundamentalists see the most negative views of god and man as the core values. They repudiate Jesus’ teaching entirely and project his wrath and hate against all of us who are different from them. Google “Jesus with a Gun” and see. It’s jaw droppingly horrible.

AdLib : It’s such hypocrisy that so many people who see their religion being such a big part of them, seem to go out of their way to ignore the central message of their religion, which in all cases, is about love.

choicelady : You nailed it. Most of the ‘born again’ people outside clinics are ‘born again’ because they NEED to be. Their lives were disasters! They find solace in rules they must follow and finally feeling superior to the secular and liberal religious folks whose lives WORK. They think they’re better now, and that sense of rage and superiority keep them afloat. If they honestly had to make amends to the world, they’d never catch up. I honestly felt sorry for them – but not sorry enough not to put their asses in jail when I could.

AdLib : I would guess some people in religions are very unhappy and take at least some solace in there being a vengeful and vindictive God that will send all those people who believe wrong to hell…then all the people they’re jealous of will be jealous of them.

choicelady : Yup – that’s the basic bottom line. We invented God in OUR image, not the other way ’round.

AdLib : Then again, if you are an angry person, I imagine that one might project that onto their perception of God.

choicelady : A cop I knew who was dealing with the anti-abortion people, mostly the Dominionists, asked me once why they had such an angry and grim view of God. He was a lapsed Catholic but even at that he knew his church at least promised hope and joy and optimism. I had to agree that I could not see why people had glommed onto religions that were so NEGATIVE.

AdLib : CL – Heh!

AdLib : CL – Makes me think that they have a much more distant relationship with God. I mean, I always kid around with people I’m close to, don’t you?

choicelady : Code? Not going there! I think it was just – you know – thunder.

choicelady : AdLib – I keep wondering why the fundies don’t have as good a sense of humor about god as you do. If he invented bowling and shirts, don’t you think he’d be amused by our amusement?

AdLib : Funk probably needs to catch up on his sleep after all that early morning thunder. That sure sounds like code for something, doesn’t it?

choicelady : oops – funk is gone. I hope it goes well. sigh.

choicelady : funk – I forget where the ‘family’ is?

choicelady : AdLib – there you go…

AdLib : CL – Yep, a Hawaiian type shirt, like The Big Lebowski?

choicelady : funk – I hope it’s not an awful trip. But remember – this, too, shall pass.

AdLib : It’s a package deal, Funk. Just remember next time to keep your receipt if you want to make an exchange.

choicelady : AdLib – pink and baby blue? Baby blue and black? Polyester or natural fibers? Or a kind of Hawaiian shirt in really clashing colors?

AdLib : Funk – If that’s the case, you may want to be sure to knock on the front door before you go in the house.

choicelady : funk – GOOD LUCK! I remember your descriptions of your inlaws. Just keep thinking – they produced your wife, they produced your wife…and hope that compensates.

AdLib : When hearing thunder, I imagine God wearing a really loud bowling shirt for some reason.

choicelady : AdLib – where’d God get the pins and what ARE they?

funksands : I gotta turn in. Out of town next week visiting the f-ing in laws. Wish me luck…

choicelady : funk – well, that explains it! The Great Plains are notorious for those bowling lanes. My fave part of summer was ‘watching the storms come up’ from hot, humid dead calm to that. It usually took 1-3 hours and the drama was INCREDIBLE. Then, if you were REALLY lucky, the storms not only lasted for hours but cooled things down and dried them out. LOVE it and miss it a lot.

funksands : LOL

AdLib : Funk – Wow. And just imagine what size bowling shoes God wears.

choicelady : funk – PLEASE steal our Nestle plant!

funksands : Choice, I was in Minneapolis for a few days. 2am last night there was about 45 minutes of bowling lanes in the sky. First time I’d ever heard it. Really cool.

AdLib : Funk – I have heard rolling thunder, pretty amazing.

choicelady : AdLib – I know that’s the strategy, but I think the genetic issue might prevail on water, too.

choicelady : funk – absolutely! Are you having rolling thunder? I’m from the Midwest where that was the norm. We are supposed to get those storms Sunday=Wednesday . I will await rolling thunder with eagerness. It’s supposed to be in the 60s on Tuesday!

funksands : We tried. Our plutocrats simply couldn’t overcome yours. Better luck next time I guess. Watch out though, we might steal your Nestle bottling plant though!

AdLib : CL – That’s not true, if you own land, you own the water under or on it. Corporations are trying to buy up land around aquifers so they will own it. There was a great section of the doc, The Corporation, where the World Bank demanded a city in Bolivia let Bechtel own all their water…includin g rainwater! Here’s a clip: «link»

funksands : Well folks I’m sorry I don’t have more time, but I am bushed. By the way, anyone hear ever experience actual “rolling thunder?”

choicelady : funk – just remember, dear, the Kings, rotten as they are, could have been yours had your capitalists only tried harder.

funksands :

choicelady : funk – grrrrrrr.

funksands : But Choice, if you don’t have a basketball team, how can you be a real city????

choicelady : AdLib – LOL!! Desalinization King!

choicelady : AdLib – yup. Nestle bottles our tap water and pretends they did something special. Eff ’em. AND Johnson!

AdLib : CL – Good thing I’ve invested in a desalination plant. My dividends are measured in gallons.

AdLib : CL – So what’s the deal with Nestle? Has Johnson let them use tap water for bottling?

choicelady : AdLib – water is not ‘extracted’ but naturally present. Same with air. Cannot commandeer that which we get free from nature. It’s different from minerals and even agriculture. So we have some precedent in the genetic materials issue just voted down for privatization.

AdLib : CL – I remember your describing that! Scary stuff! Glad the sequester is cutting lots of government stuff!

choicelady : Grmuble – I will drill a well in the backyard before I buy bottled water…

choicelady : AdLib – it makes no sense to ‘own’ that which our city gets through the taps. Sure we pay a fee, but not on a ‘per drink’ basis! That our stupid mayor has let them do this is just another reason Kevin Johnson, ballplayer, has GOT to GO.

AdLib : Funk – Maybe Exxon will get into the beverage business, “Try Frack! It’s frackin’ great!”

AdLib : It will be a literal life and death battle as corporations try to corner the market on water. These sociopathic entities have convinced themselves that it is no different than foodstuffs or minerals and if they can own something people need, they can charge through the nose for it. But anyone with humanity in them knows that water is not like oil or gold and you can’t price people out of water or they will come for you.

choicelady : AdLib – oh hell – business as usual. I was flying into O’Hare in 2004 when we suddenly aborted our landing and took off again – plane in our runway. And I SWEAR that the planes I saw coming back from P’burgh last April were MUCH closer than 3 miles. That’s why I was FINE with refunding the FAA and tower people!!!! I’ve never seen planes that close before!

funksands : Choice, its what our future wars will be fought over. Of course by then Cool Ranch Fracking Fluid is all the kids will be drinking.

funksands : Maybe the planes needed a hug.

choicelady : funk and AdLib – the fight for free water is the next global issue. The asshats who are privatizing are in it for the fight of their lives. You cannot take what you did NOT make!

AdLib : “The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration is investigating why two airplanes came too close to each other over New York City last week. A Delta Air Lines Boeing 747 arriving at John F. Kennedy International Airport came close to a Shuttle America Embraer E170 departing from LaGuardia Airport at around 2:40 p.m. June 13, the FAA said in a statement Friday. The Delta flight originated in Narita, Japan; the Shuttle America was heading for Jacksonville, Florida. The planes were about a half-mile apart horizontally and 200 feet vertically, the FAA said. The required separation is 3 miles horizontally or 1,000 feet vertically.”

funksands : Ad, that’s what Coca Cola is doing all over India.

choicelady : AdLib – It’s JP Morgan’s wet dream.

AdLib : Ruh-roh!

funksands : «link»

AdLib : CL – I don’t know that the two are connected, companies and individuals can own water rights and that’s part of what the fracking game plan is about too, buying up land with water tables that can later be tapped and drained as potable water continues to become less plentiful.

choicelady : funk – I saw the Calgary mess. Wow.

choicelady : AdLib – WHAT plane problems in NYC???? You’re talking to the classic white knuckle flyer here…

funksands : Ad, nope I haven’t heard much of anything today. Just found out Calgary’s been evacuated… What plane?

choicelady : funk – while the cat’s away I do VOX.

funksands : Pretty good. No husband tonight huh? While the cats away…..

AdLib : Very cool, Funk! Did the same pop in last week! Hope your travel was safe and smooth. You hear about the planes’ close call in NY?

choicelady : funk – where were you that you got off a plane?

choicelady : funk – hanging in. I’m ‘batching it’ tonight – my husband is out of town, so being here is an extra pleasure. How are you?

funksands : Where’s Scooby when you need him??

AdLib : Funk – In Singapore, oxygen is a foodstuff, you can chew it.

choicelady : AdLib – I’m thinking the SCOTUS decision on genes not being patentable might very well screw Brabeck-letmathe ‘s little kingdom goals? He did not invent water, so it just might not be something he can control? Since they are selling our tap water for profit, how in the name of ANYTHING can this be justified?

funksands : Not bad just got off a plane a bit ago. Wanted to pop in and say hi.

funksands : Some residents of Singapore would say that oxygen is a “right” also. Stupid people.

AdLib : Having a good day tonight, Funk. And you?

AdLib : I mean, it’s not like we need nachos to live, same thing with that other foodstuff, water.

funksands : How are the remains of the day tonight?

choicelady : Hey funk! Great to see you!

AdLib : Hey Funk!

AdLib : Yep, water is a foodstuff like nachos, we buy it just because it tastes good.

funksands : Happy late evening all!

AdLib : CL – Here’s why Nestle is stealing your water: Peter Brabeck-Letmathe , Nestle CEO: “It’s a question of whether we should privatize the normal water supply for the population. And there are two different opinions on the matter. The one opinion, which I think is extreme, is represented by the NGOs, who bang on about declaring water a public right. That means that as a human being you should have a right to water. That’s an extreme solution. And the other view says that water is a foodstuff, like any other, and like any other foodstuff it should have a market value.”

AdLib : Night Murph, have a productive day tomorrow and get some sleep!

choicelady : Murph – you’re not “in the balcony” so glad to see you. Definitely get ahead of the heat. Best to you – we will talk soon again! Good night and sweet dreams!

MurphTheSurf3 : Well time for me to cash it all in. Working the soil at 6 AM- ahead of the heat of the day.

choicelady : AdLib – no – Ghiardelli makes the best chocolate! Nestle is bottling water these days. They are using MY SACRAMENTO TAP WATER!!! So yeah = fascists would not be too strong a word.

choicelady : AdLib – I know a leading Scientology minister here and like her, but she gave me a tour of their building, and while mostly is was OK, it totally freaked me out that EVERYONE on staff dressed in black AND that they were so preternaturally CALM and unemotional. She isn’t – quite the opposite. So I’m not sure what to make of it all. And thus decided to make NOTHING of it all!!!

AdLib : CL – That reminds me, saw a clip of the Nestle CEO on Colbert last night and my jaw dropped, he is a horrifying fascist! Meant to post the clip today. Hold on, let me see if I can find the quote that made me swear a boycott of Nestle in perpetuity (to my daughter’s howls, “But they make the best chocolate!”)

AdLib : CL – The good news is that the number of Scientology followers is declining. It is probably bigger in Hollywood because the ego-needy actors and entertainment folk out here are easily hooked by also becoming a superior person in a religion and being catered to. However, it’s such BS that it’s not rampant among actors, just overrepresented for its’ overall size,

choicelady : AdLib – where’d Murph go? He just vanished!

choicelady : AdLib – The rich embrace Dominionism because it’s like Social Darwinism. JP Morgan famously said, “The meek shall inherit the earth – but not the mineral rights.” THAT says it all!

AdLib : CL – I know a bit about Scientology and it isn’t hugely similar for the most part but in the end, they are both about materialism, greed and power and affirming that the elite should have it all.

choicelady : AdLib – how large is the Scientology clan in Hollywood?

choicelady : AdLib – Yes – those movements that justify your being better off than anyone else always find supporters!

choicelady : AdLib – don’t know about Scientology, but Dominionism is just Social Darwinism in new clothing. It always works for those who “have” and is supposed to motivate those who “have not” – except it doesn’t. You cannot will your way to financial independence. Life intrudes. So when you’re told you’re not “good enough” in God’s eyes, and you know how hard you’ve worked, this does not sit well. We have years and years before the reality kicks in for those who ‘have not’, but it IS kicking in!

AdLib : CL – Remember Terry Cole-Whittaker and her,”Prosperity is your divine right!”? That was a mainstreaming of Dominionism that many Yuppies embraced back in the 1980’s.

AdLib : There’s a reason Scientology attracts actors. They are treated like deities, the religion caters to them and the idea that the successful people like them achieve it because they follow the Scientology’s dogma. Same thing with Dominionism, the proposition is that the best things are for those who have wealth and power so of course they embrace that religion. Why would such awful people embrace true Christianity where people are told that the wealthy have little chance getting into Heaven and the meek shall inherit the Earth? For them, it’s all about them and the wealth and power they can gain.

choicelady : AdLib – NONE of the 1% would be Dominionist if they suddenly became poor!

choicelady : Sabreen – the dirt poor are being told by Dominionists that they aren’t ‘good enough Christians’. That may account for “walkaways” being the single biggest religious movement in America!

AdLib : Night Sabreen, have a great weekend!

Sabreen60 : Well folks it’s a little pass midnight so I wish you well and have good night.

AdLib : CL – I wonder how many of the 1% would keep their absolute belief in Dominionism if they lost all their money tomorrow?

choicelady : Murph – thanks! I keep reading this both overtly AND between the lines. It’s pitiful that Cantor, a Jew, has bought the ideology! But he has!

Sabreen60 : CL, Oh I believe you. But haven’t they looked around. The churches are filled with people who “have come to Jesus” and are as poor as church mice.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- your dominionist slant is useful in informing this discussion.

choicelady : Murph – you obviously know their rant. Disgusting they are!

AdLib : Murph – This why Boehner is frozen between a rock and a hard place. The Baggers are a minority and could be overridden on the Farm Bill but if Boehner did so by working with Pelosi and Dems, he knows he would be voted out of Speakership, which Eric Cantor is drooling over. What will he do?

choicelady : Sabreen – it lies in their Dominionist religious views that only the Elect are deserving and that gov’t handouts (their term) keep the poor from “coming to Jesus” and becoming the Elect and therefore rich. I am NOT exaggerating and NOT making this up.

choicelady : Murph – if there’s another CR, then it’s all static. Then it’s helpful to those in need. I am beyond the point where the slavering rabid TP makes ANY sense. However we can hold back the tidal wave, I will support that. Small farmers and the poor get very little now – but at least they GET it. I have reduced standards to not cutting. Winning? Hah!

MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen- the ideology is so set, so dug in that the takers have to be curbed (or so say the makers or as I prefer to call them, the fakers). Children? So what. Better that they not grow up than grow up to be parasites.

Sabreen60 : CL, yes I know. But why is that the TP is so against it. It can’t be based on race. There are millions of white folks on SNAP.

choicelady : Sabreen – for some, SNAP is ALL they get!

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- The Congressman of whom I speaking says that the TP folks have made it clear that without deeper SNAP cuts there is no support from them for a Farm Bill. In my region that is bad news for farmers here, and there are lots of them, and for the poor here, lots of them too. They are getting tired of a do nothing Congress and I think this old time Congressman is channeling them.

Sabreen60 : Murph, why? Isn’t it true that about 60% are children. I read that about 50 million people get SNAP.

choicelady : Murph – then let it fail. Funding for SNAP will remain stable. That’s all I can hope for at the moment.

choicelady : AdLib – at this point if the Farm Bill could pass and benefit Agribiz AND protect food stamps, I’d live with it. I think my standards are very low these days – we cannot challenge Agribiz with this House, so keeping the poor whole is my ONLY concern.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I live in a farming world and that is the talk going on but insiders are saying that the TP crowd will not go along with any Farm Bill unless there are deeper cuts to SNAP.

choicelady : Murph – is having this fail maybe a good thing? We who support food stamps and all the human rights groups focused on hunger are HAPPY this failed! Maybe this will turn a major corner with the GOP? Maybe Boehner WILL decide a mod-Dem coalition is a good thing? But he freaking keeps saying that he won’t bring up things without a GOP majority. That’s slitting his own throat I think?

AdLib : Murph – I would be fascinated to see momentum from Repubs on working with Dems in light of the House’s failure on the Farm Bill. If I was to bet on it though, I would bet that the Repubs know they’ve upset some of their big Agra folks and rural folks so after making this defiant stand, they will end up passing a typical Farm Bill. And problem solved…at least that’s what they’ll think but I think that’s far more likely than Repubs calling for Boehner to work with Pelosi and Dems.

Sabreen60 : Very rarely, I mean rarely, did Pelosi bring a bill to the floor unless she had the 218 votes. Boehner is the worst Speaker whom I’ve seen.

choicelady : AdLib – those are things we don’t know. I lean to PBO’s DOJ et al. being precise since I got hoist on my own petard with the Grand Jury (it was MY testimony that did not prevail, dammit). They did not, I think I recall, give blanket help to GWB, so I’m thinking MAYBE this admin is careful, not that the FISC is a patsy.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- 3 things happened with the Farm Bill. a) Last minute amendments were snuck in that Dems could not support- completely killing what little trust existed between Dems and GOP, b) The Dems walked away because of deep cuts to food stamps while the GOPers walked away because the cuts were not deep enough, c) the whips could not even get close to an actual vote count. It is all falling to pieces.

Sabreen60 : CL, Dems are glad the Farm bill failed. The point is Boehner couldn’t get his own members to vote for the bill. 62 Repubs voted no and they actually voted no because they didn’t the the $20billion cut to SNAP was enough! Boehner can’t count votes and he doesn’t have anyone in his caucus who can count votes. Time and time again he brings bills to the floor that fails.

choicelady : Sorry Murph – I did read that from you and was stunned. I’d just not thought of that.

AdLib : CL – I think the problem with the FISA court is the fear that if they denied a warrant and a terrorist attack happened, they’d be devastated and held responsible. So, it seems more likely to me that they are rubber stamping warrants than that the Obama Admin has been perfect and precise in every single request for a warrant over the last 4 years.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I just replied to Sabreen and can repeat it in response to your comment: agreed, but the Congressman to whom I am referring is an Old Time Republican and when he says that the Speaker either goes the coalition route or accepts his doom (along with the Party) this is desperation speaking. Apparently the failure of the Farm Bill was extraordinarily chilling.

choicelady : Murph – seriously?? I thought the Farm Bill demise was a non issue. I’m happy since it was to cut huge amounts from food stamps – but I’m not seeing the Big Picture politically I think?

MurphTheSurf3 : Hey choice..assumed the “howdy!”

Sabreen60 : Night glenn!

MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen- agreed, but the Congressman to whom I am referring is an Old Time Republican and when he says that the Speaker either goes the coalition route or accepts his doom (along with the Party) this is desperation speaking. Apparently the failure of the Farm Bill was extraordinarily chilling.

choicelady : Hey Murph – I did not even say hello when you arrived. HELLO!

AdLib : Murph – Would that Boehner was that kind of man but bold and transformative he isn’t.In the GOP, the tail has been and continues to wag the dog, the energized minority of Baggers dictate the path of the GOP mainly because Repubs in the House fear being primaried more than anything else and don’t want to cross the Baggers. So, do I think that Repubs will suddenly put what’s best for the country or their party ahead of their fear of losing their seat? I’d have to say, no.

Sabreen60 : Good Night KT. Take care!

choicelady : Sabreen! That made me laugh – the idea of Cantor with ‘a new one’ is icky. He’s enough of a s*** now!!!

Sabreen60 : Murph, Boehner is just awful. Pelosi’s quote was spot on: “”It’s always interesting to me when people blame other people for their own failures,” Pelosi said. “It’s silly, it’s sad, it’s juvenile, it’s unprofessional, it’s amateur hour.” I think she was also talking about Cantor who took to the floor and tried to blame Dems for the failure of the Farm bill. Hoyer torn Cantor a new one of that little bit of nonsense.

choicelady : Good night KT – see you on the Music Thread tomorrow!

choicelady : AdLib – no barrier to warrants means one of two things only – they are pushovers or the cases are righteous. I worked with the US Attorneys on these sorts of things, testified before Grand Juries of whom the same is said (they’d indict a ham sandwich) only to have ONE of our cases tossed. The others – over a 10 year period – were all brought and WON. We did not go to Grand Jury without significant evidence. So was the court wrong to give us the indictments against Operation Rescue or were WE careful enough to deserve the indictments? Same exact thing.

AdLib : Night KT, looking forward to the Music thread!

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- this House Member apparently said that there are enough GOP who realize that the party is walking off a cliff that there could be what Parliamentary Systems call a coalition government in the House. Boehner would emerge as a transformative leader.

KillgoreTrout : Well folks, I think I’ll call it quits for now, and start on the music thread.

AdLib : Murph – Yep, started out Vox over Boehner. I don’t think Boehner would ever consider working with Pelosi, he would lose his leadership in a heartbeat. All Boehner has or wants is hanging on as Speaker, even if that means being seen as the weakest and worst Speaker in American History.

KillgoreTrout : Sweet dreams glenn.

AdLib : Night glenn! Have a great weekend!

choicelady : glenn- that comment about your husband touches my heart. Since I almost lost mine, and since he was part of the Yemen Triangle, yeah – good memories matter. I’m sorry you husband is gone, and I hope those memories keep his love and your life together vivid and real for you! You are in my heart – I feel the ache and loss and hope the conversation and memory of your time with him over the Yemen suitcase fiasco helps a bit? HUGS to you!

KillgoreTrout : HA! Not at this point in time!

glenn : G’night.

glenn : KT–Could be. For sure, we couldn’t be Virgo, though.

MurphTheSurf3 : Did you discuss Boehner? I had a tidbit to toss in. A member of the GOP caucus from my area told a group of well placed but generally sensible Republican supporters that Boehner has to choices: a) fashion the speakership as Speaker of the Whole House and make an alliance with Nancy Pelosi to get a legislative agenda done (with the understanding that he stays as speaker with Nancy as a shadow Speaker until 2014) and rescues his legacy OR he continues to lurch along until he gets rejected by his own caucus. He fears that the second is the likely reality and someone with real Tea Party credentials will get chosen.

AdLib : CL – Not denying warrants is just that, not denying warrants. It can’t be said that the courts are providing any barrier to warrants.

glenn : CL–There you go! I love it!

KillgoreTrout : Was that an astrological joke?

choicelady : glenn – you and I. The Yemeni Twins!

AdLib : Murph – So true though putting in a safety valve that would allow the people to keep their leaders in check from abusing their power…is going to be a hard sell to those leaders who want to use their power as prolifically as they choose.

glenn : Alright, folks. Time for me to call it a night. I’ll be thinking about my husband and the good times we had before he passed away. I’m sure I’ll “see” you all over the weekend. Take care, and good night.

choicelady : AdLib – I have heard that before. Does that mean that the court is a patsy or that the cases presented are solid? Not denying warrants is not evidence of either thing.

glenn : CL–See how easy it is to begin a conspiracy theory?

AdLib : With all respect CL, that’s not the case: ” Despite Obama’s claim, FISA court rarely much of a check Records show that the court meant to oversee the government hasn’t denied an application in almost four years ” «link»

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…thus my belief that we need a safety valve

KillgoreTrout : I think they were stealing panties for their future virgins.

choicelady : glenn – I suspect as a married woman, you were NOT high on their ’72 virgins’ list… Who knows how and why these things happen? I am too old to be the female Jason Bourne…

glenn : KT–true dat!

KillgoreTrout : That’s hard to say glenn.

glenn : KT–Did they think I was IN the suitcase?

AdLib : Murph – The moment info is revealed that directly endangers Americans anywhere, it crosses the line. We’ve seen China and other oppressive governments use the “indirect harm” excuse and that’s what shouldn’t be used in the US, we shouldn’t say that because someone could be harmed by NSA spying being publicized, that’s traitorous. However, if Snowden provided any info that directly endangers Americans, he would be a traitor in my eyes.

choicelady : glenn – hard to know, isn’t it? Crank up the Twilight Zone theme…

choicelady : AdLib – leaking about national security issues is why I refuse to give the name, sex, identity (and I know it) and cell phone of the “reporter” who called me!!!! I won’t “out” this person as the Bushies did Valerie Plame! But it’s never a good idea to go rogue. I totally agree with you – there has to be a mechanism for that.

KillgoreTrout : glenn, you just never know about those waiting to meet their 72 virgins. Harem shopping?

glenn : CL–Does it mean I passed or failed the test if I got my suitcase back? What do you think?

choicelady : glenn – you were obviously a test case with your test suitcase! Little did you know…

glenn : KT–It could also be just a simple “panty raid.”

choicelady : glenn – well, dear friend, the Yemenis got YOUR suitcase. They did not get mine! But we’d have to trace it back to the people in Saudi and Bilbao – they put the labels on! Woo woo – deep conspiracy!

choicelady : AdLib – over the end of the Bush regimet and beginning of the PBO adminstration, the courts INSISTED on 4th Amendment rights. Those ARE being honored – no peeking without due reason. NONE of us is subjected to that anymore. That said – I’m FAR more concerned about private contractors such as Booz Allen using our info badly! They don’t seem to think they have Constitutional obligations. That is the REAL issue here – getting RID of private contractors so that Constitutional issues remain within the purview of the gov’t. THAT is why the Libertarians HATE these things – they want to have NO government oversight of war, of spying, of anything and leave it entirely to the mercenaries and private snoops. THAT is why this conversation must occur – Snowden is a Libertarian as is GG and that is dangerous.

glenn : KT–good one!

AdLib : CL – Here is one story of a whistleblower being attacked by the Obama Admin that was on 60 Minutes: “Tom Drake, a former NSA senior executive indicted last year for espionage after leaking to the media allegations that the nation’s largest intelligence organization had committed fraud, waste and abuse will appear in his first television interview. Scott Pelley reports.” Here’s the link to the segment: «link»

glenn : CL–This was way before the Obama era. This was in the 80’s when we were in Saudi.

KillgoreTrout : Ah yes, The Cous Cous Conspiracy!

glenn : CL–If we were conspiracy minded, we might say that the Yemens were stealing American suitcases for nefarious reasons.

AdLib : CL – Heh! “Yemen Aware”, you might have coined a new phrase!

choicelady : glenn – OMG – another Yemen story!!! Well if you and I are not both on the “list” then things have changed. Were this pre Obama, I’m sure we’d be seeing the Men in Black!

KillgoreTrout : Ha CL. No, he works for an oil company over there.

AdLib : glenn – What I would like to see is a reaffirmation of the 4th Amendment, beginning with the repeal of the Patriot Act then enshrining our rights to privacy…which apparently, having an amendment doing so isn’t sufficient for that. I would support our government being able to spy when there is probable cause but doing anything other is a violation of the 4th.

choicelady : AdLib – that ‘fact’ about thousands of warrants and FISC being a ‘rubber stamp’ is not factual. They are now – thanks to courts – very careful.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I am sure you are correct which says to me that it is a good idea.

choicelady : glenn – OMG – wonder where your bags are??????

choicelady : AdLib – I’m sure if they wanted to they could look, but after all the court challenges and policy changes THEY NEED WARRANTS to look at the content of anyone’s email etc. It might be stored. It cannot be peeked at without a clear and convincing reason that is sufficient to get a warrant.

glenn : CL–To continue..After about six months, the airlines actually delivered my suitcase to my house. It had been routed through Yemen, for some reason. Couldn’t believe they had found it! The “moral” of the story for my husband and me was that we never used separate suitcases again. We always packed both our clothes in each suitcase, so one of us would not end up without clothes. Glenn’s travel tip for the night!

AdLib : Murph – My guess would be that no President or Congress wants independent power of oversight so they’d never suggest a permanent and independent Inspector General.

KillgoreTrout : Maybe I should say a Frightened New World.

choicelady : KT – it’s your BROTHER who is the issue, KT. If his phone is not “hot” there is no problem even if he ran that pizza place in Yemen.

KillgoreTrout : I do see this NSA thing as another trade off in our Social Compact. There has to be some sort of trade off here. It’s a brave new world.

AdLib : KT – The Obama Admin has gone to a FISA court for tens of thousands of warrants…and not one has been denied. It is a rubber stamp.

glenn : Hey CL–That’s funny about your Yemen “connection”. My husband and I had the same thing happen to us. We left Saudi bound for Miami, but had a layover in Denmark, but had checked our luggage all the way to Miami. (Only had carryons for Denmark.) When we got to Miami, my husband’s bags had shown up–mine were nowhere to be found. After a couple of weeks, the airline had me fill out a claim form, and they paid me for my luggage; only about $200 but it was something, and I did get to go out and buy new clothes!

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…the field is generally beyond my pay grade but I also buy into the notion that one does not want to approve of this kind of thing. Let’s look at Manning and wikileaks….sev eral important pieces of data were revealed by him…such as U.S. gunships firing on groups of men in Iraq labeled as hostile when that was not at all certain…but he also revealed stuff that placed operators in harms way.

AdLib : CL – Here’s the quote from my article: ” in 2011, The New Yorker‘s Jane Mayer spoke to former NSA crypto-mathemati cian Bill Binney, who “believes that the agency now stores copies of all e-mails transmitted in America, in case the government wants to retrieve the details later.” He thinks the NSA wants all emails to be searchable, the same way we search with Google. “The agency reportedly has the capacity to intercept and download, every six hours, electronic communications equivalent to the contents of the Library of Congress,” Mayer said. As Mark Rumold, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, told The Atlantic Wire last night, “This is confirmation of what we’ve long feared, that the NSA has been tracking the calling patterns of the entire country.” And here’s the link to the NYT article: «link»

KillgoreTrout : CL, yeah, you’re probably right. I do think of the possibility though. Oman is actually a pretty progressive country, and not known for terrorist activity.

Sabreen60 : I believe the President said if we can’t trust the Executive Branch, the Legislative Branch or the Judicial Branch then we have a problem. I tend to agree. No country that has the capability is going to shut down their intel sources. So we better decide how we want it done. He also said, you cannot have 100% privacy and 100% security. There’s got to be a trade off. I think he used the example of getting stopped at check points by cops looking for drunk drivers. That’s giving up some privacy. I don’t understand what I see as the lack of common sense from “progressives” who say shut it down. BBL

choicelady : KT – that is exactly what you do NOT need to fear! No one other than KNOWN PHONES of KNOWN terrorists are being reviewed. Your calls go to your brother (who, I am supposing, is NOT a known terrorist???) so it won’t even be a blip. Not to worry!

AdLib : Murph – I’m open to that possibility though I remain cautious about being too quick to buy into such propositions. I know a bit about programming and software, I have a general idea (probably not as detailed as your contacts) of how such monitoring could work and I really don’t see methods as being so unpredictable that if a government wanted to sit down and project what they could be, they couldn’t figure it out on their own. I mean, there are a limited amount of possibilities.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- I agree. Congressional oversight has not been what it should be and these courts which are generally GOP and former prosecutors do not have many on them say “slow down, is this constitutional, is this American?”

choicelady : AdLib – We just thought it was funny! Awfully glad we could retrieve the bags in LA though – never would have seen our stuff again I suspect!

KillgoreTrout : I have a brother that works and lives in Oman. I sometimes worry that my communications with him might someday get me on a no fly list!

choicelady : AdLib – what ‘whistleblowers ‘ have been harmed by this adminstration? I keep hearing about aggressive prosecution. I’ve seen nothing other than the Wiki fiasco.

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…not a board…an Office of the Independent Inspector General…career jurist/investiga tor nominated by the President with the Senate consenting overseen by the DC Appeals Court and utilizing resources from the Executive like the FBI…housed like the CBO in the Legislative Branch.

choicelady : glenn – with this Congress, or at least House, we will have nothing good come of anything.

AdLib : CL – That is pretty scary! I would have been a bit freaked out if that happened to me!

KillgoreTrout : Murph, I have nothing to hide, but I still don’t like the sound of all this. It’s not liberty.

choicelady : AdLib – my fixation on Yemen is because when we came back from Spain, we left from Bilbao to Madrid, Madrid to LA, LA to Sacramento. Only after we’d checked bags to Sacramento and were inside Bilbao security did we realize we had a routing for the LA-Sacramento that was WRONG. We had to claim the bags in LA for customs, so we knew we could fix it. When we did that the woman sending them from LA to Sacramento told us they’d been destined for Yemen!!!! THAT has made me “Yemen aware” as nothing else could! I still have the receipt as a souvenir – but this all has loomed large because of our experience!!

glenn : Murph–How would that board be created? Who gets to appoint the members? How would you compose a board that would be acceptable to both sides?

KillgoreTrout : Good and frustrating point glenn. It seems a lot of legalities have been thrown out the window.

AdLib : CL – Well…I wouldn’t begin putting a lot of credibility in the Chinese press now so their saying Snowden has been a lot of help could be just as much aimed propaganda as much of what they put out. Again, not saying Snowden isn’t a traitor but we have no proof yet, I think it’s far too early to buy into his being a traitor. We can always conclude that after the facts. My concern is that this scenario is exactly what the government would do to an innocent man as well, as they have done with legit whistleblowers. Just cautioning against leaping too quickly on rumors.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT…the Surveillance Court (FISA) has apparently been granting warrants by class of communication rather than on a case by case basis. So, technically approved.

glenn : KT–Do you think if we repeal the Patriot Act, it will actually “put the genie back in the bottle?” Who is going to make sure that it is done? Murph’s idea sounds good, but with this Congress, I can’t see how anyone could compose a board that would be acceptable to both sides.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…Independen t Inspector General….and yet that idea which emerged from my uninformed head has not been offered by any of the”leaders”. How come? With such an office in place (and the remaining possibility of going directly to members of Congress who have made it clear they have concerns) the excuse that there was no place to go would be pretty much off the table….so where is the creativity?

KillgoreTrout : Is all this being done without warrants? I would think so, considering the scope.

choicelady : AdLib – they are capturing ROUTING info, not content. If your skype did not go to the Yemen Pizza shop, it is not being examined.

AdLib : CL – But the problem is that they are not just capturing metadata, they are capturing our emails, texts, Skypes, on and on. It’s not just metadata of phone calls the spying is far wider than that.

choicelady : AdLib – the NSA is NOT examining origins of the numbers or the content at all of the conversations. All I have to go on is the Chinese reports that he gave them security info. THAT is horribly scary because they ARE attacking our internet resources. We knew that before Snowden, and now the tactics of stopping them THEY SAY are in their possession from him.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I don’t have the specifics but people I know who do say that the inside/outside the U.S. distinction is artificial and that the nature of the work, and the routes used as laid out in the documents the Guardian has released were highly privilege…the methodology and structure is actually more important than what was specifically uncovered…so say they.

KillgoreTrout : glenn, you can definitely say that again. They are as subtle as bulls in a china shop.

AdLib : Murph – Agreed, there does need to be some protected path for people to take when they discover something very wrong going on in our government, without being put at risk on being a political prisoner and jailed for trying to expose governmental wrongdoing. I like the idea of an Independent Inspector General to provide that safeguard.

KillgoreTrout : I think we need to repeal the Patriot Act. That is the crux of the problem here, I think. I’m not sure FISA has it covered.

choicelady : AdLib – the incident I’ve discussed ad nauseum before – 2003 phone call about a totally internal email discussion my Board had about the FBI demanding imams’ sermons before they were given. The ‘reporter’ knew everything we’d discussed and demanded the contact info for all my Board members which I refused to give over. From that point on…it was hairy with the FBI for the next year.

glenn : KT–Once again, it’s a subtle thing–the difference between arrogance and self-confidence. And we all know sublety is not the goptp’s strong point.

AdLib : Murph – I’m only thinking about the issue of the holistic spying in the US, on phone records and emails for example, since that is all I feel confident that Snowden has exposed. In that respect, I don’t see any national security issue, again, this has been reported on since 2005 so it is not really a revelation. If however, as CL suggests, Snowden has supplied China with info about how the US tries to defend against their cyber crimes, then I would agree. But is is confirmed that he’s done so?

choicelady : AdLib – I agree that Snowden is innocent until proven guilty, but the Chinese press SAID he’d given them huge help. That’s a pretty damning smoking gun…

KillgoreTrout : glenn, I would call it, in Obama’s case, self confident. I guess there is a fine line between arrogance and self confidence.

choicelady : AdLib – it’s like walking into a library and looking for A book among the millions there. None of them are opened or looked at – only the ones you want. I have no problem with my phone NUMBER being part of the pool, and having been tracked with NSA ‘word search’ crap, and then hacked, I think the difference for me is palpable. NO ONE will check out my number if I did not order Pizza from an Al Q’aeda restaurant in Yemen. So being part of the metadata is NOT an intrusion. Been there. Know the freaking difference! After the supposed reporter contacted me AND I refused that person any information at all I had quite a number of,ummm, encounters shall we say, with the FBI. I was very steadfast through it all – but it was freaking scary. My phone number in the data pool? Not a problem.

AdLib : CL – If that’s the case, that would indeed be treasonous but the problem is that we don’t know any details about what Snowden might have provided to China and it is too early IMO to buy into accusations. I’m just waiting to get solid info before stampeding down the path that many in power want us to stampede down.

KillgoreTrout : It is rather remarkable that Obama mostly takes all the attacks in stride. That takes genuine self confidence.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- I don’t know any details but I think my friend knows of what she is speaking. And her take seems to mirrow what I am more generally reading BUT I think the essential thing is that U.S. (and every other nation I can think of) cannot be seen as tolerating leaking like this. I think I addressed the one legitimate issue which Snowden, Manning cases raise…where does someone go who thinks terrible things are being done when they do not trust the interior lines of authority….It is why I want a truly independent Office of the Inspector General that exists outside of every other department.

glenn : KT–I’ve never understood that one, either. Anyone who runs for any public office is a tad arrogant, IMO. You have to have some arrogance to believe that you can lead, don’t you think?

KillgoreTrout : glenn, I’m hoping for a book. Memoirs.

choicelady : Sabreen – yes. It’s fascinating to see a president take this all very seriously! This president is a man among men! (People…)

glenn : KT–I’m not trying to wish the time away,but I do think it’s going to be interesting to hear what President Obama has to say once he’s out of office! Think he’ll “let it all out”?

Sabreen60 : Pres. Obama met with Civil Liberties folk today. I think The Obama Diary has pictures and comments.

choicelady : glenn – Interesting reflection on the President’s “going Bulworth”. «link»

AdLib : CL – I posted a link in my article last week which explained that’s not the case, calls have indeed been tapped on Americans and their emails have been captured. The story about just our metadata being captured has been disproven. That’s a big problem IMO.

KillgoreTrout : glenn the GOP has all but said he is “uppity,” but they are smart enough to know that that particular word, in relation to a black man is NOT PC. They settle for “arrogant.”

AdLib : Hey Sabreen!

glenn : KT–oh, President Obama definitely gets it. I love to hear the pubs whine when he does call them to task!

AdLib : Murph – I don’t know…what methodology? Scooping up all phone records and emails, I don’t see much of a method aside from holistic spying. Of course, there are software programs they use as a first level screening, of emails and phone numbers and calls, that’s well known. I’m just having a little difficulty on the general objections which don’t reflect specific details.

Sabreen60 : CL, You have a stronger stomach than I. Too much knowledge re Greenwald to ever want to hear anything he has to say.

KillgoreTrout : I love to see Obama’s little sly smile from time to time, especially when he is talking about the GOP. He gets it, and I think that helps him keep sane and steady. He considers the sources.

choicelady : AdLib – I understand that Snowden had info on our counter-tactics to cyber terrorist actions FROM China. So now they know how we’re blocking and avoiding their tactics. So they will change course – and we will have to start over again.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen…hi…. I am no fan of Greenwald who is an expert at using others to grind his ax.

glenn : Sabreen–Persona lly, I’d LOVE to see some vindictiveness on President Obama’s part. That man has had to put up with more hate, lies, and vindictiveness than any other president in my memory. And he still seems to be handling it with grace and aplomb!

choicelady : Sabreen – I saw GG on Chris Hayes – and I wanted Chris to ask him how much GG had set Snowden up?

AdLib : CL – What data has he given the Chinese that compromises our national security? I wouldn’t discount his being bribed to betray the US but before going there, I’d need to know details.

KillgoreTrout : Hey Sabreen, I hope all is well.

choicelady : glenn – the ultras on both side want to be martyrs but both side have no ‘boots on the ground’ and do nothing but whine. I keep telling one trust fund radical I met that she has nothing to fear from this administration. She has risked nothing, done nothing, just yammers – and the government just IS NOT that into her. It really pisses her off to think she might not get to be a martyr because she DOES NOTHING.

Sabreen60 : Hey CL et al. I’m a little tired and just stopped by for a little while. I hope everyone is feeling ok. I understand the twerp Greenwald said Obama is vindictive. I expected him to start crying when Snowden was charged.

AdLib : glenn – Yep, it has reached such a point of absurdity that the GOP can’t be seen by reasonable people as anything other than a perverse parody of its former self. Attacking Obama as traitorous for appointing judges, having opinions and supporting bills? Huh? Haven’t they disqualified themselves by now for all but the mindless followers? I mean, who is convinced to change their mind to support Repub opinions at this point? Anyone? I don’t think so.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, for them, insanity helps. I think the new DSM V should include a treatment suggestion for Obama Derangement Syndrome. I think it’s a real mental illness.

glenn : Hi Sabreen. How are you?

glenn : Murph–I know, once again, those poor persecuted right wingers.

choicelady : Murph – I LOVE Kermit, and yes, McC. is NO Kermit the Frog!

choicelady : KT – as someone noted, if our calls WERE being monitored, there’s be NO unemployment.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- nor is Mc as intelligent as that little green sweetie.

choicelady : Sabreen! How are you?

KillgoreTrout : I believe Obama when he says the NSA is not listening to our calls and reading our e-mails. There are over 300 million Americans, and I don’t think it is even technologicly possible. possible.

choicelady : Murph – McConnell is not nearly good enough to be Kermit.

choicelady : AdLib – I seriously do not feel betrayed by the NSA data dump since no one will EVER look at the content or even the facts of my calls. Americans calling OUT to other Americans or overseas to friends and family are NOT under scrutiny. Calls headed to certain KNOWN phones will pop up – and they all originate OUTSIDE the US. The data are not about us – they are business routing numbers. Obviously the NSA can’t get the records for the terrorists’ phones, but they CAN see the traffic TO those phones. That and ONLY that is being reviewed. Then new warrants have to be obtained to research those numbers. So unlike Bush and the NSA hacking of my organization’s email conversation – reported TO me that afternoon by someone claiming to be a reporter (who wasn’t) this ‘dump’ is not targeting any of us individually, not listening in, not doing ANYTHING to us to violate our privacy.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…no hurry…after all I was two months late.

AdLib : KT – I have to imagine that after spewing mindless hatred for 3-4 years and not gaining any ground…in fact, losing it (the Bagger caucus in The House has had to disband from lack of members), some people have got to just burn out and fall away. How can you keep it up endlessly with no light at the end of the tunnel (and Obama winning re-election)?

Sabreen60 : Hello good folks!

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn, CL..I watched the entire McConnell, aka Kermit, speech at AEI today- and he made the case that Obama had “inspired” a conspiracy that “certainly” involved White House Staff as part of his “persecution” and “alienation” of those who oppose him. Chicken shit innuendo. What a nasty little creature he is.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I know someone in security and she says that this is a matter of exposing methodology, exposing mechanism by which the methods are applied, and even revealing what is not looked at. Further, the principal of the thing is that when you are doing this kind of work- not opening those doors is basic to the contract.

AdLib : Murph – Yes I did get your email and will respond shortly. With Summer vacation and my daughter out, as well as a little traveling, not to mention the waterboarding, I’ve got a bit of catching up to do!

glenn : CL–Wasn’t that great? That’s why he had to start all that nonsense about “suppressing free speech”. He wanted to drown out the message of the IRS scandal being over. With his free speech, of course!

choicelady : AdLib – he took not just the NSA data but other, far more sensitive stuff I understand. He’s given it to China. They are committing cyberterrorism, and he found stuff showing how the US is combating it. THAT, not the NSA data, is dangerous.

AdLib : CL – Snowden’s not a hero IMHO but I still am missing an answer to my question…how does his exposing of what has been previously reported and spying on the American people, harm the American people? Are we supposed to believe that foreign countries and terrorists had no inkling that the government might be spying on them? I really don’t get the national security howls, this was far more about exposing a betrayal of the American people.

choicelady : glenn – McConnell to day had to admit that PBO had NOTHING to do with the IRS issue. So what he says is pretty irrelevant.

glenn : AdLib–people on the far right can’t blather on and on. Haven’t you heard McConnell say that President Obama and the left are trying to suppress the speech of those poor, downtrodden, voiceless people on the right?

choicelady : Murph – it doesn’t hurt that I can clean fish either…

choicelady : AdLib – it was a marvelous moment. And it was gained with gentle humor. That is how Murph handled the Akins defectors, too. It is critical that we let people know that we may not agree, but we value their humanity. Maybe the “Lysistrata Ladies” will never vote for anyone OTHER than Claire – but they will never discount Murph’s ideas again.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I do find a reasonable one occasionally. It’s rare, but when I do find one that wants discourse instead of name calling and spewing hate, it makes me feel better.

AdLib : CL – Having someone on the far right actually listen, as sad as it is to say, a victory. Most of these people blather like re-runs of Rush’s show that day, not a hint of reason or actual thought. They open their ears and minds only for their chosen ideologues than lock them shut. On the other hand, realistically, they only represent a minority of the voting public so if we can win over the others, we can keep winning.

glenn : CL–don’t hold back. Tell us how you really feel about Snowden.

choicelady : Murph! LOL!!! Calling collect? That would be Chootz-pah as Michelle Bachmann would say!!!

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- good to see you back, did you get my long overdue e-mail last week? Snowden Travel Agency-limited routing. Basic requirement-no U.S. extradition treaties.

KillgoreTrout : I guess he was also thinking about Russia. I found that to be quite funny, since he has said he doesn’t want to live in a country that spies on it’s citizens. Ideology can sometimes be a dangerous thing.

choicelady : Murph – fine. Let him go. But he’s a narcissistic SOB without redeeming political qualities. He will never be a hero to me.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- kind hearted aye? Well, he was calling collect. A bridge too far.

choicelady : AdLib – I honestly think those who want to end the hate are the majority. We have to find ways to make that happen.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- An iceland millionaire associated with wikileaks has a plane ready in China to get him out of there…and Iceland is maverick enough to take him.

AdLib : Hey Murph! Personally, I’m investing in the Snowden Travel Agency.

glenn : CL and AdLib–good-hear ted, polite hooligans–who could ask for more?

AdLib : CL – Great points and yes, teachable moments indeed but only for those who want to learn.

choicelady : Murph! Well, it’s logical you’d be the person he’d turn to. I was just extolling your virtues as a kind hearted man. Of COURSE he’d turn to you.

AdLib : glenn – We’re famous for our polite hooligans at The Planet!

choicelady : sorry – wrong key – he listened to me on a minor but significant political/religi ous issue. We really talked after that, and we will NEVER agree, but we came to be comfortable and caring with each other after that. A step. Just one. But a step.

KillgoreTrout : What’s up Murph? I hear he’s now going to Iceland.

AdLib : I would hope so, CL but I don’t know. SO many Repubs express racism, whether plainly or not. Are most Repubs against slavery? In theory, probably but would most Reubs support an immigration bill with a guest worker provision that restricts immigrants to being virtual slaves? I’d guess they would.

KillgoreTrout : CL, there are definitely shared traits among these RWer. They believe that America is doomed, under Obama, they worship their assault weapons, and they are racist. Oh yeah, intellectually bankrupt and willfully ignorant.

choicelady : All – you KNOW my history and my living under siege from the religious right. And yet – and yet – I have made a kind of, well, not friendship but affable relationship with one of the MOST Dominionist people in America. It’s too long a story, but we wound up kind of OK with each other. And he listened to me and AGREED with me on a minor but p

MurphTheSurf3 : Hi….sorry I am late but Snowden keeps calling looking for a place to hide….

AdLib : CL – I agree, I do think that this one-note, “HATE!!!” platform of the GOP has got to be running its course by now and if we can just nudge moderate Repubs towards Dem candidates, we could re-take the House, hold the Senate then show the nation what a responsible party can do with government.

choicelady : glenn – Even the hooligans have good hearts…

choicelady : KT – sometimes you just have to cut your losses. But we have to be open as well. The Paula Deene flap is a case in point. She is of the ‘tradition’ that Lillian Smith wrote about of white people in the South. But Deene supported Obama! SHE is a ‘teachable moment’. If we could get her and her followers to understand that making these mistakes is wrong and UNNECESSARY, we might move them as MTS moved the “Lysistrata” ladies of MO. Sometimes it just takes kindness. We are capable of that. So long, of course, as the people we’re talking to aren’t armed…

glenn : CL and AdLib–I sure hope most people are getting tired of all the hate and negativity. I know I sure am. That’s truly why I love coming here to the Planet. Even if people disagree with me, they treat me with respect. Even the hooligans!

glenn : AdLib–I was encouraged that Reince Preibus actually called out a republican who went on a misogynist, racist rant against a female republican running for office. Yes, all three were republicans!

choicelady : glenn – I don’t think so with most people. Not ALL of course, but most. Women in particular get it – they know slavery if only in sexual servitude. I think the GOP anger against anyone they perceive to be ‘furrin’ is just growing tired with LOTS of people.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I try to do that every day, by commenting on discussion boards. I try to remain civil and reason with people. Sometimes it’s impossible to be kind to some of them. The haters and bigots.

glenn : CL–doesn’t it depend on who is being enslaved?

AdLib : CL – It just seems to me that the angry, racist Bagger way has got to be feeling annoying to people on the Right by now, at least some. It is so redundant, ignorant and obvious now. People forget, they used to hide their prejudices by claiming to be for less government and debt reduction…now they just come right out and spew hatred. Doesn’t that get old after 3 years or so?

choicelady : AdLib – even most conservatives are REALLY against slavery!

glenn : KT–Nah–he had to prove he had a pair.

choicelady : All – I think we are on the cusp of change. I think if we well educated and thoughtful people will be compassionate to the others (presuming they are unarmed and willing) we can make change even in the trailer parks and back woods. Just LOOK at what MTS accomplishes every day in his town! Yeah – you know my history and how uptight and defensive I am about the religious right – and even now and then I have to meet them half way on come compassionate ground. It matters – and it starts with us because, well, we can.

KillgoreTrout : glenn, did he weep?

KillgoreTrout : ! Good one CL.

AdLib : CL – How can you pass a pro-slavery immigration bill in the 21st Century? The Baggers are taking up that challenge!

glenn : KT–Just last week, I saw one that said, “Boehner try growen a pair”.

choicelady : KT- that Moran.

choicelady : AdLib – I am a great fan of Antsy McClain and his Trailerpark Troubadours. They sing wonderful songs about, well, white trash. It’s actually very honorable and caring stuff. And his fans are highly diverse – except the last concert here in our area where one guy showed up with a T shirt with a Bushmaster gun on it that said “Sure. Come take it”. What was fascinating to me is that NO ONE talked with him the whole night. He represented the ‘old way’. Antsy represents inclusiveness and kindness and celebration of all people. No one in that room would have any truck with this GOPer.

glenn : CL–I just don’t get it. I know the right wing media has whipped them up into a frenzy regarding the black man in “their” WH, but what is he doing that is so different from any other president? Besides being president while black, I mean.

KillgoreTrout : glenn, I once saw a TPer sign that read “I Support Home Scholling.” I kid you not.

KillgoreTrout : That’s the word CL. Batshit crazy!

choicelady : AdLib – I think what we’ve seen is that people are so scared of the Black man in the White House that they will stand with the GOP against their own best interests. It’s pitiful.

glenn : Ad–to paraphrase a t/p sign: “Keep your gubmint hands off my food stamps?”

AdLib : CL – But aren’t the majority of the Repub’s base closer to those in poverty than those in the top 1%? And those brainwashed folk will vote for and support Repubs…voting to cut their own meager benefits!

choicelady : Everyone – revoting to kill ACA…what IS that thing about doing the same thing over and over expecting different outcomes? Oh yeah – insanity.

KillgoreTrout : The GOP wants cuts to social programs while they have just signed a contract with Boeing for 99 Osprey tilt rotor aircraft, to the tune of 3.5 BILLION.

glenn : KT–There is no such thing as a “hint” in the goptp world reality. Subtlety is definitely not their strong suit.

choicelady : AdLib – the idea that immigrants are people who need to be in control of their own lives is simply anathema to the Right. So yeah – slavery and barbed wire. The two beloved icons of the GOP.

AdLib : glenn – You got it, the 38th vote to repeal the ACA? I’ve lost count.

KillgoreTrout : That would make #38, I believe. You’d think the GOP would take a hint, by now.

choicelady : AdLib – someone pointed out on Twitter that the slavering hate of the poor finally outstripped servile lapdogging of the rich industrial agricultural interests. The GOP want MORE cuts to food supports for those in need – and sacrificed farm subsidies to do it.

glenn : KT–Love it. I find a lot of them on HP, too.

AdLib : CL – Agreed, I think all we’ll see go up in the House for a vote is the equivalent of a Latino slavery proposal and a pork barrel border spending bill.

glenn : AdLib–another vote to repeal Obamacare?

KillgoreTrout : glenn, doing well. I’ve been mostly arguing with morons on Yahoo.

AdLib : Yep, the Farm Bill had been amended into a savage attack on the poor (how is this possible to continue in America where more and more are falling into poverty???) so yes, good that it failed and the question to the Repubs and Boehner especially is, “Now what, Einstein?”

choicelady : AdLib – I think Hooligan is around January as a zodiac sign…

glenn : KT–going well–how about you? What shenagins have you been up to?

KillgoreTrout : Ad, only in the Irish astrology charts!

choicelady : AdLib – Nope. I don’t think Boehner has the cojones to do anything dramatic or good.

KillgoreTrout : Some are born and some are self styled! How goes it glenn?

choicelady : KT – I KNOW you’re a born hooligan!

AdLib : Doesn’t Hooligan come after Capricorn?

glenn : KT–So hooligans are born, not made?

KillgoreTrout : As long as I’m not a born again hooligan!

AdLib : CL – Do you think Boehner will violate the Hastert Rule and bring a holistic immigration bill to a vote?

glenn : ChoiceLady–I agree that the defeat of the farm bill was good, and I really thought it was ironic that r/tp’s wanted to blame the defeat on the Dems.

KillgoreTrout : Hey CL. I’m a born hooligan!

AdLib : CL – And I missed fellow Voxers!

choicelady : KT – fine thing YOU calling the rest of us hooligans! Pot meet kettle… LOL!! How are you?

AdLib : glenn – With the Farm Bill, it was actually just nay votes but with immigration, they will vote for insulting and prejudiced bills while not bringing a reasonable bill to a vote.

choicelady : glenn – the farm bill defeat was GOOD – stopped cuts to food stamps. The immigration bill probable will go down to defeat, too, but that will be a major loss.

KillgoreTrout : HA! Hey AD and the rest of you Planet hooligans!

glenn : Hey KT–A house with a Boehner and little teapot?

choicelady : Hi glenn and all – I’m pretty OK. Tired from dealing with bureaucrats, but otherwise fine. AdLib – it was my pleasure to help out! We missed you though!

AdLib : Hey KT! A Boehner pill???

glenn : Ad–So, IOW, they’re going to do the same thing with immigration that they did with the farm bill, right?

AdLib : Hey CL! Thank you SOOO much for filling in for me over the last few weeks!

KillgoreTrout : A House with a Boehner?

AdLib : Glenn, as hard to believe as it is, I think the Baggers in The House are so narrow minded (and it’s not surprising that they learn nothing from experience) that I think they will intentionally kill it by trying to do it piecemeal and add unacceptable amendments. Then they can say they “tried” while blocking it. And who will the Latinos support in 2016? It’s unbelievable.

glenn : Hey Choice Lady–how are you?

choicelady : Hi AND another Boehner! How is everyone tonight?

glenn : Good on ‘ya. Or, since I live in GA, I should say, “good on ya’all.”

glenn : So, Ad, what’s your “take” on the immigration bill? Think it will even get a vote in the House?

AdLib : We booked the couples waterboarding, it was quite hydrating.

glenn : How did your “water torture” go last week?

glenn : Ad–Doing well also.

glenn : O.K. The House pulls another Boehner!

AdLib : Hey glenn! Doing well, and you?

AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” or “The House pulls another Boehner” when you arrive!

glenn : ‘Evening, AdLib, how are you?

AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!