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- SueInCa : Thanks to me for what Adlib? is chat still going?
- kesmarn : Seriously, folks, so sorry I missed the chat. My relief nurse was late showing up tonight, so I got home REALLY late. (Meant to say "and showered", not "of showered", BTW!) I skimmed through the chat and it sounds as though the finer points are getting firmed up. I just signed up for Skype about 2 weeks ago, but haven't had a chance to use it yet. Sounds as though we might go that route next time, no? Till our next communication, I'll sign off...Good night -- or rather --good morning, all!
- kesmarn : Hi Everyone! It's 2:50 a.m. in Ohio and I'm FINALLY home from work as showered....hell looooo?....sigh. ..guess everyone's asleep...
- AdLib : Night everyone, rest well in your shells!
- AdLib : Patsy - Thanks to you, Choicelady, Jenuwin (hiding behind the couch!) and Sue. We're refining this concept into a pragmatic and effective piece. Good work all!
- PatsyT : I'll say good night
- PatsyT : My 11 old has skype - she is going to run the world !
- PatsyT : Well thanks again for all the amazing work on this... missed the others but Hi to them if they are reading this.
- AdLib : BTW, you do need to sign up for an account at Skype so you can have an account people can call.
- AdLib : Just call me Ol' Cat Brain.
- PatsyT : We can't have any more cats with ideas! Excellent work and Ideas you should both deserve a hearty round of applause.
- AdLib : Here's the link to Skype, check it out: «link» . It's great, I use it to talk to people all around the world and the sound is crystal clear.
- AdLib : CL - Do you have a mike or a webcam? You can go to skype.com, it's a free download and service, just click on the download and it installs. As I say, you do need a mike or webcam though.
- choicelady : PAtsy - the very idea that my cats had ideas is scary. You're right. Out comes the dustpan and broom! They're too smart NOW.
- PatsyT : I have one available
- choicelady : Uh AdLib - I don't even know what Skype IS. Glad to find out though. Is it hard to set up? I have limited IT skills...
- PatsyT : CL sounds wonderful ... you need your rest and take that stuff away from your cats they might start getting funny ideas.
- AdLib : I can email the revision to the group so everyone can review the changes. Then we should set up another time. How about we Skype next time? Talking will be less fatiguing and more effective. Does everyone here have a Skype account?
- choicelady : AdLib - that would be SO helpful to have it in second draft before I share it. Thank you!
- choicelady : I'm sorry SueinCA could not get on. I know Boomer and kes are ahead in time. I promised kes coffee and pie, but since she could not make it, please tell her I ate it. FOR her, of course.
- AdLib : CL - Why don't I revise it first based upon our discussion tonight before you send it on, so I can remove the consumer advertising from it and other elements?
- PatsyT : Oh AdLib, sorry, I should have said it like this a- Visual frame with the same font and size and colors
- choicelady : Jenuwin - any thoughts about all this you'd like to add?
- AdLib : CL - Agreed, the 527 could list its top contributors as of the date of the production of the commercial.
- choicelady : OK all - I'm starting to swoon with fatigue. I love this conversation, but I'm dropping brain cells on the floor, and my cats are rolling them around. It's 9:00, and I'd REALLY like to do this again SOON, but there's nothing left of me tonight anymore. I will take the existing TICA and send it to my allies who've recovered enough from Prop. 15 to be helpful. I will let you know what they think. Can we think about doing this again in a couple of weeks?
- AdLib : Patsy - That would be great to have a single time frame but my concern is that it might be too onerous to require a 24 hour turnaround, especially when ads are running months before an election. Then in the last days, a longer timeframe would prove ineffective.
- PatsyT : Credits with a link to a web address for more info? maybe?
- PatsyT : I kinda like 24 hours
- choicelady : AdLib - a 527 could indeed reveal its top funders. Though I'd not limit it that way since it could also get donations AFTER its formation to promote the ad. It should be just have to reveal its top funders from any source, period.
- PatsyT : All the adds use the same bumper
- PatsyT : AdLib If it could be a universal frame so you can't mess around with it.
- AdLib : CL - SO maybe within the final 72 hours before an election, it's 24 hour notice?
- choicelady : AdLib - I'm catching up here. I think the 72 hour framework is fine - until the last two weeks. Famous revelations of "Sen. X was a notorious thespian" are actually TRUE stories of last-minute lies or distortions. So - we need to have standard time fram of 72 hours and something we hold in reserve for the "notorious thespian" revelation two days before the election.
- AdLib : That was a little confusing, let me try that again. A 527 or any organization made of multiple organizations would be required to place a still frame at the end of their commercials that displays their top five contributors.
- PatsyT : CL And AdLib thats it in a nutshell give the sponsors credit
- AdLib : CL - Yes, we are on the same page in the same book in the same Borders! I'm talking about the ad itself, the 527 would be required to provide "credits" at the end of any tv ad which lists their top 5 contributors.
- choicelady : AdLib - the corporations would demand that from unions. And we do have to consider unions and groups such as the Sierra Club do have the money to be part of this.
- PatsyT : CL you are right The real men behind the curtain have some mighty power...unless they can be revealed ?
- choicelady : AdLib - I think we're beginning to mix apples and oranges or bacon and waterchestnuts, or pawns and chickens, so I'm getting confused. The 527s already have ALL their funders on record as do campaign committees of all types. That is on the SoS web site (fun reading!) now. So when you say they have to disclose it - I'm presuming you mean IN ADVERTISING, right? Because it IS public knowledge and now is buried in that runon blather the announcer whispers at the end. It might be important to SHOW it for 3 seconds (I'll check on what it takes to mentally register with a viewer) with clear type, clear background, clear enunciation. Are you and I now on the same page about ADs???
- AdLib : Okay, jumping to one of the variables I'd like your input on, what do you think about the 72 hour time frame in this section? Once put on notice, the Corporation(s) then has two choices. It can remove the ad in question within 72 hours (Is this a good timeframe? Shorter? Longer?) from airing and refrain from any other advertising expressing the same or similar statements or inferences.
- AdLib : Maybe we require all corporate ads to play, "Won't Get Fooled Again" when showing their top contributors?
- PatsyT : AdLib top 5 or 3 they glaze over with too much info unless it is presented in song
- AdLib : CL - it would be forward looking to do as you say, allow the Legislature to improve the laws on disclosure and then be able to incorporate greater transparency in the TICA rules.
- choicelady : But Oz was a popinjay, no power. We're going to have to keep a weather on federal election law to see if they have the moxie (this is a family show) to demand REAL accountability for funding.
- AdLib : I am the Great and Powerful Pawnz!
- AdLib : CL - What I'm saying is that the 527 would be required to display its top 10 (or 5?) contributors so no detective work would be required.
- PatsyT : Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain - I am the Great and Powerful ....oz....
- choicelady : AdLib - yes, TICA can unearth the top funders. Other kinds of research can unearth who's behind the shells eventually. With any campaign committee or 527, the officers are already public. What amuses me is what I said before - if they are fined or otherwise penalized, I give it 30 seconds before THEY tell us who's who.
- AdLib : That sounds great, empowering the legislature to build on disclosure!
- PatsyT : That sounds like a yes AdLib
- choicelady : Go chickens! I'd like to throw in another item here. Because this will be in flux as we see how Citizens United works, unlike most initiatives/prop ositions I would LIKE to make this subject to amendment BY the Legislature to strengthen the disclosure rules. We can be adamant that there is no power to weaken those rules but CAN amend, simple majority, to increase public awareness of who is financing candidate adverstising and ballot proposition advertising. That would let GROW'sTICAgrow. If you see my point...
- PatsyT : AdLib, There was a Rachel M show about that shell game. It goes on and on like those russian dolls within a doll -she may have even used that as a prop
- AdLib : Well, for now let's concede that TICA won't be able to uncover the end user if shells are used but we could still require that the top 10 investors in a 527 are displayed at the end of an ad, yes?
- choicelady : AdLib - using shells is legal and thus not sanctionable. I've just NOT seen it a lot on either Wall Street OR in campaign contributions here in CA. For whatever reasons, it's been pretty open. Citizens United MAY change all that. We'll have to see.
- AdLib : So are my chickens.
- PatsyT : CL I am with you on that chickenliver
- AdLib : CL - The key would be requiring 527s to list their top contributors, that would expose the corps behind a 527...unless they created a variety of shells and invested through them to get around the spirit of the law. Could that be sanctionable?
- choicelady : Patsy = I think you're right. The bacon may be the most important part. However, truth in water chestnuts remains important. (Thank you for not using chicken livers which I hate. Makes a more user friendly image.)
- AdLib : This would be an annoyance that TICA may not be able to address but it wouldn't prevent TICA from applying its main function.
- choicelady : ADLib - let me clarify: finding the original donor would be hard for a 527 since there are generally LOTS of donations to set them up NOT because we would not be able to tell who they are. It's more an issue of trying to prove timing on origination especially if the 527 papers were filed out of state. We WILL KNOW most of the donors by name quite soon after they file with FPPC/SoS on campaign contributions.
- PatsyT : Speaking of bacon ... the ads are like water-chestnuts and the -who is paying for this- is like the bacon. so the bacon is the meaningful part without it the water chestnut is nothing.
- choicelady : AdLib - so far that has NOT been a problem. Somehow for every single campaign donation we've looked up, we've found the real McCoy. Of course that was PRE United Citizens (which is a 527 itself.) For donations to be done by shells and straws, it would get pretty onerous. That really would require federal law changes on disclosure that are nationwide since we could not regulate that part - Valero is based in Arizona, and CA has no jurisdiction on how they present themselves. Once it crosses state lines - feds, not states, need to intervene.
- AdLib : Well, I think through our conversation we have just found a massive hole in the Congressional legislation being proposed to force corporate CEOs to stand by their ads. The smart folks up in DC haven't figured this flaw out but we have! Score one for the Planeteers!
- AdLib : CL - But we can have bacon.
- AdLib : Hmm...so how can the real perps be identified if they're hiding behind multiple layers of shells?
- choicelady : Let me think on it about details. This is getting a bit over my knowledge level!!!! I'm about to show my ignorance - can't have THAT!
- choicelady : AdLib - the originating donor/investor in a political campaign or 527 would be very hard to find. That's more or less the level of work the Federal Elections Commission does. It would bust our bank here in CA to ask FPPC to do it - it's interstate commerce in nature. But we CAN find it once they've got it.
- AdLib : CL - Yes, there could be a specific font size minimum and a minimum time period for display. Nothing too onerus, maybe three seconds?
- PatsyT : Their whole ad would just be about who is paying for it!
- choicelady : The donors now are rushed "Thispaidadissp onsoredbyacoalit ionofbusinessrig htwingchristians andgreengrocers " We could demand more clarity and LARGER TYPE!
- AdLib : And if it is multiple corps or people, they would have to be listed. So people and corps can't hide behind shell companies?
- PatsyT : So how do you get that info on who is funding to the Low info voter and make them understand why it is important? In 30 secs or less?
- AdLib : What if the law said that the originating entity of an investment must be displayed in an ad. That is, the party who actually put the money into play originally?
- choicelady : That 527 work I did in 2000 was pathbreaking. It was the absolutely LAST 527 with hidden donors. We cleared the deadline by 4 hours on a major anonymous donor. From that point on, 527s DO have to declare their donors, and that is a federal law.
- AdLib : I think that would be a great idea, the more I think about it. If you saw an anti Barbara Boxer ad then saw that FreedomWorks was a financier of that ad, it would give voters a lot more perspective.
- choicelady : AdLib - you may be right about shell or straw corporations, but that, unfortunately, is federal law. Back in about 1975 Sen. Jim Aboreszk from South Dakota read ALL the straw names for corporations into the Congressional Record so we could see who "owned" things on Wall Street. We probably will have to do something of the same again. Nevertheless, we will have a pretty good handle on who's doing the heavy funding.
- PatsyT : Is it crazy to say that some if not most liberals might be proud to stand up for a candidate or cause? They have less to hide.
- PatsyT : Choice is that published in any meaningful way?
- AdLib : SO in a tv ad, shouldn't we require the top 10 investors in a 527 to be displayed? Or will that upset liberals involved in 527s?
- choicelady : The 527s HAVE to disclose their donations. It's already the law.
- choicelady : AdLib - as far as 527s, the rules are the same for all we've discussed. First, public disclosure is already CA law. (Remember the Yes on 8 folks threatened to "out" the No on 8 supporters then whirled a 180 and declared they did not want THEIR names revealed. Well, too late - they already are public record as corporate donations will be.) Then the rules of the game are still on. Even a 527 has disclosures on who's who. If it turns out that 527s are headed by Joe Schmo and HE gets fined - trust me on this - it will be a nanosecond before Joe blows the whistle on the REAL power behind the 527.
- AdLib : shell
- AdLib : How do we drill down to the real corps behind a 527? Should we require a still frame at the end of a commercial that lists the top 10 companies invested in a 527? Then again, I'm sure they could rig their way around that by setting up multiple chell corps.
- PatsyT : Those 527's have an army of lawyers and they are not afraid to use them
- choicelady : Patsy - I knew you'd hold us to a higher standard.
- choicelady : ADLib, Patsy, Jen (SueinCA when she gets here) - remember that corporations will themselve almost NEVER be the front guys. They will always hide behind Astroturf and 527 groups. Swift Boat Vets is a 527. This will never be as direct as you'd like. I'd LOVE to see the CEO of Valero Oil come out - but look what happened to T. Boone Pickens when HE did. He got CREAMED. So you aren't going to see that again. There will be more front groups with corporate funding behind them than ever before.
- AdLib : How would we deal with 527 front groups for multiple corps?
- AdLib : Mmm...Propositio n B for Bacon!
- PatsyT : And, dare I say, B A C O N !
- AdLib : I like the way you're both thinking. VOte for TICA and you'll lose 20 pounds in one week, eating pizza and donuts!
- PatsyT : Choice we have to lead by example
- choicelady : AdLib - I like requiring the CEO to stand up for what they're doing, but the 527s are fronts for MANY corporations. "Citizens for Clean Environment and Good Jobs" will be the front for trying to kill off the Clean Air Act, and it will be made up of campaign front people AND funded by coporations that will NOT stand up and say they are Valero Oil. They don't have to. BUT they DO have to declare their support via donations to the "Citizens for" campaign front group!
- AdLib : Hey, what if an additional fine was added to each violation that financed Reality Check commercials on current or recent ads?
- PatsyT : If things could be simplified for the low information voter - True or Not true - Some of the best intentioned folks have such limited interest and info... and Choice ....Rich, Thin and Wrinkle Free
- AdLib : CL - Yes, what this would do then is more likely force corps to announce that it is their opinion that Sen. Boxer is a socialist. It would prevent outright statements that are lies and corps would instead have to preface any or all statements with "In our corporation's opinion..." or else open themselves up to sanctions.
- choicelady : Patsy - maybe we can get them excited to vote for TICA by promising them they'll be rich and thin if they do? Oh. Wait. It's probably not good to promote truth in advertising with false statements. Ya think?
- choicelady : AdLib - what's so creepy is that voters ought to know it's ALL opinion! Planned Parenthood has a PAC and did 10 Congressional Districts in 2000. I had to research the background on about 20 federal bills (OMG!!!) and then print up each person's position on votes. Those were placed under statements of "Congressman Blowhard voted NO on a woman's right to choose in this amendment to the Armed SErvices Act" or some such, with the date of the vote and position of the vote and bill NUMBER all listed. That kind of FACTUAL information needs to be stressed. I do know however, that when TV ads give sources (NY Times, December 11, 1997) it can be almost impossible to find, first of all, AND even the story is open to interpretation. We won't be able to cut is ALL out, but we CAN make them cite chapter and verse and stop the Swift Boat lies.
- AdLib : Yes, why couldn't we require CEO's to state that "I'm Joe Blow, CEO of Exxon and this is my corporations opinion"?
- AdLib : SueInCA wasn't able to log in on the chat but is trying again!
- PatsyT : It's really hard to get people excited about some of these props - So many have no idea what they a voting for.
- choicelady : If every candidate had to say, "I, Carly Fiorina, think Jerry Brown was a total failure for these reasons" instead of doing ads "Jerry Brown failed at everything he did when he was Governor" with no proof, it would be game changing. So you could give options - labels (I like the "I approve this ad" stuff the federal elections commission passed) or content or both.
- PatsyT : Front and back
- choicelady : Patsy, thank you! We have some influence, but obviously since we backed Prop. 15 AND did a special mailing, we don't have enough. But we like to think we do help clarify. And we make it clear these are our "RECOMMENDATION S" based on our interpretation of values. We do NOT assert facts without end, amen.
- AdLib : It should be a standard sized label on the front or at the beginning of an ad, marking an ad as opinion.
- choicelady : AdLib - I think yes, someone could say "I think Sen. Blix is a child molester" BUT that is already covered under slander laws. I once learned there is a whole lot people can say about you that is NOT actionable. It's no longer a libel or slander to call you GLBT. It IS to call you a whore. Anything illegal that is attributed to you without proof is actionable. But putting it into OPINION makes it far less nasty. Anything factual - "Sen. Blix was arrested and convicted in Amador County in 1998 of necrophilia" - is still printable.
- AdLib : The one thing we'd have to require is exactly how an ad is labeled as opinion, so it's not in small print at the end of a dishonest accusation.
- AdLib : CL - I'm with you on that. All of us highly value free speech, we wouldn't want to promote anything that limits it, just something that blunts the spreading of lies as facts.
- PatsyT : There is value in those opinions from a group like you CL, the info is so confusing for so many and you help clarify
- choicelady : AdLib - I think anyone can say anything so long as they do not try to pretend it's FACT as opposed to opinion. It could make a huge difference in campaign ads. It would stop them from saying Nancy Pelosi is a commie and force them to say, it's my opinion that Nancy Pelosi leans toward policies that have communist elements. What a major difference that would be! "We, the Swift Boat Veterans funded by Dick Army, believe that John Kerry did not sail in Cambodian water or deserve his medals." MAJOR difference and yet saying the same things.
- AdLib : Or the same thing in a mailer?
- AdLib : But couldn't corps get around this by having an ad where an actor says, "I think Sen. Blix is a child molester"?
- AdLib : CL - I assumed that about you and your terrific org. Yes, I think you put your finger on it, opinion would have to be clearly labeled.
- choicelady : AdLib, Patsy Jen - I think I just landed on it. We do our mailers saying OPENLY - "this is our OPINION based on our interpretation of our core values and reading of the facts" The things we are regulating say THIS IS THE TRUTH -CANDIDATE X GNAWS WOOD AND SCRATCHES HIS BEHIND. Or they say VOTE FOR THIS PROPOSITION AND YOU WILL MAKE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. FAIL TO VOTE FOR IT AND YOU'RE TOAST. We don't remotely say anything as FACT.
- AdLib : The gray area would be, where does a wrongheaded opinion end and an untruth about a candidate begin? I could imagine corps running anti-TICA ads calling it the thought police and that it infringes on "your" right to have a negative opinion of a politician or law.
- choicelady : AdLib - WE don't do that sort of thing. We make very clear that we are interpreting the outcomes on propositions (we never do candidates - already forbidden by law) based on our values. So we don't say "high speed rail lines lie and obfuscate, hide sneaky land deals, and are ripping you off" no matter how we feel about it.
- PatsyT : Choice I am glad you are so well connected- The heavy legal stuff is out of my league
- AdLib : Opinions that slander leave the realm of free speech, yes?
- AdLib : CL - Yes, I think we would have to clearly protect opinion mailers that are voting guides. But an opinion mailer that says, My opinion is that Sen. Jones is a commie marxist who wants to kill Granny would violate the spirit of the law.
- choicelady : AdLib - I do think this is a complex issue (especially when you bring mailers such as ours and the League and Common Cause into it) so I'd be happy to run it past my allies. I do know Common Cause WANTS to do something nationally, and in CA the Ex. Director here is very sharp. If we could do this as a national test case, it would be great.
- AdLib : CL - That would be terrific, to run this by both of those great orgs. Though the corps won the disinformation campaign on Prop 15, I think it would be harder to fool voters on a Truth in Corporate Advertising prop.
- choicelady : AdLib - I don't have a problem with mailers being included, but because ours are entirely opinion and recommendations on how to vote, they and all such ballot guides MIGHT be exempt since they are quite openly OPINION. There are already very strong rules governing what we can say as a non-profit.
- choicelady : Since some of this seems to need legal minds, do we have anyone who is a legal eagle? If not, I could run this past my allies at Common Cause and League of Women Voters. I bet, even though we ALL were burned on Prop. 15, that they'd be very interested. And they have legal people at the ready.
- AdLib : CL - Yes, it would have to encompass for profit and non-profit corps or there would be a huge loophole for corps to jump through. As to mailers, that would seem to make sense to include them since they are also advertisements.
- choicelady : AdLib - yes, I believe it's that reason. Political issues do not, save presidential elections, cross state lines.
- PatsyT : Choice we need our wrinkle cream fantasy. Today reading The Tica info I keep thinking of a town square with a guy in the stockade getting his just deserts form the public via tomatoes.
- AdLib : So, going with the thought that TICA would target political ads only, going directly at corps in light of the Citizens United ruling, the way the overview reads, ads that either directly or indirectly leave viewers with a provably false statement or leave a false impression would be in violation. This would encompass ads with small print if the small print is a ploy to contradict untruths in an ad.
- choicelady : AdLib - in addition to corporations, remember that ALL large organizations including unions and independent expenditure committees (also known as 527s for their section in election laws) were freed up and given the same rights. So we will have to be clear that ALL corporations - and that includes non-profits such as the Chamber of Commerce - must adhere to the same standard. Luckily my organization does not advertise. And here lies the thin line - we DO issue MAILERS - guides written by our clergy with out OPINIONS of what we are called to do on certain issues. We also interpret propositions and recommend yes or no. Would such non-partisan opinion pieces be covered or would this just be PAID advertising - TV, radio, news?
- AdLib : CL - Gotcha. That's a drag. Interesting that states can have jurisdiction over political ads but not commercial. Guess that's connected to interstate commerce?
- choicelady : Patsy - multi-state companies such as MAssey would be so hard to unearth! They probably get fined in all 50 states, and we have no way to correlate the data. It would be expensive to lay on the SoS to unearth that data and repost it on the SoS site.
- AdLib : My feeling is that the best antidote to false advertising is to fine the offending company swiftly then use that fine, equal to at least the amount the commercial cost to produce and air, to advertise the truth.
- choicelady : AdLib - I believe all commercial ads are federal issues. If you had a CA-only company though, that might be different. I think I can find that out, but I betcha it's complicated and might divert us. ( And do I really want to KNOW my wrinkle cream does not work? )
- AdLib : CL - Very cool to hear the FPPC is slamming down the law.
- PatsyT : It seems like they don't mind the fine - Massey Energy? How about posting how many fines they have paid?
- choicelady : I wonder if we could force independent expenditure committees and related astroturf and phony citizen stuff to print their largest donors in the legal sections of major papers every election season at the START? Campaign contributions now ARE recorded on the SoS site - an extension of the FPPC's work. It's really interesting to see who's who and quite accessible. Deborah Bowen has improved the utility of said site, so that's another location.
- AdLib : If it's most practical to make TICA cover only political ads, then that's a wise way to go. Before we abandon the idea of truth in advertising on all corporate ads though, I wonder if the AG could have sufficient jurisdiction to handle all complaints?
- PatsyT : You know they could just go and reform themselves in another pac group with a patriotic name to sound like they are really for the little guy
- choicelady : Patsy - I'm not sure whether we could insist that ads had to be forthcoming with readable type, enough TIME to read the type, and maybe even verbal declarations of who's who in the backing. Today the FPPC laid a ton of fines on the top ten "independent expenditure" committees and named some of their backers. I will have to go back and read what the fines were for but they were big.
- AdLib : Patsy - I'm all for disallowing small print, requiring a font size minimum.
- PatsyT : It's that small print that is so bothersome - What if the folks in that small print had to read allowed their support
- choicelady : Patsy - we'll talk later about the kid stuff! LOL!!!!
- choicelady : AdLib - I think we get around that by making sure everyone is covered and that the issue is verifiable assertions, not slamming the lid on ALL assertions. The Sac Bee and other papers are doing (often poorly) a 'truth in campaign ads' feature to parse the facts and interpretations. No one has attacked that media funtion. I don't think they can. We would have to work at this to make it only really egregious lies not fussy details. But I think it would fly. As noted - there is no freedom of falsehood.
- AdLib : CL - FOllowing up on Patsy's suggestion and keeping in mind that what we are looking for is more of a referee, couldn't the AG oversee the examination of ads that may violate a Truth in Advertising law?
- PatsyT : Choice no, I like kids, of all ages
- PatsyT : Jurisdiction- Attorney general perhaps?
- AdLib : Okay, so if this was just covering political ads, which works for me, let's consider the vulnerabilities. Of course, it would be portrayed as an attack on Freedom of Speech and 1st Amendment rights...even though there is no right to lie.
- choicelady : Patsy - when you said splitting us up was beneficial, I for a moment thought it was AdLib and I that you thought were acting like your kids! Glad you clarified!
- PatsyT : Sorry guys Lots of kid drama here.... I am back...I can see why splitting up might be beneficial. You can choose to not buy those creams but your rep in congress is making choices for you. I like the focus of getting that small print off of those political commercials
- choicelady : AdLib - the SoS regulates only insofar as certain actions are met - proper organization, filings, etc. They don't regulate their actions which fall under the AG or Department of Commerce. Political stuff would come under FPPC. The kinds of regs you're discussing for commerce are almost all federal.
- AdLib : I understand. The dual nature has been an issue that's hard to solve.
- choicelady : AdLib - I've appreciated your concern on the vulnerability, but I actually think it's almost impossible to vet commercial advertising for truth anyway. Political ads for CA candidates (ruling out the presidential election but not necessarily CA Congress) would have real teeth. I think NOT covering commercial ads would actually strengthen TICA especially with voters.
- AdLib : The CA SoS, that is.
- AdLib : Doesn't the SoS have jurisdiction and the ability to regulate behavior by corps?
- choicelady : AdLib - I can't find a way to make that work given the two different jurisdictions. Commercial ads and political ads have such different oversight.
- AdLib : CL - Part of trying to make this more bulletproof was to have it cover consumer and political commercials by corporations, so any ad they put on would have to be honest. Does that still work for you?
- choicelady : Any "truth in advertising" now is federal - FCC when it's doing its job. If we're looking at a state proposition, then we'd have to separate the two things entirely. The state has no oversight function for advertising.
- AdLib : Is there a one stop shop to oversee both types of commercials, for products and political or would we need to split them up between an entity like the FPPC and the CA Consumer Affairs?
- choicelady : AdLib - if you mean the creams and lotions that sucker me into thinking I could look 30 again, no. But they handle everything about campaigns now, so I think it's a logical mission for them to oversee TICA.
- AdLib : CL - Sounds great but what about for commercials for products that are dishonest? Could they handle those too?
- choicelady : AdLib - you had left a number of blanks for the department that should oversee the violations and standards. I looked through everything and definitely think it's Fair Political Practices Commission. There are five members, it's bipartisan with a NON partisan mission. I know two of the commissioners. They toe a pretty tough line now, so I'd recommend that as the place to center the enforcement
- AdLib : Boomer said she wouldn't be able to make it, Kes said she thought she'd be able to make it but wasn't sure.
- Jenuwin : yes, let's get started before I sue for false pretenses
- PatsyT : Stop me before I pawn again
- choicelady : AdLib and PAtsy - any idea where everyone else is tonight? Jeuwin is going to thing she was lured here under false pretenses. So am I!
- AdLib : Okay, I guess we should get started. Let's begin with any general thoughts or comments about the TICA overview (you can review it by clicking this link: «link»
- choicelady : Either way, AdLib. Either way.
- AdLib : Or pun-ishment.
- choicelady : AdLib - I KNEW you would call it that!
- choicelady : Jen - I am SO sorry I started this! Hang in - we do grow up now and then!
- AdLib : CL - I'd call it cruel and unusual pawnishment.
- choicelady : Help - I'm being punned to death! I'm merely a pawn in this rampage!
- AdLib : A pawn the rooftop reindeers pawns...
- PatsyT : PawnetPOV
- PatsyT : On golden Pawn
- choicelady : AdLib - ooooo you're getting worse and worse at this. I see you have hidden talents. Thank God.
- AdLib : Once a pawn a midnight dreary...
- choicelady : I'd forgotten it was real. Can we sue in retrospect? They stole the name we WOULD have used had we only known?
- PatsyT : AdLib not to worry I think I can make up better things...
- AdLib : Aw, I thought you made that up. Now that you mention it, I do remember that show.
- PatsyT : It is on History channel «link»
- AdLib : We'll give it a few more minutes before we begin.
- choicelady : Pawnstars - I love it!
- AdLib : It's always darkest before the pawn?
- choicelady : Patsy I have the disguise down - I look like a tired middle aged woman. No one shall ever know. I'm a queen. Jen - what's your cover?
- AdLib : Pawnstars!
- AdLib :
- PatsyT : They have a new show- Pawnstars
- choicelady : AdLib - ooooo very BAD pun.
- AdLib : I will be the spokesperson for the pawns. Just call me, The Pawnbroker!
- PatsyT : Then you shall both be queens! In disguise
- choicelady : AdLib - now that's a very cool alternative for chess! Revenge of the Pawns!
- choicelady : Patsy - yes, but too often they're sacrificed for the Big Guys. We won't go that route!
- AdLib : Lots more pawns than any other piece on the chessboard. If they came together and worked towards reigning in the power of those who control the board, they could succeed. They might want to consider drafting a proposition.
- Jenuwin : good point
- PatsyT : pawns make the first move
- choicelady : jen - they do have QUIET power, don't they? But I mean we can't JUST be pushed around!
- AdLib : Avatar, thy name is mystery.
- Jenuwin : a pawn can be good sometimes....
- choicelady : Yes AdLib - he was the direct opposite of the Oil Judge!
- choicelady : jen - I want to add that just because we look like chess pawns, it does not mean we ARE!
- Jenuwin : we are indeed!
- AdLib : That's cool. As opposed to the judge in Louisiana who owns oil stocks then strikes down oil drilling moratoriums.
- choicelady : jenuwin - I can tell from our avatars that we are twins.
- Jenuwin : thanks!
- PatsyT : Hi Jenuwin
- choicelady : Hi Patsy, Hi jenuwin. Don't be shy - we want to hear from all.
- AdLib : Hi Jenuwin!
- AdLib : Hey Patsy! Welcome! Have a cookie...or a brownie. Trust me, the brownies are the ticket.
- choicelady : Indeed - and I saw it in action yesterday. The judge did all he could to try to make that happen. He went out of his way to put emphasis on restorative justice, not just punitive outcomes. And the judge is a Schwarzenegger appointee! I was very admiring of him.
- Jenuwin : i'm quietly in the background
- PatsyT : Hi AdLib Hi Choice!
- AdLib : Now, it's all about vengeance, no thought to the fact that most people get out of prison one day.
- AdLib : It sounds encouraging. Ah, for the days when imprisonment meant helping to reform people to become successfully integrated into society as productive citizens.
- choicelady : It was not a meeting - a friend's son was being sentenced to prison. He really screwed up but has done so well in jail that the judge commended him and wished him well. For a perfectly lousy day, it was very uplifting and moving. It was justice well served, and the judge was wonderful.
- AdLib : Agreed. With folks across the country, it can be a challenge to find a day and time that works for all.
- choicelady : I hope we get a full house - it's more interesting with everyone's thoughts flying!
- AdLib : How did your meeting go yesterday morning?
- AdLib : Heh! Nice to see you!
- choicelady : Good evening, AdLib! Nice to see you here since you ARE the moderator!
- AdLib : Welcome to the GROW Working Group discussion of the Truth in Corporate Advertising proposition! Please say "hi" when you arrive!
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