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MurphTheSurf3 On July - 11 - 2014

Hillary

In 2007 I was initially all in for Hillary but ended up going with Barack Obama. Hillary’s record, policies and style did not wear well with me.

I was reminded of her record and her policies when I read “The Left Ought to Worry About Hillary Clinton, Hawk and Militarist, in 2016” by Bob and Barbara Dreyfuss in a recent The Nation. It makes the case that Hillary is a Blue Dog Democrat, a moderate conservative, and what used to pass for a Republican in many states. (http://www.thenation.com/…)

That triggered a recollection about her style. I was drawn back to Spring 2007.

I was living in SC and went to the state Democratic Convention as a delegate in May of that year. The two leaders of the presidential pack were Hillary Clinton and John Edwards but Hillary was ahead of Edwards by a mile.

As I drove up to the Columbia SC convention center I noticed that the streets were lined with dozens of large signs — 30 feet tall, bouncing as huge fans at their bases filled them with air. Each proclaimed “Hillary” in HUGE letters. At the Convention center there was a sea of yard signs covering every entrance and scores of volunteers lined up outside waving posters and jumping about excitedly.

At each of the entrances there was a common display- A stand alone white door, framed by flowering plants, with a set of brick steps leading up to it. The door had a nameplate that read “Madame President.” It seemed to say that all that Hillary had to do was walk through that door.

On the main floor, in the area set aside for candidates, the Hillary “table” was a large pre-fab control center with computer check-in for volunteers who got color coded name tags linked to a staff member wearing the same color tag who coordinated the work to be done by each group. The booth dominated the entire area. It was slick, splashy, classy and oh-so professional. There was a training area screened off from the floor for new volunteers to train them in how to chant “Hil-La-Ry” (which had different tones for men and women); and to learn the day’s “Hillary-brief, the talking points.” Each volunteer got an itinerary telling them what to do, when to do it and where to be at precise times.

A countdown clock ticked off the minutes until her arrival. When Hillary arrived, a special flag went up above the control center to signal that the volunteers were all to be in position.  There was a high school band outside playing upbeat tones and a local choir inside singing spirituals…..as Hillary moved through the crowd, the volunteers chanted her name while the members of the choir called out: “You Go Girl, You Go Girl.” The chant and the call blended perfectly.

It was all so slick, so well organized, and obviously expensive.

Her speech at the Jefferson/Jackson dinner was carefully nuanced to appeal to the Blue Dog Dems who dominated SC Democratic efforts and as I think back on it THIS is Hillary’s natural audience- an Arkansas audience. Democrats who are really old GOP.

It was  impressive and a bit worrisome….her record, her policies were already a concern but on that day the assumption seemed to be “who else but her….”

The next day I picked up “Dreams From My Father” by Barack Obama.

A DISCLAIMER: With the midterms around the corner and the 2016 race on the near horizon, I find myself wondering where I will land this time around. Once thing I know, whoever the Democrats choose that person will be MY candidate as I have come to believe that any Republican, no matter who that person is, will be a bad choice for America because I have lost all confidence in the GOP. They no longer have any claim to credible leadership.

Written by MurphTheSurf3

Proud to be an Independent Progressive. I am a progressive- a one time Eisenhower Republican who is now a Democrat. I live in a very RED STATE and am a community activist with a very BLUE AGENDA. Historian, and "Gentleman Farmer."

64 Responses so far.

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  1. Pete Geller says:

    I’m hoping for a candidate who isn’t in the corporate pocket. Bill Hicks did a pretty good bit on the issue…. 😉

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaG4w-VUXtc

  2. NoManIsAnIsland says:

    Thanks, Murph. I saw Elizabeth Warren for the first time on her initial appearance on Bill Moyers’ show, at least a few years before she was called to government service. Before she finished her first sentence in response to Bill, I turned to my wife and said “She should be our first woman president; and if she runs someday, she will be.”

    Kristin Gillebrand is also presidential material, and the hat is big enough for both of their names — as well as for a number of liberal and progressive men with great authenticity and integrity. The Democratic party is as full of good candidates — save Hillary — as the Republican party is empty of them.

    And if I may paraphrase a famous saying (often attributed to Edmund Burke and also to John Stuart Mill, but never said in the actual words commonly quoted by either): “All it takes for the triumph of Hillary Clinton in the contest for the Democratic nomination for president in 2016 is for good men and women to do nothing.”

    Turn up the burner under both ideas, Murph. Go Elizabeth, go Kirsten!

    • James Michael Brodie says:

      I love Elizabeth, but there is a “Ted Kennedy” quality about her for me.

      Let me explain. Ted may go down as one of the great senators in US history, but even when I supported his runs at the White House, I wondered if he could do as much there as he was doing in the Senate.

      I feel the same way about Sen. Warren. I think her power comes from having a strong voice in the Senate — one that cannot be ignored or obstructed. It think that, as a progressive, she would face stiffer opposition from the Right than even Obama has.

      Yes, Sec. Clinton is very much to the Right of Obama. But she is still far to the Left of anything the GOP can muster — I see only Christie or Jeb Bush even having a chance against her.

      • Nirek says:

        Brodie, yes Elizabeth may not be able to win but she can keep all the other candidates on point. Bernie Sanders is the same, he probably will not win but he will bring a lot of common sense issues to the forefront. I hope they both run to get the issues out there. They both are capable of guiding the conversation in the correct direction.

      • Hey Jim! I agree completely. EW is very pragmatic and she has said that she was elected to do a particular job (Senator) and she intends to do that job to the best of her abilities.

        I’m not crazy about Hillary, but as you say, she would be far better than any fanatic the GOP is going to nominate. Rand Paul is their current front runner? Oh puleasssse! Ted Cruz? Hell no! Marco Rubio? Give me a break! Rick Perry? Fugitaboutit!

  3. funksands says:

    Murph, I’m trying to approach Hillary with an open-mind. She is such a polarizing figure, that I worry sometimes that I’m not being fair in my analysis of her.

    Let me pose a question: What policies of hers do you disagree with or worry about?

    My decision not to vote for her in 2008 was based on two things: A vague sense of unease that she was Wall Street Democrat in a time that would could not afford one. But I was mostly turned off by who she surrounded herself with. Leftovers from her husband’s campaigns, Mark Penn one of the heads of the slimiest law firm on earth, and her economic team consisted of some of the same crew that helped usher in the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

    But with that, I find that I don’t disagree that much with many of her positions.

    I find her attitudes toward homeland security too hawkish for my tastes
    I find her bill to outlaw flag burning to be juvenile
    She has very little to say about income inequality
    Her past “all energy sources” energy policy is outdated
    Her support of Labor is murky
    Is an unequivocal supporter of Isreal and their claims

    But she has very firm things to say about Climate Change
    She is very critical of NAFTA
    Voted against CAFTA
    She unveiled what was essentially Obamacare during her campaign, so I expect her to continue to protect and enhance it, while being open to its evolution to single-payer
    Her positions on immigration are quite reasonable and thought out.
    She is very reasonable on gun issues.

    She’s not a terrible candidate. But I will be watching very closely who she surrounds herself with.

    A Sanders (as Democrat) and/or Warren candidacy would be very welcome to me to nudge and push the conversation where it needs to belong.

    Like you though, a Clinton Presidency would be 1000x better than anyone the GOP will put up against her.

    Plus, I have a sick/dark streak in me that would love to see Obama hand off the keys to the White House to her as RWNJ heads explode across the country.

    Thanks for the trip back down memory lane.

  4. RSGmusic says:

    HI Murph i do like the article.

    Nothing worse the a women politician scorned.

    Hillary = republoindyohdemcrat.

    Improvisation is the key to a new HOOK & Jam out.

    A synthesizer can create any instrument made and others that have not be created yet.

    • GreenChica says:

      RSG — I’m not real impressed by “male politicians scorned” either.

      • RSGmusic says:

        Yes agreed!!!! especially the Far right or republicans!!

        live long and prosper!!

        A synthesizer can create any instrument made and others that have not be created yet.

    • MurphTheSurf3 says:

      ReploIndyohDemcrat….good lord! But quite accurate….

      I am a story teller in part because stories tell me what I believe and why. That Door with “Welcome Madame President” just sticks in my craw!

      So how does the Democratic Party improvise to get into a new groove and jam from there?

      • RSGmusic says:

        So how does the Democratic Party improvise to get into a new groove and jam from there?

        OH boy that is a very hard question!

        If you mean Hillary? It is too hard for her to improvise a jam out. Now the HOOK/grove is something that she will use as a campaign theme. She can make it catchy and the small clip of music should a short run of notes to a hold on strings in a for note chord!

        As for the democrats basically the platform needs little change. What the Dems need to do/change?
        One: is find a popular provable way to raise taxes on the rich and make the large corporations pay 10 % taxes on the income. 40 to 60% of large corps and big biz pay ZIPPO federal taxes on billions of profit!!

        Two The democrats must eliminate or have very small subsidies for Farms. oil companies, power companies and for minds. Save the Food stamps and welfare and raise them slightly.
        Then use a large amount for research the scientific community to invent new things at a lower price and new jobs.

        A synthesizer can create any instrument made and others that have not be created yet.

        • MurphTheSurf3 says:

          SO..

          Find another standard bearer, not HRC

          Find another way to finance our government

          Stop transferring tax dollars to the profit centers

          Yep…makes sense to me.

          • RSGmusic says:

            Hello again Murph.

            As for your teams very interesting.

            I will do some research on them.

            A synthesizer can create any instrument made and others that have not be created yet.

          • RSGmusic says:

            Well murph Hillary may get the nomination no matter what SO i will vote for her.

            My team is Warren/Sanders or the other way around so warren can use the VP spot to do her work of the avg person.

            Yes the platform should stop $$$$ to profit centers.

            long life murph!!

            • MurphTheSurf3 says:

              I will do the same.

              I do not have a team yet but my interest has been piqued by Martin O Malley, Julian Castro, and Kirsten Gillibrand.

              Warren’s experiential base is too narrow but she is laser focused on it and that is her passion, her crusade. Sanders is not a democrat, although he caucuses with them. He is a proclaimed socialist who is smart and outspoken but with a record of little accomplishment in the Senate. So one impresses me but part of that is the certainty of her lack of interest in the WH, and the other does not impress at all.

  5. VegasBabe says:

    Nicely done murph! I plan to wait and see….someone besides HRC will most certainly run who will not require some of us, including me, holding our respective noses from the dem base! hey, I can hope!

    • MurphTheSurf3 says:

      I am certain she will have challengers but my concern is that they will not have the resources she has. Obama overcame her money, personpower, organization and name value as a “once a great while” charismatic candidate. There is no one in the wings that fits that description right now. Tomorrow? Who knows.

      • NoManIsAnIsland says:

        Murph, most of us have heard the Texas expression “All hat and no cattle.” Your perceptive recollection is a good slice of why Hillary is “a lot of hat and very little cattle.”

        While she hasn’t yet declared she’s in the running for the Democratic nomination for president in 2016, it seems she’s the only one not positive her hat’s in the ring. Just as in 2008, we can assume Hillary’s happy for everyone to see her in the catbird’s seat. And why shouldn’t this please her?

        She does have a lot going for her: years of political and governmental experience, loads of financial support, and a significant base among those — and not all of them women — who are willing to swallow her distance from the core principles of the Democratic Party in their zeal to elect her the first woman president.

        And as many of us realize, she has done well in trying to appear to be all things to all Democrats. But at heart and in mind she remains tied to the movers and shakers of Wall St., the banks and largest corporations. She dances to their tune — not ours.

        Yes, Hillary does have what some consider to be
        insurmountable advantages for 2016. But
        while not born with a silver foot in her mouth
        as was George W. Bush, she has a genius for
        saying the wrong thing at the wrong time that
        Bush can only marvel at. If she respects facts
        and the truth, she has seldom shown it. She
        has yet to say what she has to offer that
        would make her the Democrats’ best candidate
        in two years.

        For everything Hillary does have, and charisma isn’t one of them, she lacks a vital virtue — desired, but
        seldom seen — in presidents: authenticity.

        This deficiency helped doom her in 2008 and is likely to sink her in 2016 if we do our best to help the cream of several very authentic Democratic candidates rise to the top in 2 years!

        It may well be human nature for people to proclaim someone the “inevitable” choice every presidential
        cycle, but this is nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy, and it’s already gone on too long for Hillary Clinton.

        The time to stop her is here and now. It’s really up to us and other like-minded people to help the Democratic Party choose a candidate who will pick up where Barack Obama will leave off and return democracy to the people, and not, in RSGmusic’s words, a “republoindyohdemcrat,” who will serve the kleptocrats just like any other Republican president.

        • Remember this?

          Interesting how you have applies this to Hillary herself.

          What is comes down to is does she have what it takes to be President. She has what it takes to run a strong campaign: the money, the connections, the staff, the resume, the stamina……but who is it that we are getting once she winss? That is a key question. Really, THE key question….

          You use the word “authenticity”. I use the word “integrity” to name the cornerstone that is made of soft limestone at the foundation of her efforts to reach the WH.

          I wish she had had more time in the U.S. Senate and at State- both experiences seemed to push here into a more realistic space….but she has lived most of her life as part of the image of her hubby who is an astounding con man- who I rather like but have no illusions about.

          When I was making up my mind I kept seeing HRC at that Jefferson Jackson dinner and what emerge for me is her laughter….and Jon Stewart nails this….

          http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/1xwx9x/hillary-s-laugh-track

          • NoManIsAnIsland says:

            Very perceptive, Murph. As I hadn’t seen the photo of Hillary and its caption, it’s an interesting coincidence I applied to Hillary what she directed at George Bush.

            I think Hillary’s “authenticity” deficit is one of her most glaring faults, and Jon Stewart really did nail how transparently fake her personality is, as shown by how studied and utterly false her “laughter” was in the video you linked — which I also hadn’t seen before. And to me integrity is so intimately bound with authenticity I didn’t mention Hillary’s troubling
            lack of integrity as an additional defect of hers.

            I agree with you Hillary’s time in the Senate and State Dept. did “…push her into a more realistic space” and that more time in those offices would have given her more chances for improvement. But if her recent actions and behavior are any evidence, she shows no signs of newly-gained authenticity or integrity.

            Like most of our presidents, who clearly didn’t have the “right stuff” to be presidents but were elected anyway, I don’t think Hilary does either. Like them she does have what it takes to be “a” president. She just doesn’t have what it takes to be a good president, and I wouldn’t bank on her learning on the job.

            This is the KEY issue for me as well.

            • MurphTheSurf3 says:

              Just got back to your excellent reply. Upon re-reading it all I can say is: ditto.

              There is a big push on to get Elizabeth Warren or Kristin Gillebrand to toss their names into the hat….I am beginning to warm up to both ideas.

  6. Murph, I’m in the same boat re Hillary. 2014 seems to be playing out the way 2007 did, with Hillary being the ‘inevitable’ candidate. But Hillary has never had the political instincts of her husband, and seems incapable of speaking extemporaneously without laying a giant goose egg. Her recent statement about being broke is exhibit A, and she did plenty of that back in 92--remember her ill-considered crack about not staying home to bake cookies?
    She will not make it through the Democratic convention, imho. And I think she is the perfect GOP candidate--moderate, and not likely to go on a jihad against the moneyed interests. There is some really contentious business going on in GOP land--one of the GOP’s most famous Wall Street fundraisers, Georgette Mossbacher, has practically jumped ship on the party because of the crazy shenanigans of the Tea Party. Boehner’s turf war with Cantor (who had huge Wall Street backing) over emergency aid for NY post-Sandy alienated a whole bunch of donors from Wall Street. The country club GOP may be ready for a divorce from the Bircher loonies who’ve taken over the primary process.

    I don’t know where this all goes. But it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that the moneyed interests will bolt from the GOP if the primary voters find everyone but Sarah Palin or Mike Huckabee too far to the left.

    • MurphTheSurf3 says:

      Thumbs up and up and up.

      Your point about her “public speaking extempore speaking instincts” is of particular value. I think of her head to head with Rand Paul in the Senate- while I know that many saw the interchange as her getting tough on the senator, I saw her choice of language awkward and frankly a little disturbing- “what difference does it make.” I think a lot- the origins of the attack are very important and say a lot about its meaning.

      I don’t think that anyone, however, can match her resources (money, people, organization, and name) unless another charismatic figure comes along.

      Her GOP-like positioning could be to our advantage IF she can also push a liberal agenda in some areas..as you read I am a bit tepid..lukewarm…wishwashy, squishy….then and now.

      I need to look into your great lead re Georgette Mossbacher and how it applies to the Wall Street crowd in general- I think your underlying insight might be key. If Hillary is as much a friend to them as the GOP and a lot more stable lacking the destabilizing influence of a Left Wing Tea Party group, why not walk away from the GOP and buy into the Dems (hell, the Demographics are turning so badly against them this might be a good investment).

      • Murph--this article got wide circulation a year or so ago. It points to why NYers with deep pockets may be jumping ship.

        http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/08/mosbacher-i-m-furious-at-my-own-party.html

        • MurphTheSurf3 says:

          Great Quote: “The co-chair of the RNC’s Finance Committee (and CEO of Borghese cosmetics), Mosbacher is “mad as hell” about the myriad ways the “brand has been tarnished”: the sorry state of the presidential primary process, the ongoing alienation of Latino voters, the “outrageous” Senate candidates that the party ran this cycle, the epic failure of the fiscal-cliff negotiations, and, most recently, the House’s dithering over disaster aid for the victims of superstorm Sandy.”

          I wonder where she stands on recent develoments. Went looking and could find nothing.

  7. glenn says:

    Sometimes it seems as though we’re going backwards in this country. I don’t care if the candidate is white, brown, blue, purple, black, Dem, or Repub, as long as her/his policies are sane and work for the majority of Americans. More power to her if she’s a woman, but not just any ole woman will do!

    • SueInCa says:

      Glenn
      “but not just any ole woman will do” is the big mistake John McCain made. He thought by naming a woman, he could fool us. We are not that easily fooled.

      • MurphTheSurf3 says:

        Putting the tundra queen and an the heiress apparent in the same kettle makes a lot of sense to me and that is more than a little disconcerting!

      • glenn says:

        Sue--unfortunately some people in this country are easily fooled, and still are by the likes of sp. I loathe that woman! And I loathe John McCain for unleashing her on us.

        • MurphTheSurf3 says:

          I was so glad to see the poll that showed that 54 percent of us want her to shut the F up…..

          of course that mean that 46 percent are saying, blabber on, sweetie.

          she is such a grifter- someone who swindles you through deception or fraud.

          From her disastrous run as mayor, through her governship, to her VP slot, and as a paid shill for Fox and a front for Tea Party sentiments when she is among the most obvious takers out there, she is an embarrassment.

    • MurphTheSurf3 says:

      That is what is referred to as a mature political perspective rather than the immaturity that comes with single issue or single demographic based voting. Love your closing line…for me it is this…all else being equal am I inclined to vote for a woman…absolutely and for many reasons (not the least of which is gender influence disparity, but I add to that an attitude displayed by most women I know that seems better geared to bipartisanship and problem solving.)

      • glenn says:

        Murph--Thanks for calling me “mature”. Or is that just an euphemism for “old”? :)

        However, I agree with you 100% as to MOST women being geared to bipartisanship and problem solving. Unfortunately, we have women like the former candidate for VP who are only about, “me, me, me”.

        I think Hillary is just as flawed a candidate as the former VP candidate. Yes, she does have some positives, and yes, she is extremely intelligent. With that said, she says and does some extremely stupid things, which only give her opponents more ammunition.

        I’m just not sure that if we still have a divided Congress, repubs in the House, Dems in the Senate, that ANY Democratic President will be able to move this country forward. And a repub president will only move this country further backward, IMO. Which is the reason that I will vote for the Dem candidate, no matter who it is. So, that is much more a partisan attitude than a mature one, but I just don’t see ANY repub candidate doing what’s best for the majority of Americans, especially middle-class Americans.

        So, while my attidue may be mature, it is also idealistic. I think, in all practicality, it will remain an idealistic attitude unless and until a “statesman/woman” comes on the scene.

        • MurphTheSurf3 says:

          Mature (per Merriam Webster) having or showing the mental and emotional qualities of an adult

          That is you, my dear.

          What is comes down to is does she have what it takes to be President. She has what it takes to run a strong campaign: the money, the connections, the staff, the resume, the stamina……but who is it that we are getting once she winss? That is a key question. Really, THE key question….

          No Man is an Island used the word “authenticity”. I use the word “integrity” to name her cornerstone that is made of soft limestone at the foundation of her efforts to reach the WH.

          I wish she had had more time in the U.S. Senate and at State- both experiences seemed to push here into a more realistic space….but she has lived most of her life as part of the image of her hubby who is an astounding con man- who I rather like but have no illusions about.

          When I was making up my mind I kept seeing HRC at that Jefferson Jackson dinner and what emerge for me is her laughter….and Jon Stewart nails this….

          http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/1xwx9x/hillary-s-laugh-track

          That laugh and her regular faux pas come from the same place- “her public persona” and that is not who will govern as president.

          In her desire to be seen as a success will a President Clinton II do as her hubby did and make devil’s deals? I fear that this is so.

  8. EXFANOFARIANA says:

    Sorry for being absent for a while. Yesterday, arriving from still another business trip, don’t ask me why, but the Manchurian Candidate was on my re-watch list.With little nuances, American politics have been stained for so many years.Albeit not being a paranoid, -- at least that’s what I hope to see myself -- I cannot fathom what is going on on American policies and yet I can.
    WHY celebrate the 4th of July when you guys have allowed your country to become a xerox copy of Imperialism? Every American believe this is the “greatest” nation in the world for they have been manipulated into this fallacy. Yes it is a good country but not -- by all means -- the GREATEST one. Great countries do not have homeless vets, nor do they put profit before the well being of their population.What is worse: Americans have been exporting their worst food -- fast food -- to the planet all in the name of the almighty dollar. Your country corrupt those who are corruptible, taking advantage of those intellectually lesser ones. For the past 30 years, the WHO have recognized your exports, resume on selling drugs -- legal ones -- and food contaminated by GMOs.Hence, the world, civilized and industrialized ones, are also getting FAT.
    Resuming -- despite the opinions here about HRC -- what is wrong about making money out off your own self? I abhor people who make money off of the misery of others. But not the way they do. Are they perfect? NO. Still, Bill Clinton is adored around the world trying to make poor countries better off. Your former president, the killer, the invader, the war criminal……painting infantile paintings.PEACE. to all. My vote would be to Sen Sanders…Or Elizabeth Warren.Then, we have to wake up and smell the coffee.How NAIVE can you be? I suggest you all to read this month’s Smithsonian mag issue to factually know what goes on yoy country -- south side. XX

    • MurphTheSurf3 says:

      Many thoughts here… thank you for sharing them…you have been most busy I think.

      I think the U.S. as a paragon of virtue, as the shining city on the hill, as a model for how things are supposed to be is largely myth- an enduring one but mostly a tall tale.

      WWII and the Cold War along with its role as a refuge for immigrants are most responsible for this coupled with our own historical propaganda abut the uniqueness of our national experience

      How does this tie into Hillary- I think she is hawkish both in terms of international relations/dealing with rivals and outright enemies and in terms of the role of Big Money in our economy.

      Your list of national embarrassments is real but I don’t think the U.S. is alone in this- the homeless, the impoverished, the trapped- I see them everywhere (even in “ideal nations” like Canada, the nordic nations, Germany/Austia, Switzerland, Australia, New Zeald…all the ones I hold up as models) Still, the wasting of our national resources on war has cost us dearly and made all of these problems much worse for us.

      As to who has a better profile -- Sanders (a solid mind, a firm sense of what he believes in, AND not much of a record in getting things done….in many ways he and Alan Gratson in the House have a lot in common). I love Warren but I recognize that she has a very particular set of skills and she knows that too- she has a path to travel that is largely as a crusader for the middle class.

      So, I am still casting about.

      A word about our bad food—- yeah, fast food and GMO’s are not hallmarks for the AMerican Heritage…..

      • EXFANOFARIANA says:

        Valid and solid points you have here.Yet if you compare the amount of homeless citizens per capita and cross them with the US -- veterans included, you will see the staggering difference. And the only Nordic country I’ve seen homelessness was Finland due to the intense drinking and I’d dare say a constant state of depression.
        I never meant to drag all Americans as arrogant with a superior holier than thou behavior.On the contrary: I have here great minds and intellects who I sincerely love.When I talk about the comment “greatest country” , my mind brings me back the squirming look on faces like Romney,Brush,Perry etc.And FYI I LOVE your country.
        Sanders/Grayson would be the ideal pair.Byt then, remember Nader? Cheers my friend.(I was following the World Cup and got totally distracted.:)

        • MurphTheSurf3 says:

          A word about the Nordic countries….

          a) generally healthy economies
          b) generally ethnically monolithic (not much immigration permitted)
          c) tax policy that is generous, and can afford to be, without the need to expend a ton of money on defense
          d) strong educational establishments that prepare excellent work forces.

          P.S. I took your comments in context and never saw them as a blanket condemnation. Glad you made them though.
          those are a lot of advantages…

          and a word about Finland…one of the finest school systems in the world- at the top of the Western States and near the top globally.

          My point- U.S. society is a lot more complex and, whether we should have it or not, our military eat up a ton of our discretionary revenue.

          As to the idea ticket. I have been attracted to Molloy of Maryland, Castro of Texas and Gillibrand of NY.

          Sanders is an avowed socialist with a poor record of accomplishment in the Senate. Grayson is a firebrand who cannot make alliances. Both serve a purpose and it is an important one. But neither are suited for the role of national leader..

          All my opinion of course.

          • EXFANOFARIANA says:

            Yes, Sanders is an avid socialist…and the only kind of socialism I like is the Scandinavian one. Indeed Grayson is a firebrand , but I happen to like him a lot -- just as I did Anthony Weiner: they are the brave ones who never backed off of screaming republicans.They told the truth plain and simple. Don’t know much about Molloy but plenty of Gillibrand and Castro.Shall have to look deeper on this one.
            Finland definitely kicks butt on education standards and I kind of like the country but could never live there whereas I could gladly, in any of Scandinavian ones.If only my husband did not detest snow and cold so much….

            BTW is it possible to delete my post here? Sue is right: it could be taken as if I am lumping in every American?Thanks.Peace!

            • MurphTheSurf3 says:

              I like firebrands. I like outliers. I like rebels. I like Grayson (I actually know him! and he is a good man of great passion). I like what Sanders says but I find his followup always lacking energy (but hey! the guy is no spring chicken.

              These kind of folks do not make great national candidates (and yes Nader and Perot both fit that description too).

              Nader gave the election to Bush and Perot gave it to Clinton by siphoning off voters.

              I have been to Sweden and Denmark- like both countries a lot. The best of Switzerland with a lot of realism. Like that.

              Delete a post. Yes. At the bottom of your original comment there is a link to edit your comment which you do not need anyone’ ok to do. AND there is one to request a deletion. Click it and you are asked “how come”. You give your answer and admin responds- almost always with a “ok.”

    • RSGmusic says:

      EXFANOFARIANA, well you have been away a while and you are always busy.
      YA many people can be lumped that way but not all. NO america is not the greatest country.
      What once was the bill of rights is now in question. The constitution is being tore apart.

      As a Native Indian mostly america lost its freedom when people started migrating here and then said well it is their land now. the constitution sealed our fate come 70 yrs from 1776.

      What once was Arapaho land is now a very large national park of the same name. Where the Colorado river and the roaring forks meet was once an america Indian meeting place for the mountain tribes.
      Some times with a few trades we hunted the plains of Colorado. their are many tales now all but forgotten by a few. I have hiked and fished more of Colorado then almost anybody. What happened to are home in the 1840 and on tell today.

      Did you listen to any of ghost stories!

      ( the little White lies ) first song
      IT was Tuesday of yesterday, i dropped by in my Chevrolet.
      Going down after the girls, Like divers after purls.
      Now Arvid has a line, that will win them every time.
      I have a boat that is too big for the sea.
      would you like to sail with me.

      Nice trumpet/sax Moog synthesizer lead sections and arvid guitar lead is very good.

      With all the friendship we have XO, XX to XO, XX

      The ghost!!

      pass this link around to friends that would like to hear My music from that old musician you know. Does the music go well at parties.

      https://soundcloud.com/userghost

      A synthesizer can create any instrument made and others that have not be created yet.

      • EXFANOFARIANA says:

        I completely agree with you, my dear RSG. Yes I’ve heard some of them.Not all as of yet.It was work and the World Cup.But what I did listen to, enjoyed it immensely.
        Saturday and Sunday I’ve worked 14/hours a day.I am really exhausted.XX.Back to work.XOXOXO
        I will pass the link around.

        • RSGmusic says:

          HI my favorite Nickname and piano player.
          Yes your always busy. Yep if we lived close we would be a friend of yours.

          Well i am glad you have listened to some. These Songs really portray early writings and up to when we lived in New Orleans ( Naw lins )

          You can write me via e mail with specifics if you would like?? Will wait patiently!

          With all the friendship we have D and R

          A synthesizer can create any instrument made and others that have not be created yet.

          • EXFANOFARIANA says:

            I will. I sent a burn CD to my nephew in Ottawa for he is also a musician -- drummer -- and has a band.
            We are already great friends. Lord knows how much I praise my digital family:).Way more than some “real” family relatives.Here we get to CHOOSE with whom we want to be friends and share our thoughts.Whilst family…we haven’t chosen them now, have we?LOL lovies to you and D.XX

            • RSGmusic says:

              Yes sometimes friends actually never meet.
              I see your nephew, Drummer. I love to hire drummers when i can.

              Hugs from Us both

      • MurphTheSurf3 says:

        Very moving.

        “What once was Arapaho land is now a very large national park of the same name. Where the Colorado river and the roaring forks meet was once an america Indian meeting place for the mountain tribes.”

        I think that this is the well of feeling from which you draw your sense of disappointment in the nation.

    • SueInCa says:

      ExfanofArianna

      Hi and welcome from me to the Planet. I have been away for awhile.

      I read your post and agree with most of it but you are lumping all Americans in to one pot(at least that is how it sounds -- it could be your way of speaking) For instance -- Americans did not export fast food around the world, the CEO’s of those companies did, just as they exported our jobs to take advantage of cheaper labor in other countries. I might add if the leaders of those countries had not helped, perhaps we would not be in this mess. It takes two to tango and the other countries around the world did, indeed, tango with America. It is the regular people who had no say.

      I do agree there are a lot of Americans who are oblivious but there are also those of us who are actively trying to change things. Like I said, I am sure you did not mean to lump us all in a bad light. I just wanted to voice my opinion of how very different Americans can act and think.

      • EXFANOFARIANA says:

        Sue, have been a major fan of yours since HuffiPuffie which luckily , I have stopped visiting for almost a year now.Evidently I did not mean to lump all Americans on my post.I love the people ho comment and post here and have several extraordinarily good American friends.Perhaps I should have been more careful on my observation . I love your country but abhor the arrogant position of MOST the neoCONS.Good to see you here.Hugs and peace.Cheers.

        • SueInCa says:

          NotAFanofArianna

          No problem, I was pretty sure you did not mean all Americans. Had I thought that, I might have not been so nice :-) I remember you from HP days too although I have not been there in a long while.

          Wonderful to see you here, as well as many others I recognize from those days. We all generalize, at times, I am certainly no angel in that department. We can agree on the Neocons but I would add the religious right to the mix as well. Looking forward to your posts and having meaningful conversations with you here. :-)

          • EXFANOFARIANA says:

            My moniker FanofAriana alright.MEA CULPA… I am the first one to say generalizations are imbecilic hence I will ask AD Lib for deletion.It was wrong of me.I played like an ass hat…:)

      • NoManIsAnIsland says:

        Very well said, Sue. It’s never a good idea to to assume ALL citizens of a country or members of
        a certain group think and feel the same.

        I believe in everything in moderation — including moderation! 😉

        • SueInCa says:

          Especially moderation, No Man, we are all adults. The internet trolls have messed up a great deal of what was once intriguing dialogue. Notafanof Arianna -- I was not speaking of you, just want to make that very clear, I was talking about moderation of internet comments.

      • MurphTheSurf3 says:

        As always Sue you bring both nuance and expanded horizons to any discussion.

        Your point about who are the “Americans” is especially telling as is the role of the leadership of those other places….what we all, and that is me too, need to recall is that the elites in the nations have much more in common with each other and much more connection with each other than they do with most of their so-called “fellow citizens.”

        • MurphTheSurf3 says:

          Germany has a very hard stance on this. Companies like Walgreens have a special status as long as corporate assets remain German and lose it when the assets move….makes sense to me.

        • SueInCa says:

          Exactly Murph. In fact if they thought this was really going to be helpful for the American job market, they would have been making plans in the open, transparent for all to see.

          • MurphTheSurf3 says:

            They knew the truth and they worked very hard to hide it.

            I heard a off-shore banker trying to explain how the parking of big profits at off the books banks by major corporations was in fact a patriotic act since it created “a safety net, a buffer” protecting financial resources from ravenous government.

            In the meantime those parking that money get enormous tax breaks, subsidies, incentives and use the tax created infrastructure to make money….

            • SueInCa says:

              I believe the CEO of Walgreens made that statement recently. Trying to justify his move of their HQ to Europe and renouncing, in effect, their citizenship.


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