• AdLib : Oh no! Hope it’s not too bad! Thanks Fergie1 and you have a great weekend too!

  • Fergie1 : Yes AdLib. A Very Good Night to you and it’s almost sundowner hour here! Thank you for your great thoughts. Have a lovely weekend Ad. Byeee!

  • Fergie1 : Thanks so much Ad. Yeah, I’ve apparently cracked the ball of my femur….oh joy! I won’t moan about it because I’ve had worse events in 2012 and 2011!! So it’s ‘don’t sweat the small stuff’ at this stage. I might change my mind next week when I hear what the next step (so to speak!)is.

  • AdLib : Well, looks like it’s about that time to close the Vox Pop bar for the night (or day, for you Fergie1). Wishing everyone a great weekend!

  • AdLib : About time to do that cloud seeding thing and force it to rain!

  • Fergie1 : I know Ad. I’me seeing the fires in Cali, even near my beloved SF. Awful. We’ve had about 100 fires burning in Victoria. But nice and cool today – Yipee!

  • AdLib : 3rd MRI Fergie? Hope you’re doing okay.

  • Fergie1 : Cheers Murph! SO good to see you here – you’re a wise man. Please take care and hope you weather the medical journey without too much worry. Me? Going for my third MRI on Tuesday!

  • AdLib : Keep cool, Fergie. We’re like a mirror image of Australia out here in Cali. Winter for us and it’s shorts weather.

  • AdLib : Night CL! Sleep well and have a lovely weekend!

  • Fergie1 : A very Good Night KT. Lively discussion for sure. Not sure I’ll be able to join you tomorrow. Lots to be done after a week of 109-111F temps in Melbourne and even with A/C, not much got done. Take care.

  • AdLib : Fergie1 – Nothing to feel bad about, we should have higher expectations for the world, especially once we learn first hand how many great, smart people there are out there and how much we have in common.

  • choicelady : I think I’m toddling off to bed, too. Long and busy week with more to come. Be well everyone! Good night!

  • choicelady : good night, Murph. Be and stay WELL. I’m sorry they couldn’t find what’s wrong, but if you’re living a good life, then maybe, just maybe, it doesn’t matter? You are SO in my heart!

  • AdLib : All the best back to you, Murph. Hope you have a good night’s sleep and a great weekend!

  • AdLib : Truly my pleasure, KT!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Just checking in and out – time for bed. Whoever is left….the best.

  • Fergie1 : Ad, that I did! And I am forever grateful. The down side, if there is one, is that I expect more of the world in which we live. I’m certainly no Pollyanna though!

  • KillgoreTrout : Hope to see you there Ad, and thank you again for your kind words regarding my poetry.

  • KillgoreTrout : Would love it CL.

  • AdLib : Night Killgore! See you over the weekend on the music thread!

  • choicelady : KT – good night! See you on the Music Thread tomorrow!

  • KillgoreTrout : Wow, quite a lively night here on VOX. I wish you all a great weekend, and thanks for some enlightening discussion. Take care folks!

  • choicelady : KT – the prominent people (Gabby Giffords?) do get the press, but the deaths are far more numerous than you’d know from MSM. It happens regularly to people of color, to Muslims, to liberals, to a many who take strong stands for democracy and justice.

  • choicelady : AdLib – luckily, we have no say in it all! But the local Egyptians here in Sacramento also seem hopeful. That’s all I can tell you.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I had not considered those, as I should have. I was thinking more along the lines of prominent political and social people, like MLK, JFK and RFK and Malcolm X.

  • AdLib : CL – I’ll wait and see on Egypt but I’m not sold right now that this is all going to turn out for the best.

  • choicelady : KT – actually a sixth person I knew, not well, was murdered here two years ago. He was Sikh and shot dead in the street probably taken to be a Muslim. I met him at their temple after some vandalism, and he said he was scared a lot. Then – his death showed he had reason. They never caught the shooter.

  • Fergie1 : Yes CL, I was very lucky and treasure how lucky I was. I have always said that if only everyone could have had that experience. I’m not sure that it even exists today. I have some wonderful memories and stories….too long for this forum.

  • choicelady : AdLib – most of the people in Egypt interviewed were pretty strong on how much hope they had now. I leave it to them.

  • AdLib : Fergie – Sounds like a fascinating childhood you had!

  • AdLib : CL – I’m not up on the details of Egypt’s Constitution but one problem with it is it allows Sisi, the head of the armed forces, to become President. Don’t know how good it is for Egypt to have another military leader holding the reins of power.

  • choicelady : KT – yes. I do. I have lost five friends to RW extremists. Think of the abortion providers, law enforcement, some of the shootings at synagogues and arsons. The folks in WV at the Unitarian church – gunned down by RW religious freaks.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, do you mean actual “murder?” Killings?

  • choicelady : Fergie – that’s the best kind of childhood! How lucky you were!

  • Fergie1 : That darn button I keep hitting too early…..a lot! Sorry. I’m very lucky to have had such a tolerant upbringing and having gone to schools on several Continents where there was a wonderful mix of people from all over. We all accepted each other and differences were never a topic of discussion. Character building was always the thought process….altho ugh cleverly, never mentioned!

  • choicelady : KT – we all do!

  • KillgoreTrout : OH, CL, i get it now. I have a little trouble keeping up with the pace of VOX sometimes.

  • choicelady : KT – we STILL have political murder from the Right. The extremists are growing in numbers, but it’s the ones you don’t see who are in quiet power that are the most scary.

  • choicelady : AdLib – the one good thing in Egypt is the constitution. I heard several very solid people say it is a very good, totally inclusive document. I hope it passes and that it works!

  • KillgoreTrout : There was a lot of silliness that came out of the counter culture, but there was a lot of greatly needed change that came about also. The 60s were ripe for social change. And don’t forget, we saw political murders and the constant threat of nuclear annhialation. Now wonder we got so crazy!

  • AdLib : Look at what’s happening in Egypt. First the Muslim Brotherhood extremists try to oppress the majority by forcing their religious doctrine on them then the anti-religious military take over and oppress the Muslim Brotherhood and anyone dissenting. Opposites in beliefs but extremists all and both have devastated the country.

  • choicelady : KT – The Dominionists who want to take over America and the world to usher in the End Times. We fight them tooth and nail to keep them from dominanting our institutions from education to the military. They will stop at NOTHING to gain total control and get a theocracy.

  • Fergie1 : Absolutly Ad….”extremis ts are the real evil.”

  • choicelady : AdLib – back in the 60s and 70s we had extremism on the Left, but I sure don’t see it now. So it’s ONLY the religious and non-religious right we need to fear. They are so freaking dangerous! Over the years they’ve been responsible for so much murder and mayhem, some of it touching me in big ways personally. We cannot let them win!

  • KillgoreTrout : Who is them CL, I think I missed something here.

  • Fergie1 : Yes CL, I’m a true ‘local’ and miss my Baghdad by the Bay very much. Luckily I’m in contact with my friends there on a regular basis. Sacramento – wow. Close – nice.

  • choicelady : KT – I am NOT them. In no way at all.

  • AdLib : I think we can all agree that extremists are the real evil. Whether religious, political, racial, it is those that radicalize their beliefs that pose the greatest threat to others or stand in the way of progress for the many.

  • KillgoreTrout : You are a brave lady CL.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I am DEFINTIELY cribbing your menu! Luscious!

  • KillgoreTrout : My pleasure CL. I enjoyed it thouroughly. A very smart guy, for sure.

  • choicelady : KT – I agree. I fight the religious right every day of my life. They hate us, and it’s SO BAD I have been stalked at home. We have security lights and cameras because they shined red laser lights on me from a tree half a block away then came around night after night doing acts of vandalism. I know who they are. The ringleader is known to me and showed up pretending to be a security installer demanding I let him put in a keypad with a microphone! He was NOT prepared for the fact I fought back and drove him off my porch. But it still continues – three years now. That’s why I never want THEIR corrupt beliefs ascribes to ME. I am not them in any way.

  • Fergie1 : Ha ha Ad! Unfortunately because of the time diff, we have to watch the Superbowl starting at 11 A M! And those snacks just don’t have the same draw at that time in the morning. So your darling daughter can enjoy them for us ( as well as the game?)!

  • AdLib : CL – My wife usually makes it a great spread. Last year we had some gourmet burgers and home made onion rings. Then the snacks included spinach and artichoke dip with jalepeno, homemade caramelized onion dip, sundried tomato dip, cheeses and crackers and chips. If I hadn’t eaten dinner shortly ago, I would be drooling now.

  • KillgoreTrout : Another great quote by Woody is “If faced with the choice between the pope and air conditioning, I’ll take air conditioning.”

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, that’s why I see orthodox religion as being very dangerous. Here’s a quote, and I can’t remember who to contribute it to, but it goes likes this. “Religion doesn’t corrupt men, men corrupt religion.”

  • choicelady : AdLib – there is no better reason to watch. What do you serve and can we all come over?

  • AdLib : Fergie – My 10 year old daughter only watches one football game each year, the Superbowl of course. Why? Because of the snacks we serve of course. Now if I served snacks for every game every Sunday, she would be a football fanatic!

  • choicelady : fergie – wow did not know you were ‘a local’! We consider my town, Sacramento, a suburb.

  • choicelady : KT – absolutely. He just fascinates me, and that lecture was awesome! Thank you for posting it!

  • Fergie1 : I have to get my “fix” of the USA. I never even watched the NFL until I was transferred to Australia by my company. Now I am fixated. And San Francisco is my home town, so…..!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, did you read my post about a wonderful lecture that was done by Neil DeGasse Tyson, about intelligent design? It’s wonderful.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I’m SO with Woody on that one!

  • AdLib : CL – That is the best way of describing those types, Old Testamentarians, not Christians. It is absurd how they rail against every value expressed by Jesus yet proudly and defiantly shout about how Christian they are. I’ve quoted this before, I’m sure you remember, but as Woody Allen wrote for a professor character in Hannah and Her Sisters, “If Jesus came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he’d never stop throwing up.”

  • choicelady : KT – it all depends on that third principle of ethics and morality, kindness and compassion. What one does with faith and science is up to the decency of the people applying it all.

  • choicelady : AdLib – that is what is so exciting about the quantum mechanics! It may explain all the things we now can’t, but IT can’t be explained at all yet. That’s why Newton, Bacon, and all the early scientists were in awe – it was both knowable and NOT.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I have to say, without science, we’d be fucked. But then again, some things that have come out of science are not all that good.

  • choicelady : Fergie – I’m hopeless with sports. I used to pay more attention when I lived in Chicago and was sort of a Cubs fan, but football never grabbed me. I like the CITIES of Seattle and San Francisco, so how could I root for one?

  • AdLib : CL – Yes, that is a false choice to say that it is either religion or science that is “right”. If religious beliefs inspire people to do wonderful and remarkable things, that’s just as “right” as the knowledge of science inspiring people to do wonderful and remarkable things…and just as wrong when those devotees to either do horrible things. The more one delves into the complexity of existence as science shows us, the more of a mystery the universe and existence is. And spirituality may seem separate from the concrete world but quantum mechanics argue that consciousness is intertwined with the concrete world. So maybe there can’t be a line drawn between the physical and spiritual…but no one can say for sure and no one will ever know for sure. That’s part of the mystery we’re all joined in.

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t know who he is, but I trust your take on it.

  • Fergie1 : Oh goodness CL! I’m in Australia and it’s the Patriots versus the Denver Broncos and the Seattle Seahawks versus the 49ers! I’m having a joke with you when I say ” goodness CL”!!

  • choicelady : KT – well, not people like Hagee. He’s so horrid there’s NOTHING funny about him!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, she IS comedy gold. As are a lot of the RWNJs.

  • choicelady : Fergie – oh gosh I forgot they were contending! I guess that’s good. Who are they playing?

  • choicelady : KT – the only reason I want her around is fodder for late night comedians.

  • Fergie1 : No surprise,I’m for the 49ers! But I have my doubts.

  • KillgoreTrout : LOL! Ah, gotta love that Sarah Palin, as all comdeians do!

  • choicelady : KT – the original ‘palm pilot’?

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, remember when Sarah had to write her “core values,” on the palm of her hand, for a debate? So much for the word “core.” in her case. ;)

  • choicelady : Fergie – so who’s playing? It’s very calming not to care.

  • Fergie1 : Ok, so who is going to win in the NFL Playoffs this weekend?

  • choicelady : AdLib – people such as Sarah Palin and most of the Dominionists know almost nothing about Christianity because they are NOT Christians. At their core they are Old Testamentarians for whom Jesus is just the ‘get out of jail free’ card they hope to play at death. They know NOTHING of their professed faith only rule they mostly made up to beat everyone else over the head with. That’s NOT what it was supposed to be about!

  • AdLib : KT – Well said!

  • AdLib : KT – I’m curious like that too. I think that many people here know more about religions than many of those who practice them avidly. I remember seeing a poll that showed people know so little about their own religion. Those who quest for knowledge can end up being more familiar with a religion then some of its followers. I think it is very constructive to learn about how and why people believe as they do but the trap to avoid is being judgmental…whi ch for all human beings who believe in something strongly that conflicts with the beliefs of others, is challenging to do.

  • choicelady : AdLib – when I got into a debate with Sam Harris (not knowing that is who it was until later) my contention was that humanity and morality and decency are a third issue – neither religion nor science could be THE answer. For the latter I have two words: Atom bomb. For religion – one word, the Inquisition. The capacity of humans to be both incredibly evil and transcendently uplifting is amazing. The quest for power shocks me because in equality and justice is such a profound better way. We cannot explain anyone’s choices, but there are options that do not fall into any one camp. It’s those we promote to the betterment we hope of the human species and the world around us.

  • KillgoreTrout : Right on Fergie!

  • KillgoreTrout : To me, it’s all about spirituality. And I’m not talking about any sort of afterlife, just the knowledge that we are all made of the same stuff, and we are all very small parts of a much, much larger whole. That belief is sure to engender respect and kindness toward each other. Something this world is in very short supply of.

  • Fergie1 : AdLib and Murph, agreed re personal beliefs. I don’t follow anything rigidly and it’s all a mystery. Live and let live and be grateful for those who try to make the world a better place either individually or on a larger scale if they have the where- with- all to do so.

  • AdLib : CL – We’ve seen through remarkable people like Jesus, Gandhi and Martin Luther King, that religious beliefs can inspire people to great love and enlightenment. We’ve also seen the Crusades and Al Qaeda, how religion can inspire people to perform terrible atrocities. It is always about the individual and how they use their minds, how they think and imagine. So whether it’s scientists who are atheists or avid churchgoers, those who find humanity and love through their beliefs are really much closer than they might imagine.

  • KillgoreTrout : I agree Ad. The only people I have a problem with are those who would try to force their beliefs upon me. I do find it fascinating to learn why people believe as they do. I don’t see my questions as posing any threat to one’s beliefs. My beliefs are not founded on any established truths.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Good night Sabreen…..

  • AdLib : Have a great weekend Sabreen!

  • Fergie1 : Good Night Sabreen. Take care. Nice to see you here this evening.

  • AdLib : KT – Agreed, it does require a degree of diplomatic skill to be able to both show respect to others who have different beliefs while expressing one’s arguments for why one believes as one does. I think the best approach is an affirmative one, describing why one has come to believe what they do. The most problematic would seem to be trying to disqualify the beliefs of others. It’s a Golden Rule thing I think, one wouldn’t be receptive to another being dismissive of their beliefs so there’s nothing to be gained by taking that approach towards another.

  • choicelady : Good night Sabreen lovely having you here!

  • choicelady : AdLib – I did hear about that part that privatization had to GO. I hope he can do that. Private corporations at the airports, doing national security, prisons – horrific. These functions are CIVIC responsibilities that must be performed by those sworn to uphold the constitution. And private firms escape that obligation. VERY dangerous. I also hate first class passengers getting preference in airport screening – this is where we are all equal and civic duty is to be all the same. NO PREFERENTIAL treatments!

  • KillgoreTrout : Take care Sabreen. Have a wonderful weekend. Hope to see your wonderful contributions to the weekend music thread.

  • Sabreen60 : I look forward to our Friday night chats! Hope to see you next week. Night all!

  • choicelady : AdLib – that is actually our whole view – the commonality of justice and inclusion. It matters not where it comes from. There was a scientific discussion about how scientists themselves believe so many unprovable things that the common denominator among them is awe at the marvel of it all. THAT is what we believe – we don’t and can’t know anything but what science proves, but we can be moved to act for justice and kindness. One does not need a supreme being to be a good person AND one can believe in a supreme being and ALSO be a good person. I tend to NOT believe but do think we are not individually the ultimate ‘good’. It is how we come together to act for betterment of the world that is transcendent.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – I can’t say I’m happy with Obama’s NSA speech though I do like some of the reforms he outlined. For the most part though, there were so many conditionals put on many of the most important potential reforms that I’m not sure how real they are. They may be but it’s hard to tell. As for those that were more definitive, like having a non-governmental party hold the metadata and require court orders for the government to access it, that’s a positive step forward.

  • KillgoreTrout : Take care Smot. I sincerely hope you get your hearing back.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, That was my first reaction. He’s looking for balance, which means everyone on the end of either extremes will be pissed off. Good!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…your philosophy of religious experience is one with which I agree.

  • KillgoreTrout : I understand Ad. The topic of religion, faith, personal gods or no, is often seen as socially taboo. It don’t think it should be, as long as people are respectful and don’t easily take offense. It’s a touchy subject, and probably always will be.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, I heard Rachel’s announcement. I set my DVR. I can’t remember the specifics. I know it’s a woman who is suppose to have additional knowledge.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen- I think Obama is threading his way between two diametrically opposed positions- the civil libertarians and the national security zealots….he represented a compromise position which means both hated it, but not a whole hell of a lot….

  • AdLib : Murph – Personally, I see the beliefs of many people in and out of popular religions, including atheists, as having a lot of common ground in the fascination and wonder at existence. No one can tell me what is in the place where the universe expands to or what was where before the universe came into existence. There are primal questions that transcend linear thought, we can’t necessarily ever have absolute proof of that which can’t be proven so we are part of the mystery that is existence…whil e we ponder on what the meaning and nature of it is.

  • choicelady : Murph – that’s freaking 5 am in CA! I think I will wait for the reruns!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, I often think that if there is indeed a Hell, it might just be living in this world, but then again, there are some very heavenly aspects to this life. Ah, the duality of existence.!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT…. Rachel announced tonight that Steve Kornacki will be featuring a major Christie scoop on his show tomorrow morning. 7 AM CST. Anyone heard about this.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I did not hear it or read it yet. I’m slow catching up.

  • choicelady : Murph – that makes me laugh because I left the church when it would not ordain women. I loved they did but then met two harridans that made me GLAD I’d left! I would like your priest and bishop a lot. I’m also crazy about their passionate commitment as an institution to marriage and LGBT equality. It’s changed – but I still belong to no church at all anymore.

  • Sabreen60 : Well it’s after midnight. I did want to hear your opinions on PBO’s NSA speech. So if anyone wants to comment I’ll try to hang around for a little while.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ha Cl, I love that line…”deliver me from those that found it.” I feel the very same way.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…I will pass that along. She is a wonderful person….our presiding bishop is a woman physicist/astron omer…the two of them are convincing me that all churches should be led by women.

  • AdLib : KT – I understand. It’s just like a law of science, like chemistry, how elements react when mixed. The moment one characterizes the belief of another, it transforms the conversation into a different direction. I’m all for discussing religion and any other topic but I try to keep the conversations from being knocked off course to where anyone feels they are aimed at them.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I so agree! The natural world is both beautiful and brutal. But it’s not mean. That’s reserved for people. What my mission is is to try to end that for those being prey to the powerful.

  • Sabreen60 : Good night Smot. Take care.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – late night dyslexia of the fingers. Common problem.

  • choicelady : Murph – I will send her my fave T-shirt: Bring me into the company of those searching for the truth – and deliver me from those who’ve FOUND it!

  • Sabreen60 : I keep using “their” when I should be using “there”.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Smot…take care….thanks for your kind words.

  • Sabreen60 : Yeah, CL that’s what I mean. I’m probably alone with this belief. Their is a comment in the Qu’ran that says to the believer this is hell. I think what that means is that their is so much saddness; misery that it painful for people who have a heart. But for me it’s more than that. I don’t like that deer get eaten by wolves. Or that wolves have to kill deer in order to survive. I don’t’ like the concept of life and death.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib. I defer to the Dalai Lama and to my 59 year old woman priest pastor who repeating makes the statement in my very contentious parish- “All faith is about a search for the light that guides us and the word that speaks of truth.”

  • choicelady : Night Smot – sleep well.

  • Fergie1 : Exactly Murph and the Dalai Lama!

  • SmotPoker : My PC or the site is not putting my comments up each time. I’m calling it a night kids.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I think we’ve been pretty civil here. We are just exchanging ideas. I certainly have no malice toward anybody here for their beliefs and ideas.

  • Fergie1 : Smot, now really. When you say on a forum that:….” I believe that religion is nothing more than BS designed to control the masses.” You are belittling others beliefs. Unacceptable. I respect whatever belief system you have, but I draw the line at mine being described as BS.

  • choicelady : AdLib – cool.

  • choicelady : KT – OK.

  • AdLib : Folks, we have had discussions over religion, sometimes it’s fascinating, other times it becomes a bit too personally-aimed . I would like to just propose that everyone stipulate that there is no definitive statement any of us could make to convince another out of their personal views and if there can’t be such definitive proof, it’s okay that we have different views and not necessary that anyone else’s views need be disqualified for our views to remain valid to us. Cool?

  • KillgoreTrout : I know you didn’t. I’m just trying to say that it’s a good thing to have one’s heart in the right “place.” Nothing to be offended over.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, ROTFMAO! You made my night. See it doesn’t take much. Thanks a ton!

  • choicelady : Murph – indeed. That IS my point.

  • choicelady : KT – never said it wasn’t.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : “The whole purpose of religion is to facilitate love and compassion, patience, tolerance, humility, and forgiveness.” The Dalai Lama

  • KillgoreTrout : I would like to think MY heart is in the right place.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – if you can find the YouTube of Iris Dement’s song on “Let the Mystery Be” it’s hilarious. It’s a discussion of what comes ‘after’ – and it’s just wonderful!

  • SmotPoker : I don’t believe that KT was trying to malicious or offensive. It struck me as a reasonable tone.

  • choicelady : Smot – I thought you weren’t going to discuss it?

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, it was certainly NOT meant to be patronizing. I admire your open mindedness.

  • SmotPoker : If you can’t explain why it was offensive to you then perhaps you were wrong to take offense? Just saying.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – you mean like life?

  • choicelady : Murph – thanks for the link. I think that’s priceless!

  • choicelady : KT – guess I can’t explain it.

  • Sabreen60 : All I know is I don’t want to come back this way again. Really, I don’t like the whole setup. Predator and prey. Not knowing when you’re going to kick and what happens after you kick. Nah. Once is enough for me.

  • KillgoreTrout : Why?

  • choicelady : KT – it’s patronizing.

  • KillgoreTrout : It was meant as a compliment.

  • choicelady : KT – I can talk about beliefs in god without believing in god. I’m discussing how many people see the universe not how I do personally.

  • SmotPoker : I think some people on here are very quick to take offense over slights real and imagined. Come on folks.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, why?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen…puttin g on the ritz… «link»

  • choicelady : KT – I find your line ‘your heart is in the right place’ very demeaning.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well CL you DO make references to god. Maybe, in your case it’s just a word to describe the indescribable. Nothing wrong with that.

  • Fergie1 : Whoa! I’m taking a power break! Back shortly.

  • SmotPoker : CL – Now that is where you made a leap that was wrong. I never stated your belief was WRONG. Who the hell am I to tell you that what you believe is wrong. I never stated what you believe is wrong, only that I believe that religion is nothing more than BS designed to control the masses. I never stated your belief was wrong. Why are these post taking so long to post?

  • choicelady : KT – your believe in Tao is precisely what you should believe because you believe it.

  • choicelady : KT- go back and read. I don’t know if there is a Supreme Being or even an imp. Stop reading things into what I write.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I think you are a very open minded person, but you seem to take the position that there is a supreme being. Maybe I am wrong about this. I am a Taoist as you well know and the Tao Te Ching says that everything was created by the Tao, yet, at the same time, says that the Tao is unknowable. So my beliefs are just as unsubstantiated as anyone else’s, I’m sure. My belief in the Tao just makes more sense to me than some supernatural being. I truly believe your heart is in the right place.

  • Sabreen60 : I’m telling you Murph, I was on the floor!

  • choicelady : Mruph – the only thing about Festivus is it’s so damned hard to decorate that pole!

  • Fergie1 : Ad……:)

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…Festivus for the rest of us…George’s Dad’s great inspiration.

  • choicelady : AdLib – we include Festivus in all our ideas.

  • choicelady : Murph – ‘singing’ might be kind…

  • Sabreen60 : I meant Frankenstein’s monster.

  • AdLib : So am I the only one here who believes in Festivus?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen….Peter Boyle singing “Putting on the Ritz”

  • choicelady : Sabreen – that was over the top and incredibly funny, yes!

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, The first time I saw that movie when Frankenstein started to sing, I was on the floor. :D

  • choicelady : Smot I have no idea what you believe, but I object to your telling me what I believe. It’s incorrect.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen….Where ? Where? (sorry, channeling Young Frankenstein) but I thank you for the huzzah!

  • choicelady : Murph – I would agree too!

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – Indeed as you may or may not have noticed ever since a couple of weeks ago I tend to keep my views on religious to myself with tonight be an exception. I get it.

  • choicelady : KT – I am saying I don’t believe in that idea that the religious right propagates. I do NOT believe it. And I have no idea if there is a god – but I also don’t care one way or the other.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph: Hear! Hear!

  • AdLib : Smot – Exactly, at The Planet where no topic is off limits, it can be challenging to keep some conversations on the most powerful topics from spiraling out into the realm of personalizing and that’s the trap, that’s what kills conversation and free expression. We absolutely want everyone here to feel free to disagree when they do but we do seek to keep the conversation on the issues, not to personalize them or make critical comments about others.

  • Fergie1 : I’m with you Murph. The operative word being “respect”. I have my own beliefs but respect all others and have no desire to push my beliefs on to someone else. I’m happy with mine and wish the same for everyone one else.

  • SmotPoker : Religious beliefs are quite personal so people tend to take a dim view when you don’t agree with them or state that you find it ridiculous I get that. I do try to avoid such things, but I am human after all. When I cross the line I do attempt to make it right.

  • KillgoreTrout : Here is one..predisposit ions, but God is NOT a cranky Santa…

  • MurphTheSurf3 : AND I am a Christian Humanist who is affiliated with the Episcopal Church because I like having women as my priests and maintain an enduring association with Buddhist life principles.

  • choicelady : KT – what references to God?

  • Sabreen60 : Well I’m kinda with CL. I do not belong to organized religion. But I don’t believe “man” created all this. This universe and all the universes came from somewhere. Belief is a matter of faith. I want to believe that there must be a method to this madness.

  • SmotPoker : I look at the fossil records and what we do know and I see a huge spike in the human mind and spirit within a very short length of time comparable to how things have usually progressed. It gives pause to thought.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I guess what I’m getting at is do you believe in a supreme being? And if not, why so many references to god? I am truly confused here.

  • choicelady : Smot – so long as you don’t embrace the arrival of the Six foot metal munching moon mice – the old Rocky and Bullwinkle plot propagated by Sister Claire in her cult – we’re good.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : For Smot, CL, et. al…..In a mature discussion it is possible to adamantly disagree without becoming disagreeable…. this is one of the reasons I really like the Planet….solid, strong, and often at-odds public dialogue among peers who respect differences.

  • choicelady : AdLib – exactly.

  • SmotPoker : As for me, I’m more inclined to believe that life was seeded here on this planet by advanced alien life forms. Now who here doesn’t think that is nutty hmmm? It’s not a popular mainstream thought.

  • choicelady : KT – NO I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A GOD THAT CONTROLS OUR LIVES. I have said this to you for YEARS. We have free will totally. We are part of a natural world with genetic predispositions, but God is NOT a cranky Santa Claus. We control our own lives. Do not believe in Satan either. People don’t need the help – they’re nasty enough on their own. But there may be things in quantum physics that tells us a lot about our ability to think collectively and cooperatively – spooky action at a distance is the most mind blowing discovery EVER about how things in the universe are linked. That’s not about supreme beings. It’s about consciousness and connectivity.

  • SmotPoker : You are right AdLib. We won’t all agree on everything but we don’t have to argue on everything we don’t agree about either.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen…thanks , that pretty much sums it up.

  • Fergie1 : Right on Ad!

  • SmotPoker : I stated that we disagreed, and where he could find some more info on your beliefs. As far as I’m concerned it’s water under the bridge.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, You sound like a fighter! Just stay strong and keep fighting.

  • SmotPoker : That’s just it, I didn’t raise the issue tonight CL, I was trying to save you some time typing. If that upsets you I apologize.

  • AdLib : May I just interject that it’s probably best and most respectful not to characterize other people’s views but instead to represent one’s own’s views, whether it’s agreeing or disagreeing.

  • SmotPoker : If you truly want my honest opinion I think your beliefs are a bit on the weird side but not offensive to me personally. I don’t fault you for it, I accept it.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…I was getting a lot more irritated about the testing than the symptoms….so I am back on my old regime. They want me to do a sleep study….somethi ng no one ever fails….time to take a break from tests.

  • choicelady : Smot – this is not Twitter. If you raise issues, you will get a response you cannot block. We respect one another, we don’t turn ’em in! LOL!!

  • choicelady : Smot – WHAT dogma. That’s where you’re wrong. And that’s where YOU become dogmatic. We don’t embrace any kind of absolutism. YOU do.

  • KillgoreTrout : So CL, you do believe in a god that controls our lives? I’m not faulting you for that, I am just confused because you say you don’t believe in the blind watch maker and you don’t believe in a god that interacts with us? Maybe you don’t need a name for it, but it does confuse me.

  • SmotPoker : It could very well be said that my intolerance of religion is no better than their intolerance of things I hold dear. I accept that.

  • choicelady : Murph – wow, that’s unnerving. I am so in awe of how well you do in keeping it at bay.

  • SmotPoker : Religious dogma is religious dogma be it from the left or the right. I don’t care for it from either side. Once again, I’m not here to argue belief systems or who is right or wrong in their beliefs.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : smot….manageab le right now and perhaps for a very long while….the docs panicked I think….their concern but I think an over reaction.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – luckily it’s not serious.

  • Fergie1 : Exactly Ad! A truer word was never spoken re PBO being elected. And those progressives are just hurting the cause of getting another Dem elected in 2016 if they keep bashing PBO. I consider myself a progressive pragmatist!

  • Sabreen60 : CL, Do you really? WOW! I had never heard of the disease until my sister was diagnosed.

  • choicelady : Smot – your interpretation of what I think was wrong. It’s your view of what I think not MY view. So of course I don’t like it. You’re importing your understanding of the religious right onto the not religious faith people on the progressive side. It’s a major error of people who don’t pay attention to the vast difference between the Right and the Left.

  • AdLib : CL – It’s that EmoProg mentality of All or Nothing. If Obama or Dems don’t pass their absolutist test, if single payer isn’t passed then they’ll throw a tantrum and say nothing should be passed until that is. Wrong, that isn’t the way things work in American History. SS only covered a section of the population, same with Medicare when it was first launched. Change comes as evolution, not falling out of the sky fully formed.

  • SmotPoker : That sounds awful Murph

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen- My hematologist believes that my problem has to do with a disorder in my bone marrow that is genetic. As I get older the symptoms resulting from the disorder are more apparent.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I have Hashimoto’s!

  • SmotPoker : KT – Not to speak for CL or anything but if you scroll through the Off Topic post from a couple of weeks ago she let loose with a long diatribe about her belief system and my lack of respect for what I consider intellectual laziness of the religious minded. I think it would go a long way towards explaining her believe system, if you wanted to get a look at it without her having to retype everything. Just trying to be helpful, not confrontational here.

  • choicelady : KT – no , the questions don’t bother me, but it’s a very long answer. It begins with following the long history of social justice that runs through even the early tribalism of the OT and into the new. It is not predicated on personal salvation which Protestants and I personally don’t care about. It’s not pleasing an angry god. It’s about creating a world of justice based in large part on the later teachings of Jesus but on all prophets. It’s about selflessness and universality, seeing right done for all people. Inclusion, and universal equality for everyone, no exception. It’s seeing god as the life force of good, the collective consciousness and conscience of mature and open minded people. Those are the foundational precepts.

  • AdLib : Ferige1 – And BTW, I do agree, we are very lucky that Obama was our President in 2009. Had it been any other recent President at that time, either Bush, Clinton or Reagan, we would be in hell right now. No one’s perfect and I don’t think Obama is but it’s hard to imagine what this country would be like right ow if he hadn’t been elected.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, I’m sure you shared this before, but I missed it. My sister has Hashimoto’s disease. She didn’t require the extensive iron treatments that you have had to endure.

  • Fergie1 : Agreed AdLib. And the expectation that this will change in the next couple of decades is that it is just not going to happen.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL,I’m still confused as to what you actually believe. If my questions bother you, I will not ask them any longer.

  • AdLib : Fergie1 – I think the biggest problem with the American electorate is that they have no long term memory and no sense of long term planning. Elections are always about the short term and because of that, the wealthy who plan long term, often thwart the other 99%.

  • choicelady : KT – it also include quantum physics.’

  • choicelady : KT – you ought to know me by now. It’s too long to go into. It includes Tao.

  • choicelady : AdLib – let someone say they’re for single payer and all else falls by the way. The mantle of ‘progressive’ falls upon his shoulders.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, what exactly do you believe, if you don’t mind me asking?

  • AdLib : Sabreen – Yes, I heard that and it was disgusting. How is that possible, to be racist and run as a Progressive? He’s an idiot.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – the only good thing Brian has done is… I’m thinking.

  • Fergie1 : Wel you know folks that the American electorate is a minefield. There is apathy, then critcism, then Monday morning quarterbacks. No one is perfect but America will not elect a candidate who is “way out there” and fulfills everyone’s dreams and wishes. It’s the way of the world. Yes, hold politicans accountable, but advisable not to tear all to shreads in the hope of Nirvana happening anytime soon. We were fortunate that PBO was elected in the first place.

  • choicelady : KT – the impersonal clock maker is impersonal. Arid. Why does ANYONE need some entity directing life. YOU don’t. Most of us don’t. At least God could be conceived as having a sense of humor. The Clock Maker – not so much.

  • SmotPoker : In a perfect world every belief would also come with a certain amount of flexibility and openness to change, unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world so it tends to be rigid, and stuck.

  • AdLib : So what do you think Obama will say in his State of the Union speech? BTW, as usual, we will be hosting a live chat (like Vox) during Obama’s SOTU speech.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen…yes, I have chronic anemia..no idea why. I get an intensive dextran infusion once every 9 to 12 months. 16 hours. Two full days. I take iron supplements as well and have to keep my hydration levels up.

  • KillgoreTrout : Smot, may the Tao be with you! ;)

  • choicelady : AdLib – if Schweitzer were any kind of governor he could HAVE single payer as they do in VT. They never came up with a plan. That’s HIS bad. We had a total of 85 votes for single payer in 2010 and needed 278 to consider HR 676. That’s our bad. So he, a guy who stand with Wane La Pierre, is a total idiot for saying PBO is his problem. HE is his OWN problem. If they could do it in VT, they could have done in in MT. He dropped the ball.

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, Brian said the only thing good PBO has done is historically being the first black president.

  • SmotPoker : If I ever get this choking people with my mind down pat or at least be able to move a cigarette with nothing but the force….

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, then I misread your comment. I’m confused though, what is “arid,” about deism?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Thanks Fergie. Thanks ALL for your support and the Planetary Vibes….I will keep you informed.

  • Sabreen60 : In addition CL, it’s offensive. It’s saying that black people don’t know the issues. We simply vote on race, which as you say is ridiculous.

  • choicelady : KT – Nope. I don’t and you know it. I find deism arid, fudie extremism oppressive, and open minds the only way to go. Why would I want a big clock maker any more than a creepy bearded dude with a check off list?

  • AdLib : CL – I don’t know who that would be, it definitely won’t be Brian Schweitzer who’s trying to take that mantle by doing a 100% diss on Obama. He said he couldn’t list one good thing Obama has done as President…that ‘s how he plans to run to the Left, as an EmoProg. Yeah, good luck with that, weasel.

  • SmotPoker : since I got my Jedi Robe I accepted the Force as my savior…

  • choicelady : Murph – that’s one place where no progress is a GOOD thing. I’m glad.

  • KillgoreTrout : Arid? Do believe there’s a supreme being controlling your life at every turn? Maybe I misread your comment.

  • Fergie1 : Ha ha Murph….I like that! It’s part of my MO!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- Manageable and it may well be that my condition is no different today than it was when I was diagnosed-

  • choicelady : AdLib – when the Right sneer at Black people for supporting Obama saying they ‘vote race’ my rejoinder is if that were true, West, Keyes, and Blackman would be KINGS. POLICY matters.

  • KillgoreTrout : True Smot. That would never hold with the control freaks.

  • Fergie1 : Dang Murph….hit send button too early! This adding on the years can really suck!

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, Are you anemic? My sister is and has to get iron shots. Not as often as she use to. Now it’s about 1 every 3 mos. At first it was once every other week. She also has a thyroid condition.

  • AdLib : Cl – Right with you on that. Mindlessly supporting all candidates who are women/black/Lati no/etc. is not Progressive. It should always be about the individual, not what group they fall into.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Fergie! Good to see ya!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Greetings fergie….shadow dwelling gives one options.

  • choicelady : KT – because it’s so fucking arid, that’s why. It’s as bad as the Cranky Santa Claus – old man watching every move you make. Stupid either way.

  • Fergie1 : Murph…..wishin g you all the best as the journey continues.

  • SmotPoker : KT- Then how in the world are they to hold their smug moral high ground superiority? Huh? Come on man…lol

  • choicelady : Murph – so this is manageable? I surely hope so.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi Fergie!

  • KillgoreTrout : Geez, why can’t people just agree to be deists? They can still harbor their creation fantasies, and still butt out of other people’s lives!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : My basic symptom has been shortness of breath…I have returned to my regular exercise and conditioning routine….and the shortness is less….I think it was the delay in getting my iron infusion and then the panic by docs when my blood levels did not return to level quickly enough.

  • choicelady : Hi Fergie!

  • choicelady : AdLib – but WHO? I’m not all that fond of Bernie – he’s a turncoat – and can’t figure out who would be progressive.

  • AdLib : Hey Fergie1!

  • Fergie1 : Hi all. Just came on board and trying to catch up on the latest conversation. Murph, you have a great turn of phrase : ” standing in the shadows……”. Maybe too much catch up here with the Hillary/PBO/BC picking apart!

  • AdLib : I think it will be critical to have a solid Progressive running against Hillary in the primary, to force her to confront specifics of Progressive policy. Of course she could say one thing during the primaries than scoot over to the middle or middle-right in the GE but I think it’s important to get her on record on Progressive issues.

  • choicelady : PPO – LOL!!!! Everything is retribution for gay marriage in their book!

  • pinkpantheroz : Murph, if you read earlier posts, you’ll see that the Seventh Day Bush Paptist Mormon Happy Clappy Church of Whoknowswhat says that the Ca. firs are retribution for gay marriage and other insanities!

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, I know that can be really frustrating when a diagnosis can not be made.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I never give to Emily’s List because IT SO DEPENDS ON THE WOMAN.

  • SmotPoker : I feel for you Murph a lot of bad news going around for folks lately.

  • AdLib : Murph – That’s not great news. No conclusions about what’s causing your condition? Damn…

  • choicelady : Murph – NOTHING? Wow. Now what besides keeping on keeping on? How are you feeling?

  • KillgoreTrout : I agree Sabreen. I think what many of us forget is that PBO IS a politician, first and foremost. At least he is an open minded one, but he still has to “play the game,” to an extent, just like Clinton did.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I fear her conservatism a lot.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello KT….and I guess ALL…thanks for the Health Question…AFTER ALL OF THOSE TESTS…..nothin g, nada, zilch, zero…..so “we are monitoring the symptoms”….I am ust getting on with life.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I keep forgetting that W may have been ‘the decider’ but Cheney was the ‘decider in chief’! When he had that heart pump that removed his PULSE, my only reaction was – who would notice?

  • SmotPoker : And I say that with nothing but good humor behind it.

  • SmotPoker : CL- It’s a miracle! LOL

  • AdLib : CL – That’s the real nightmare, isn’t it? Dems could be so thrilled with electing Hillary as the first woman President and having her thrash the Repubs…that they may not recognize what policies she would actually bring with her into the WH. She didn’t run as a Progressive in 2008, she was a war hawk.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Pink….I have the same MO on these nights. I like standing in the shadow until something comes along that gets me animated.

  • choicelady : Smot – I totally agree with that.

  • SmotPoker : No concerns means no grey hairs sprouting from the pressures of the office.

  • Sabreen60 : Well come on CL. W took vacations more than he was in the WH. Plus he didn’t have to make decisions with Cheney around.

  • choicelady : Murph – you’re a brave man dealing with the Southern mind and keeping your patience.

  • SmotPoker : Probably because W was just a frat boy having fun not really concerned with the job at hand.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- climate change? what are you some kind of atheist…God is Control as my Southern Baptist neighbors remind me.

  • choicelady : PPO – right on. Right meaning ‘correct’ of course.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I think that’s true though W didn’t look all that bad.

  • pinkpantheroz : CL, there’s no need today, hooray! 80 only and dry. But someone mentioned climate change. Anyone who doesn’t think that, for whatever reason, the weather and climate patterns are changing, are off their fundamentalist noggins.

  • KillgoreTrout : I still think people are failing to appreciate how tough an issue DADT was, at the time. Today, gays in the military is no big deal. That was not the case in the 90s. Again, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this. is no big deal

  • Sabreen60 : KT, It seems being the actual President gives one a different perspective on many issues than one has sitting on the sidelines throwing punches. Guess that’s what causes all the gray hair.

  • SmotPoker : I believe that a Hilary term would be similar to yet another status quo preservationist agenda. Like I said, our government and those that are elected have long ago abdicated their responsibilities to the people, and the Constitution for their love of money and power.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think her corporate ties are her strength politically with fund sources. I think I really want to know BIG TIME if she has broken with the religious right and Doug Coe of C Street who was her personal pastor for years. I don’t trust her.

  • choicelady : PPO – and here I thought you were running in and out of air conditioning!

  • AdLib : SO what do we think Hillary Clinton would do if elected President? Would she maintain the Clinton coziness with corporatism and allow the economic divide to widen further between the 1% and the 99% or would the populist sensibility in the country today push her towards more of an economic justice position?

  • choicelady : Murph – but there’s no climate change, right?

  • pinkpantheroz : Nah, Murph. I’m in and out in short bursts, mainly because I don’t have a dog in the current hunt, and anyway I need the occasional gasper!

  • choicelady : Sabreen – cool. United front and all.

  • choicelady : KT – I’m not blaming Clinton for his reticence on gay marriage but for his slovenly way of creating DADT. He did more harm than good. As one picking up the pieces of victims of that, I know he could have done BETTER.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello Ad Lib…

  • Sabreen60 : No CL, I’m still here.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi there Sabreen and Choice…lots of snow here, then very cold, then a defrost, then some more snow, then cold, getting warmer tomorrow….

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Murph! How are you these days? Feeling better I hope.

  • KillgoreTrout : PBO stated in his book The Audacity of Hope, his reasons for being against gay marriage. I think it is a compliment to him for changing his mind. But he wrote that book before he became president, and I don’t think that was a miscalculation. I think that’s how he really felt. So how can I blame Clinton for anything less?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi panther…..look s like folks are leaving just as I came in the door…something I said?

  • Sabreen60 : Hiya Murph!

  • AdLib : Hey Murph!

  • choicelady : Murph! Great to see you! Are you OK after all the storms and then flooding?

  • pinkpantheroz : Hey there Murph! Welcome.

  • SmotPoker : Hard to say KT with all the issues he had going on with WH BJ’s and what not he was somewhat limited in his power. Perhaps if he wasn’t fighting for his political life, he could have devoted much more energy to getting the coalition together to do it right on the DADT nonsense. Equality for all.

  • choicelady : Sabreen? You’re not leaving yet are you?

  • AdLib : Sabreen – I agree, the shrill voices on the Left insisting Obama use an EO on DADT instead of letting it be decided in the courts, where it should have been, were annoying and just plain wrong. Had Obama used an EO to declare DADT null and void, it would have been overrun as an issue about Executive Power and Obama forcing his will on the country. He handled that the right way and the proof of that is DADT is dead and Repubs aren’t saying a word about bringing it back.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello all

  • choicelady : KT – It was part of a package. He did not have to sign it or do it as it came – he could have given far more protection to LGBT people than he did. NO one was protected by that, and harassment went UP after that. He should have thought it through better. He always caved. Always.

  • KillgoreTrout : Good night glenn, and Sabreen.

  • pinkpantheroz : G’night glenn. Sleep the sleep of the righteous!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, you are ignoring the poltics behind this. At the time, gays in the military was a real third rail. You could accuse Clinton of political cowardess, but I really don’t think he could have gotten anything more progressive done, considering the times.

  • choicelady : I’m sorry I missed glenn!

  • Sabreen60 : Good night, glenn. Take care.

  • choicelady : AdLib – it’s why I detest Robert Reich. He sold out unions, embraced NAFTA, and now acts like he has all the answers. When, at a meeting I attended, he was asked if the Mondragon Cooperative model would help stabilize jobs and self sufficiency he did NOT even know what it WAS. He is a phony self promoter.

  • Sabreen60 : Kt, Not being able to read PBO’s mind, I for one don’t know why he changed his mind. It could have been political or it could have been like many of us who came to understand that equality has to be for everyone and not just some.

  • AdLib : Night glenn, sleep well!

  • KillgoreTrout : I agree Sabreen. But that just goes to show how hot an issue it was. A real political third rail.

  • choicelady : KT – I understand what you’re saying but from Lani Gunier on, he caved on every single hot topic. I really like him as a person, but he was weak and let the Right get the hold it’s got.

  • AdLib : KT – I don’t know about Bill Clinton. He did so many more things via his policy of triangulation that promoted Republican policies over Progressive policies, it’s hard for me to give him a pass on DADT…in addition to killing Glass-Steagal, Welfare reform, NAFTA, etc. In the end, he did help cause the decline of union and higher wage blue collar jobs and manufacturing in the US, he set up the financial crash in 2008 and his DADT perpetuated prejudice. Not such a Progressive President and kind of destructive IMO.

  • SmotPoker : See ya round Glenn take care.

  • glenn : All– I cannot keep my eyes open any longer, so I will wish you all a good night and a good weekend. Take care, and I hope to see everyone around the Planet.

  • SmotPoker : EO’s are a temporary fix to a permanent problem. They are never the true answer.

  • KillgoreTrout : I disagree CL. It was never in his powers to prosecute anybody who asked. Yes I know he was the CIC, but those matters never reach that high. Clinton was basically saying, we’ll put this off until another time. He would have never been able to do anything further under the congress he had to work with. As I said, attitudes now are vastly different than they were then. It took Obama several years to change his stance on gay marriage. Why do you think that was?

  • choicelady : Sabreen – spot on. Working carefully to assure that the LAW is in place on hot button issues has worked out amazingly well. Yup – an EO is a privilege NOT a right.

  • choicelady : AdLib – Barbara is the real Machiavelli of the family!

  • Sabreen60 : Kt, I think I agree with you about DADT. I don’t think the public or the military was ready under Clinton. However, I remember some on the left giving PBO a fit because he would not sign an EO to end DADT – not understanding that the next President could just undo the EO. He went the route of Congress to repeal the law, which was the right way to go.

  • choicelady : Beatlex – how, as a victim of the Right, could Clinton NOT have known? I supported him through the entire Lewinsky mess, but he could NOT be that naïve after what they did to him.

  • AdLib : OT but Nirek mentioned and I replied to his comment about Barbara Bush making a big deal in the press about not wanting Jeb to run. For the record, this is the second time she has put out press releases and comments on this. And coincidentally, she’s done it right when the would-be moderate front runner, Christie, is in trouble. I don’t buy her phony complaint for a moment, she’s trying to promote him in the minds of Repubs as the Christie replacement. She is straight up evil.

  • Beatlex : AdLib,I am not protecting or condoning what he did.I am just saying I don’t think he really grasped what the right would do with it when Bush took over

  • choicelady : KT – Of course he’s to blame for DADT. Even if he thought it was the best he could do, it did nothing at all to help. He could have actually prosecuted those who ASKED. He sold out.

  • SmotPoker : I’m just not here to argue. Carry on.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I don’t fault Clinton for DADT. I think at the time, that was the best he could get away with. The whole nation’s attitude about LBGT community has changed drasticly since then Well, except for the religious fanatics.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – that’s exactly the issue. Most of the hype on the Emo side is based on rumors not facts. Totally agree.

  • SmotPoker : Then stop directing your questions at me please.

  • choicelady : Smot – it’s not your call. All of us here are talking. We can carry on if we like. You can or not as you choose.

  • choicelady : Smot – that’s sort of a cop out since you’re making assertions that you cannot back up. I’m open to facts. I’m just not seeing them.

  • Sabreen60 : Cl, Absolutely. The rumor-mill on the left started the whole Summers thing. PBO NEVER came out and said he wanted Summers. I can’t count the times some on the left have set their hair on hair on fire BEFORE having all the facts.

  • SmotPoker : I’m done with it CL. Move on.

  • choicelady : Smot – unconstitutional HOW. Some judges are ruling in its favor. Others not. It’s not a clear cut issue. He is abiding by the SCOTUS standards WE got in place in 2007 court and Congressional rulings. How is it not constitutional since NO ONE is being listened to, hacked, or anything. That happened to me in 2003 with the resulting FBI ‘chase’ afterwards. I damn well know the difference between anonymous metadata and hacking. I KNOW this for a fact.

  • Beatlex : Yes,but i don’t think he really grasped that it would lead to the disaster in the making

  • AdLib : Beatlex – Bill Clinton has always been a corporatist, between his killing of Glass-Steagall and passing NAFTA, he really devastated economic fairness in this country. I wasn’t crazy about him when he was President and if I made a list of all he did that I didn’t like (add Welfare Reform and DADT to the list), he really was an anti-Progressive President.

  • SmotPoker : Like I said, I’m not here to argue the merits of the Obama presidency. You are free to believe he is a saint if you wish, I choose to believe otherwise. Is he evil? No, not by a long shot, and he is certainly a cut above anything the RW has to offer. Simple as that.

  • choicelady : Beatlex – Clinton WANTED that to happen. He bought the globalization mantra and believed it all. PBO does not and is not.

  • choicelady : Smot – PBO never wanted Summers. He gave him the courtesy of a hearing, and you have only rumors to insist otherwise. He ran the votes – he knew Summers did not have them and gave Summers an out. Yellen was always PBO’s pick. Always. I do policy. I know people, that’s the accurate story not the hype.

  • SmotPoker : We just won’t agree CL. I’m fine with that.

  • SmotPoker : His strong supporters say he has done nothing wrong, and that is simply false. It’s buying into the same kind of crapola that the right buy into. We need to separate the policies from the parties.

  • choicelady : Smot – Geitner did good work and had ties to the banking industry that let PBO put the thumb screws on them. He stopped bonuses and MADE the banks become solvent before they could do that again. His DOJ is pressing at district levels charges against the banks and WS that only Geitner could have sniffed out. Yes – he did fine.

  • Beatlex : Choicelady,of course,It was the elimination of glass-steagall that really got the ball rolling.I don’t think Bill Clinton realized what he unleashed would lead to what it did.He was in money’s pockets too

  • SmotPoker : Let me rephrase it then, I don’t believe everything he says, and I really find his stance on the NSA to be highly unconstitutional . Unfortunately I don’t sit on the SCOTUS.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I read that over at TPV. It says everything about both his leadership and our engagement. What he said in 2008 was that democracy was OURS. Many people have taken up that challenge. I don’t need people in the streets so much as at the doors of local Congresspeople. Democracy is neither gained in demonstrations per se nor as a spectator sport as it is in daily phone calls, meetings, letters, emails, and insistence on change. Together the president AND the people stood down those Blue Dogs.

  • Sabreen60 : Smot – Ok I don’t exactly get the “drooling on his nutsack” comment. That kind of talk ends all communication.

  • SmotPoker : Wanting to put Summers in the Fed is a good idea on his part? I don’t think so. Pressure forced him to change his hand on that and thankfully so.

  • KillgoreTrout : I do think Obama should not have retained so many Clinton officials. He should have looked harder for new blood.

  • SmotPoker : Insane.

  • SmotPoker : So keeping Geithner was a good idea on his part?

  • AdLib : CL – Good point about the Volcker Rule. There’s the ACA too and the end of DADT, DOMA, and much more. Much has been accomplished on a number of issues but the core problem with America, the twisted economic system that puts the 1% on top of the 99%, hasn’t been touched and that is at the heart of the ongoing disintegration of this nation.

  • SmotPoker : Still being abused.

  • SmotPoker : Toothless reforms. Lame.

  • choicelady : Smot – some of that is not with foundation, and I’d disagree since the policies HAVE changed and powerfully for the better. See my comment about Dodd-Frank and the Volcker Rule. That is HUGE, and only PBO could do it. Just having ‘buffoons’ is not really helpful. It’s the POLICIES that matter since all appointees serve at his pleasure and direction. I’ve been in awe of what he’s gotten done esp. since 2011.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well CL, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree about that. America’s economy is largely based on war production and the war on drugs that supports the private prison system is never really challenged by the dems.

  • SmotPoker : That’s pretty much all I want to say on Obama. I’m not against him, but I don’t view him as so many people do. I didn’t sign on to debate the merits of Obama. He got my vote twice, and I expected more fight from him, that’s all.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, absolutely. Today it was announced that the 16 Dems that signed onto the Menendez bill have tabled the bill. They received a lot of push back for PBO and us.

  • SmotPoker : For starters he kept a lot of the buffoons around in his office that created a lot of the financial mess. He’s signed off on the stupid sequester, there are many things he has not done that could have been done. I haven’t kept track of them all. As I said though, it’s not all on him. He is just one man, but he does hold some responsibility. The upcoming new free trade agreement he is trying to push through is bullshit. I’m not anti Obama, but I’m not drooling on his nutsack either like I see so many people doing.

  • choicelady : KT – Oh I’d very much disagree. I think conservative Dems are losing ground and in states are NOT the power they once were.

  • AdLib : CL – That point is very well made, I really agree with you. Obama’s rescue of the nation, instead of a McCain spiking the nation into a full blown recession, did undercut the popular momentum for real and large scale change. It was of course an unintended consequence but because a majority weathered the recession okay, that big but still minority portion of the nation that has been cut down long term, is still kind of on their own.

  • choicelady : Sabreen… Yes.

  • choicelady : Smot – you have examples because those of us working policy don’t see it as you do. What has he failed to do?

  • choicelady : AdLib – well, many changes for the better ARE occurring and have occurred. The implementation of the Volcker Rule – hardly discussed in MSM – on Dec. 10 and 11 was HUGE. It restored the firewall Clinton abolished in the voiding of the Glass-Stegall. NOW banks are NOT ‘too big to fail’ because they can’t get their hands on OUR money. That is a huge change, thanks to Dodd-Frank and those changes. Now it’s up to the DOJ to do what they’ve started in various states to challenge voting repression. If that changes and rights are protected – we just might see massive alterations in many Red southern states.

  • KillgoreTrout : In some ways, there isn’t much difference between the dems and the repubs. Especially when it comes to defense, and the private prison complex.

  • Sabreen60 : Smot – Can you be specific about PBO?

  • SmotPoker : No to Hilary she is yet another in a long line of corporatist Dems. She would be a mistake.

  • SmotPoker : Obama hasn’t been the great leader we needed either. Too many times he has thrown his supporters under the bus in order to facilitate a crappy deal. I’m very disappointed in the man. Yes, he has had to fight though unprecedented obstruction from the right, but he holds his share of responsibility for his half measures touted as success.

  • glenn : Beatlex (and CL)–I was going to say the same thing about Clinton–the male version. Speaking of that, both Beatlex and CL, what do you think of the female version Clinton as a presidential candidate? I still have mixed feelings about her.

  • choicelady : Beatlex – the Right has run with the ball since 1980. They got the upper hand in Congress in 1994. From there it was just incremental corruption, but it was systematic all the way.

  • AdLib : CL – I am confident that there will be a new generation of fighters for justice and rights but as I mentioned to Sabreen, I think the real push towards that won’t happen until enough people have had their lives so ground into the dirt that they just can’t take it anymore.

  • SmotPoker : Absolutely correct AdLib. Until the lights don’t come on and the water stops coming from the tap Americans will accept the status quo. Until the pain is widespread it will remain as it is.

  • choicelady : AdLib – if Obama had not been elected until 2012, life would be very different. It would be FDR all over again with people beaten down to the point of real radicalism. But he did not – and things quickly stabilized so that only some suffered, not all of us. And too many of us had NO empathy for those who lost it all.

  • Beatlex : Choicelady,I don’t think Clinton did all the damage.It was a bad move for sure.But it was the right that picked up the ball and ran with it in the 2000s

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, as Dennis Hopper once said, “Revolution is a young man’s game.” Of course, that doesn’t mean we old fogies can’t lend a hand.

  • SmotPoker : We are now just starting to taste the bitter fruit of our own apathy as a society. It’s only going to get worse before it improves.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – It’s been my long held belief that it is not until enough people are suffering greatly, that they will finally step up and demand the rights and representation they should have. It’s too bad, so much suffering could be avoided if enough people would only come together and act when bad things are beginning to happen but American history shows again and again, it’s not until people are really suffering badly that they fight back with the necessary strength against the wealthy and powerful.

  • choicelady : KT – Civics was the FIRST thing to be cut from school curricula. It was not an accident.

  • choicelady : AdLib – those of us on the streets, on the picket lines, protecting women in clinics, losing friends to RW violence – we are pretty exhausted and need younger and more vital allies. I hope they’re there.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think every citizen should have to take an extensive civics class. So many people here have no idea how democracy works. It’s a participatory system.

  • choicelady : AdLib – we progressives pretty much slept through the 90s when all the real damage was done. Clinton did nothing to stop it. People were apathetic and very interested in getting rich. They turned blind eyes. So we can’t do that anymore.

  • SmotPoker : Democracy must always be protected by those that enjoy it’s fruits if that protection fall short your democracy will fall as well. We as a society have failed to protect it.

  • AdLib : CL – It is sad, that after having fought so hard over so many years, that people still have to fight for their right to vote. But everything has its limits, the more the Repubs try to oppress more and more people, the more definite it is that they will be overpowered.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I think people know that with this administration, they have back up on voting. With corporate capital issues they WILL have to find other ways to work including marching, demonstrating, and taking alternatives that challenge corporate hegemony.

  • SmotPoker : I’m not in Jersey so I should be safe. I am banned from NY so no need to even go to the east coast.

  • glenn : CL–Dancing in the streets is good. One state down, how many more to go? The only good thing about all of these repub. legislatures with these voter id laws is they did them early enough so that there is time to fight them in the courts and WIN!

  • choicelady : KT – that man would SELL his mother for power. So…

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, I wonder what it will take for people to take to the streets. Gun violence has caused no public protests. Voter suppression as yet to cause people to take to the streets. In many other countries people protest all the time. Not here. It seems we are so apathetic.

  • choicelady : Smot – if you don’t answer, they have to ‘nail and mail’ – put it on your door then send it in the US Mail. So if it isn’t there – you’re home free.

  • SmotPoker : History states otherwise CL, power has never been given freely back to the people. It has always been a costly affair. I hope I a wrong, I just don’t believe I am.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, it wouldn’t surprise me. Maybe a henchman?

  • choicelady : AdLib – I sure hope so. People have to demand democracy, and we thought we’d won permanently, but we did not.

  • SmotPoker : I might have but I never heard the knock at my door…

  • choicelady : KT – I think maybe he already did…

  • glenn : SmotPoker–Are you certain you didn’t get a subpeona? :)

  • AdLib : CL – Some states may push this oppression so far, we could see another civil rights-type revolt in the South. Taking away voting rights and preventing them from getting health insurance…that can be a volitile mix.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, maybe Chritie will smother her with a pillow?

  • choicelady : Smot – it will return if we WORK for it. It’s the only way change has ever occurred. If we don’t demand it, it will never happen to the extent it must.

  • Sabreen60 : Y’all got jokes!

  • SmotPoker : Hmmm, I didn’t get a subpoena I guess things ARE looking up…

  • choicelady : Sabreen – Christie’s MOM got a subpoena? He should be VERY worried! (I know she didn’t. Wish she HAD!)

  • KillgoreTrout : Seriously Ad?

  • AdLib : Sabreen – Even I got a subpoena and I don’t even know why!

  • SmotPoker : It will never return unless it is forced upon them.

  • choicelady : glenn – I almost danced in the streets on the PA decision!

  • SmotPoker : Our government long ago abdicated it’s responsibility to the citizens in favor of the money to be had from the corporate corrupt world.

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, :D Looks like everyone and their mother got a subpoena today.

  • glenn : CL–Okay, thanks. Got lost for a while there. I do see where PA’s voter ID law has been deemed unconstitutional in the State courts. We’ll see what happens in other states. And, of course, PA is going to appeal. Seems to me it would just be much cheaper to open up more polling places, and hire more elections officers to keep the so-called voter fraud from happening. But, what do I know? I’m just a liberal who believes that everyone who is eligible should be allowed to vote…even republicans/tpar tiers!

  • choicelady : glenn – the disengagement of the Left and the venality of the Right made the 1990s ‘harvest time’ for the Right. The changes in rules on every single thing means we have a long uphill battle to reclaim democracy. It horrifies me that people STILL think they don’t have to fight for rights and especially for voting rights. POC know better.

  • SmotPoker : I truly have appreciated all the kind words and support from all my relatively new friends here on PPOV. It’s been helpful to say the least.

  • KillgoreTrout : Smot, it’s a great thing to remain friends with an old lover. It’s rare.

  • SmotPoker : Touch and go for a bit here with all my troubles. A couple of hours on Skype with an old lover/friend helped to set me back towards the right path.

  • AdLib : Doing okay, Smot. Hope next week brings some progress and good news for you.

  • choicelady : glenn – Voting Rights Act.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – as are YOURS!

  • Beatlex : Smot,Ok,How about you?

  • glenn : CL–VRA?

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think what you will see first is a class division in hospitals – rich and poor. Then an increase – if that could even be true – in social control to crack down on the ‘criminal class’. More and more they will resemble banana republics but very little will happen unless the VRA is upheld and ENFORCED.

  • AdLib : Howdy Sabreen! But the Governor can’t proceed, three lanes are blocked and he’s in a jam!

  • Sabreen60 : I’m doing ok everyone! CL, read your comments on TPV – outstanding as always.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, just think of all the bankruptcies that will ensue. Medical expenses are the number one cause of bankruptcy.

  • SmotPoker : Hiya AdLib how are you

  • AdLib : Hey Smot!

  • glenn : Hey Sabreen!

  • AdLib : CL – The white middle-upper classes in Red states will begin to care when their state’s economy and health system is strained because of these hateful policies. It will be gradual but there’s no avoiding the cost of having millions uninsured.

  • choicelady : Sabreen!!! Great to see you here! How are you?

  • Beatlex : Sabreen!-Hello,p roceed,indeed!

  • choicelady : PPO – oh wow that’s horrible. Glad we could help a LITTLE. I’m so sorry someone died. That’s a horror.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Sabreen!

  • SmotPoker : Hiya Beatlex how are you.

  • pinkpantheroz : CL, 73 fires in our state alone out of control. fatality confirmed, but hopefully this change will help the firies get things under control without too much damage to homes. Other states have problems as well but not to the same extent. BTW, Thanks America for sending us the Sikorsky Helicranes. They’re doing a great job. Elvis and Gerogia Peach are real busy right now!

  • Sabreen60 : Hello Planeteers. “Please proceed Governor”.

  • AdLib : PPO – I am somewhat familiar with how your Labor Party fought among themselves and that civil war made it possible for Abbot to get in. The Conservatives are tearing up the UK’s social fabric, can’t let them do the same to Australia!

  • Beatlex : SmotPoker!

  • glenn : Hey SmotPoker–You’ re here now, so that’s all that counts.

  • SmotPoker : Not as good as I could be but better than others in the world. So it evens out I guess

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Smot, good to see you here. Stay strong my friend.

  • choicelady : Evening SmotPoker – how are you?

  • glenn : AdLib–I agree with you, but somehow, the rightwingnutjobs will find a way to “spin” it so that they are the “victims” of the “evil, liberal agenda”, and the stupids will keep voting for them.

  • choicelady : PPO -Himself on High would not entertain the fools who act in his name!

  • SmotPoker : Damn I almost forgot it was Friday again. Awww, who am I trying to kid, I did forget.

  • choicelady : AdLib – the problem with dire poverty in Red States is that it is uneven. With voter suppression, the white middle to upper class people can keep it that way. Why should they care?

  • pinkpantheroz : AdLib, unfortunately, even moderate GOPers cant decypher the entangled machinations of the minds of the sanctimonious, hypocritical, venal evangelical 1%. I don’t think even Himself on High can!

  • choicelady : PPO – what’s the fire situation looking like this year? We already have them. The CA fire districts are now planning year around operations for the first time EVER.

  • AdLib : glenn – I do think it will become obvious over time to those in red states that they are slipping below the rest of the states that have embraced the ACA. How can the burden on those states NOT get worse when they have to bear the cost of millions of uninsured while other states don’t?

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I’m afraid you are correct. Drug testing is search without probable cause. It’s a direct violation of the 4th amendment.

  • glenn : PPO–I’m with CL–I’m so sorry. I wouldn’t wish the right-wing on my worst enemy–much less a wonderful country like Australia.

  • AdLib : CL – It really is the definition of insanity, the concept that by destroying the planet, these lunatics believe they’ll live in Heaven. I thought they believed in The Bible, don’t they believe God created The Earth and it was good? And if they destroy the Earth God thinks is good…he’ll sweep them up into Heaven? Can anyone really follow that derailed train of thought?

  • choicelady : PPO – I am so sorry!

  • pinkpantheroz : Yes, CL, unfortunately our Labor party shot itself in the foot with internal shennanigans and allowed the eejits to be elected. Were DOOOOMED!

  • choicelady : KT – I suspect with this SCOTUS you’d never get a pass on drug testing and the 4th. We need a good SENATE! We need the old buggers to die off and better people to replace them!

  • KillgoreTrout : I completely agree glenn. I don’t think mandatory drug testing is constitutional. It’s actually a search without probable cause. But if those that make their living off of tax payer’s dollars want those on social safety net programs tested, then they too should be subject to the same testing.

  • choicelady : glenn – we’re all working on reminding Red states what they’re losing out on.

  • glenn : AdLib and CL–I think that’s what the Dems, especially those in the red states who refused the ACA, should keep hammering home. How the ACA is exceeding expectations, and how those in states that have embraced it are doing so much better than their poor, “red” brethen.

  • choicelady : AdLib – never EVER underestimate the role of End Times Dominionists in this who think yes, use ALL the resources now because Jesus will restore Eden upon his return. For the ‘good ones’ you know. The rest of us will be burning in hell, so hey…

  • pinkpantheroz : glenn, you have a very valid point. They are public ‘servants'( yeah right!) so should be tested the same as others with high security levels.

  • choicelady : glenn – right on target with that! All or nothing.

  • AdLib : PPO – Those types will fiddle while Planet Earth burns because it’s all about serving the wealthy energy companies. They are happily killing the golden goose just to get at every last bit of gold they can before they’ve killed it.

  • choicelady : PPO _ I cannot believe you elected an idiot stooge like that! Not you personally – the plural second person is needed – Youze. HORRIBLE. He’s actually KILLING people with that policy!

  • glenn : KT–I so agree with you on drug testing congresscritters . If they want to intrude on constituent’s lives like that, they should also have to “prove themselves”. I’m still trying to figure out how those drug testing laws are constitutional, since the laws create a separate class of people. If the criteria is that you should be drug tested because you are getting federal money, then all federal employees should be drug tested. Now, I definitely don’t want to see that happen, I’m just trying to align the law with the Constitution.

  • Beatlex : Christie is all lawyered up.I don’t think it will help.He does not have control of what is happening now.It must be killing him

  • AdLib : CL – Great to hear that those on the ground are confirming what appears to be happening, that the ACA rollout is now going swimmingly. Don’t forget, Priebus declared that 2014 would be about one thing, Obamacare. Well, as their favorite President once said, “Bring it on!”

  • pinkpantheroz : Hi, CL. Yes, I see that Ca. is already having problems. And our GOP style Prime Minister is a climate change denier and is abolishing a Carbon Tax to help his cronies in the energy business. This despite the news that heatwaves like we just had are going to happen more often, with all the devastation the accompanying busfires bring. Cretin!

  • choicelady : AdLib – not even a slap on the wrist. No.

  • choicelady : AdLib – we are hearing over and over how good the ACA roll out is. We are exceeding the goals, and YOUNG people ARE enrolling. We have a lot of the core groups and more to come.

  • AdLib : CL – Same here, how many poor, minority men are in prison today for possessing the same amount of cocaine that slimy Republican was arrested for? And he walks with a slap on the wrist…maybe not even that.

  • KillgoreTrout : Be back in a minute.

  • glenn : PPO–Is the temp lower now? That’s a brutal temp. Did you have humidity with it?

  • choicelady : PPO – I live in Sacramento and think this summer we will rival you in heat. I’m so sorry. This climate change is horrific.

  • AdLib : glenn – I think the ACA will be THE issue for Repubs which will make it THE issue for Dems and with the website and enrollments running pretty smoothly now, it is a losing fight for Repubs and a winning stand for Dems by Nov.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think the filibuster is dead on all issues soon. Now if we could find something in the House to use on them… But yes, EOs are a tool of legality, so he is using them more.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, that is truly disgusting. I hear the govenor’s wife owns a big share in the companies that do the testing. I think if they want to drug test those who get tax payer money, then it should apply to those who make a living, from tax payer’s money.

  • AdLib : Hey PPO! I do think that all Obama will have to get anything done is use Executive Orders and he should, without pushing the envelope too far.

  • choicelady : Sorry – because he suffered from BEING privileged. Sick of it – the white elected official gets nothing for his coke habit while Black kids with a tiny bit of marijuana get years.

  • pinkpantheroz : Hi, glenn, doing fine now. Endured (just ) 4 solid days here in Melbourne of 110F+ days. Pitied the poor sods playing in the tennis open.

  • glenn : CL and AdLib–I’m keeping my fingers crossed, too. Of course, I will definitely be voting, too!

  • choicelady : AdLib – if there is one thing this nation needs, it is sentencing disparity reform. I’m sick of privileged white people getting passes on things like that kid who killed 4 people and got off BECAUSE they said he s

  • AdLib : glenn – Those are very fascinating races, I’ll be keeping a close eye on both. Amazing if either could win!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I would love to see that happen. But, these guys never get sent to prison. Too many favors called in.

  • AdLib : KT – That weasel tried to pass a law forcing people on Welfare to be drug tested…meanwhi le he’s tooting up a storm using his taxpayer-funded salary. That guy should be in jail and face off with all those already in jail for drug possession. Don’t think they’ll want to play nice with him.

  • glenn : Hi PPO! How’s everything with you?

  • choicelady : KT – he may go to prison. What he did is considered a national security issue.

  • glenn : AdLib–How big a part do you think the ACA will play in the national elections? And…do you think the Dems will run with it nationally…eve n in red states?

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, impeachment would be at least half justice. He should go to jail.

  • choicelady : Hi PPO – nice to see you here!

  • choicelady : glenn – those are very good things to know about your state! I will keep fingers crossed for you all!

  • pinkpantheroz : Good Evening all. Haven’t seen the President’s NSA speech, but can we ever get Congress to agree with ANYTHING he propoo=ses? I doubt it. Maybe it is time the mongrel in him comes out and he issues a barrage of executive orders.

  • glenn : CL–There are some interesting scenarios shaping up here in my red state. Jimmy Carter’s grandson is running for governor, and Michelle Nunn is running for Senate. Should be interesting.

  • AdLib : glenn – I don’t think it is a probability but it is a possibility. There aren’t that many seats left that can be contested but enough to flip control. It depends, if the Dems make this a national campaign, I think they might be able to pull it off.

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m against locking up people for drug possession, but in the case of this Florida politician, I’m willing to make an exception.

  • choicelady : KT – I think those asking for immunity will definitely roll over on Christie and he now knows it. Yes. He will face investigation which includes possible federal issues AND possible impeachment.

  • AdLib : CL – What Republican doesn’t think he’s above the law? How about the Repub in FL arrested for cocaine…who won’t resign. Even when they are arrested for a crime, they don’t think they should pay any price.

  • choicelady : glenn – I think there are very vulnerable GOP/TP ones yes, but the REAL issue is whether we can oust Red members in very Blue states. WI, OH, MI, and even CA. That could do the trick.

  • KillgoreTrout : Is Christie going to face any formal investigation?

  • glenn : AdLib and CL–Since I live in such a red state, it’s hard for me to fathom Dems taking back the House. Do you think there really is a chance of that happening?

  • choicelady : KT – I’m fine thanks

  • choicelady : glenn – I’m well. Things are busy here but GOOD. Too hot, too dry, but otherwise fine thanks.

  • KillgoreTrout : Thank you glenn. I’m really glad you liked them.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I hated American Hustle for its lack of motivation by the Congress people. Many good ones. NEVER understood it in reality or the film. But Christie – whooooo – that’s so obvious. He thinks he’s above the law and everyone else in America. He is in for a rude wake up call.

  • glenn : CL–Much better, now that I’ve gotten my computer working again. I really missed being able to participate in VOX last week. And you?

  • AdLib : CL – So true! We do need to work as hard as we can this year to try for that brass ring of taking back Congress.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey CL, I’m doing well. I hope the same for you.

  • glenn : KT–That’s a good way to put it…gluttony for power. BTW, I liked your poems too. My computer was down for a couple of days, so today was the first day I saw them–right before I came on VOX. Anyway, I really enjoyed them; thanks for sharing them with us.

  • Beatlex : Ego gets another one.Drunk with power,he thought he could do no wrong.

  • choicelady : Evening Beatlex and KT – hope you are both well?

  • AdLib : glenn – The only hope Christie had was continuing to scam the public and make them think he was not a nasty, corrupt bully. Once that facade was blown, I think he’s done.

  • choicelady : Hi glenn – how are you?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, especially with THIS congress.

  • choicelady : AdLib – that’s why we have to get a better Congress in 2014!

  • AdLib : CL – Obama is laying a lot onto Congress doing it’s job at oversight…and when any sentence contains “Congress doing its job”, you know we’re in trouble.

  • glenn : A big hello to CL, KT, and Beatlex. Hope everyone is doing well.

  • KillgoreTrout : It’s funny how gluttony shows up in different aspects of life. Like the gluttony for power.

  • glenn : Ad–Ouch for Christie, maybe. IMO, it’s good news for the country. I just could never imagine a man with Christie’s temperment running the country.

  • AdLib : Beatlex – Topic number one is Christie and Bridgegate but Obama’s NSA speech is right up there too.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey glenn and CL!

  • choicelady : AdLib – I did not hear or read the president on NSA. I do know Congress has to do a lot of the reforms. That’s not promising.

  • AdLib : Hey CL!

  • AdLib : Hey glenn! Yep, looks like Christie will be have an “abridged” political career. Ouch.

  • KillgoreTrout : True Beatlex. The jig is truly up for tony Christie, or Chis Soprano.

  • Beatlex : AdLib,Do we have a topic?

  • choicelady : Hi everyone – hope you’re all well!

  • glenn : Good evening, all. So, is Christie’s bridge the bridge NOT to the presidency?

  • KillgoreTrout : Thanks Ad. I appreciate that!

  • Beatlex : The jig Killgore.For Chris Cristie!

  • AdLib : Hey KT! Really enjoyed your poetry!

  • KillgoreTrout : What’s up Planeteers?

  • AdLib : I have to say, I’m not so happy about Obama’s position on privacy and the NSA. Some good suggestions but many hedged “reforms” that will end up being meaningless.

  • Beatlex : Not live,the talking heads are chattering of course.I know the gist of it

  • AdLib : Doing well. Did you see Obama’s NSA speech today?

  • Beatlex : 5 minutes now Ad,I’m fine,you?

  • AdLib : How are you this evening?

  • AdLib : Hey Beatlex! Depending on whether your clock is running fast.

  • Beatlex : T minus 7….

  • AdLib : Remember when the GOP was upset because of a Bridge to Nowhere? Now that Chris Christie has built a Bridge to another Clinton White House, they’ve got to be pining for the old days. Join us tonight for Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!

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