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AdLib On February - 8 - 2013
  • KQµårk 死神 : I’m off as well. We are going away to the GA mountains for St. Valentine’s day to take a long overdue break. I may check in a time or two.

  • AdLib : Sleep well!

  • SallyT : Good night!

  • SallyT : No problem!

  • AdLib : Just make sure we’re above the fold!

  • SallyT : Don’t worry, AdLib, I’ll be in there with you!

  • AdLib : Heh!

  • SallyT : I’ll see you in the funny papers!

  • AdLib : Night Murph!

  • AdLib : Yep, grab the bowls of peanuts and I’ll grab the beer bottles. Thanks for closing the Vox bar with me again, Sally. Looking forward to Sunday’s Funnies!

  • SallyT : I guess it is just you and me, AdLib.

  • SallyT : Good night, Murph!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…good point. And you are correct…a good place to close. Thanks for the discussion. Good night.

  • SallyT : I thought it was because he wouldn’t say he was or wasn’t, Murph?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally and unwilling to play the game….being gay was ok if you were discreet, but honesty earned no points. That is why he was jailed.

  • AdLib : Murph – A great way to close, I too like the upside of the parliamentary system, think of how much Obama could have accomplished in 8 years with it. Then again, think about how much more destruction Bush could have caused.

  • SallyT : Murph, it made me tear up to think of poor Oscar Wilde. So talent and so mistreated because he was “different”.

  • AdLib : Night CL! Rest well!

  • AdLib : CL – “TSA to junk naked body airport scanners – The TSA says the X-ray scanners will be gone by June because Rapiscan was not able to come up with a software fix to make the scanners comply with a Congressional mandate that the scanners better protect passenger privacy. Opponents of full-body scanners argue that strip searches without probable cause violate basic human rights.” «link»

  • SallyT : He was great, wasn’t he!?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally….I did.

  • SallyT : Goodnight, CL and rest well.

  • SallyT : Parliament!

  • SallyT : That was great, Murph, did you see that gentlemen give his speech to parliment?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Good night KT and Choice!

  • choicelady : Murph – you make a very good point about Parliament! Good night!

  • SallyT : Goodnight, KT, and have a good rest so you can get up and start loading music!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Great discussion tonight…Before I leave….wanted to point out why I prefer a Parliamentary System to our structure…the passage of the Marriage Equality bill in Britain…on the legislative docket for three months…three vigorous debates in the House after three committee reports…and passage.

  • AdLib : Night KT! Sleep well!

  • choicelady : KT -I’m with you. I’ve had a very long but productive week, and I’m exhausted. You’re three hours ahead, too! So I also am saying good night. Thank you everyone for an excellent and thought provoking evening!

  • AdLib : KT – The Founders wanted civilian control of our military, thus we have a President who is also CIC. The Pres is a civilian and as has been documented with JFK, the generals were convicted about bombing Cuba which would have likely set off a nuclear exchange between us and the USSR. It was only the fact that we had a civilian, JFK, as CIC that the military mindset of the time was blocked from causing a massive catastrophe.

  • choicelady : Sally – hmmm. Wonder if that’s the very nice women I met in Ashland with him? She was lovely! Maybe he’s nicer than he seemed, but I see pettiness in him as I did with Dennis whom I also had liked very much. Until I didn’t.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think we have NOT given up the privacy and civil rights talk. The problem is we have those who want EVERYONE (except themselves) under the microscope and those who want everything (except their writings, phone calls, etc.) totally revealed to the entire public 24/7. We aren’t doing the discussion well at ALL.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, the reality is, that in war time the government feels no resposibility to release military secrets. War would be quite unsuccessful without secrets. It does boil down to a faith in our leaders.

  • SallyT : Who are these people that say he is pissed? He comes from a state that is very progressive and he should be questioning our lack of policy on drone use. That does not make him an enemy of the President.

  • choicelady : AdLib – nobody sees you nekkid to fly! I had to go through those giant machines last year – it’s a cartoon outline. Found my watch, though. Forgot to take it off… duh.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…I agree…all of which points to the need for a structure for policy development and review, and for operational oversight.

  • choicelady : Sally – what he did formally was good. But people who know him have indicated he felt slighted and is still pissed. Like Kucinich did. Petty people can be tricky to deal with.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well friends, it’s time to count sheep. I still don’t how many it takes to reach slumberland! Long may run!

  • SallyT : And, Senator Wyden is married to a very wealthy lady. I have spoken with him and he is very willing to discuss issues he is familiar with and very imformative.

  • choicelady : KT – it is the bomb that has set off all the discussion. Should there have been some civilian or ethical determination before it was dropped? It is naive to think it’s all going to get ‘sunshine’ when security is an issue, but HOW much secrecy is OK? If drones are known and policies are made about them by our Congress, then it’s head and shoulders over what happened at Stagg Field and in New Mexico. We ARE tired of being lied to – but I don’t see this use of drones AS a lie at all. I’ve known it for years.

  • AdLib : CL – That is scary! We do indeed need to be publicly discussing our rights and how they should and shouldn’t be compromised in the pursuit of protecting ourselves. Unfortunately, that debate seems to have ended after 9/11 when too many people agreed that any sacrifice of rights is okay as long as it makes us feel more secure. Like being seen nude just to be able to fly on a plane.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…yes, that is my point. I think Wyden is using this to dig away at the Obama administration.. .one of the unhappy who believe they should be far more important than they are.

  • SallyT : CL, I have to disagree with you about Senator Wyden as he is Oregons. He is not upset by the health care plan, in fact, he withdrew his support from the committee with the Republican he was working with and said he was in agreement with the President.

  • KillgoreTrout : The CIC acts in the capacity of head of the armed services, so I question how that position is related to civilian affairs. It’s like the deisions mad all through WWII. How many of those decisions were made public? It’s like the decision to use the atomic bomb. No civilians were asked whether it was right or wrong. Not before the weapons were used, because the government kept them in the dark.

  • choicelady : Murph – I have some real problems with Wyden.He is furious with Obama for not accepting his bi-partisan plan on health care that would have been a disaster. He’s never forgiven Obama for the ‘slight’. I stayed at a B&B where he was once. He never even spoke ONE WORD to any of us. We sat behind him and his girlfriend at a play, and she talked with us. He ignored us utterly. So I see him as a very odd and egotistical person. He kind of worries me.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- in this case the paper was the legal basis and the philosophical foundation for the policy that the Senate Committee seems to have accepted. It is the kind of thing that would be useful for them to work with as well.

  • AdLib : Murph – Right, as it should be. I do think Brennan will fill them in on much more than the public should know though I think this is quite overdue. Again, I’m not upset at nor untrusting of Obama and his admin on this, I am concerned at how operating without real oversight sets a bad precedent for when Repubs return to the WH.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think that IS the issue. In 2003 just after the war started, we were hacked at the office by probably NSA. We had been having an internal email discussion about a rumor that the FBI was demanding imam’s sermons BEFORE they were given. We were debating weighing in on it. Later I was alone in the office and got a call from a “reporter” asking about that – and she knew a LOT of the conversation. I blew her off then called NBC and KNBC where she claimed she worked – they never heard of her. So WHO is monitoring things such as computers – MY computer -does matter. We won’t abandon computers in case another Bush or Dominionist comes around. Same with ANYTHING. The Nazis monitored radios. It all comes down to RIGHTS rather than the medium. We need to be debating WAR not just the particular mode of war.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…here is my reading….the paper was the philosophical underpinning for the operational parameters…the Senate Committee has been dealing with those but had not seen the paper. Who is making the most fuss over the paper, those not happy with the operations. Wyden et. al. I think they are using it as a lever.

  • KillgoreTrout : This makes me think of the social compact and just what personalfreedoms are we going to sacrifice for the good of the nation.

  • AdLib : KT – Actually, the President is CIC and he is a civilian, as is the Sec’y of Defense, SoS and Congress which is usually given oversight over military actions.

  • KillgoreTrout : For our government to work properly, especially in a time of war (declared or not declared) a certain amount a secrecy within the government is necessary. For the defense of our nation.

  • AdLib : Murph – If the Senate doesn’t even have a position paper on when and how drone strikes are used, it would seem that they would have to be out of the loop when those decisions are being made.

  • SallyT : The point I am making is that things can be misinterpreted and you can be setup. Yes, you don’t worry because you are a good person but you just never know how something can be used. For that reason I have a problem with it.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…my point is that the committee will be able to talk turkey with Brennan in a closed setting and this is where the issue of policy development and operations oversight can be really addressed and not in the media storm of the open hearings.

  • AdLib : CL – It’s very different when a computer is using software that could track your every move in a city and profile you. In the hands of a conscientious government, it probably wouldn’t be a concern. But if a RW Dominionist became President…

  • choicelady : Murph – my thought about that paper is that if the White House or any other gov’t agency turned over all their papers, we’d lose sight of the Capitol under them all. If they know the facts and principles – the specific briefing docs seem a red herring.

  • SallyT : CL, there was a camera!! It couldn’t tell anything except that we were standing there and talking.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, civilians have neve been in charge or even informed about the use of military weapons. There is a good reason for that. Who knows what eyes and ears are watching. As far as the use of drones in civilian life, use within the confines of our borders, i don’t know what agency or law would be responsible for their use.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib I don’t know about that. Feinstein and members of the committee are briefed regularly and she seems to have the particulars nailed down. The current hoopla is over a position paper that was not shared although it seems as if its operational principles were known.

  • choicelady : Sally – well, then NOT a Good Samaritan but a creep! Sorry that happend to you. Did it turn out OK I hope?

  • choicelady : Sally – I’m not being a brat, but that’s where a camera could HELP. It would show you were just arguing and that he had not been violent.

  • SallyT : Oh, and another thing, CL, the guy wanted us to lose are assigned parking place so he wanted to get us in trouble. See, people can set you up!

  • AdLib : Murph – Yes, but it doesn’t change the fact that Congress hasn’t been consulted or had any oversight over the drone program to date.

  • choicelady : Murph – OK, got it. AdLib – how is that any different from FasTrak on my car? “They” know when I go over a bridge up here! I don’t think they much care unless it’s a way of proving I did or didn’t have a real alibi in a crime. And I don’t intend to commit one, so there. I just think if we can be tailed (and I have been – five times – by extremists not the cops) cameras are sort of irrelevant.

  • SallyT : CL, it was that passerby interpretation of what was happening and not the facts. That can happen when you don’t know what you are looking at but guessing. People can get hurt by people thinking they know more than they do!

  • AdLib : KT – Also, oversight of the drones needs to be by civilian government, the people we elect. I sure don’t want unelected generals making decisions for us.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…let’s not forget there is a full day of closed hearings with Brennan next week.

  • AdLib : KT – Because in the hearings, Senators were expressing how upset they were that they couldn’t get the information they needed to know what was going on with the drone strikes and how determinations were being made…after the fact, let alone before the strikes.

  • choicelady : Sally – well, good for the passerby caring about you, but yikes – how embarrassing! THAT is what I was raised to understand – when you’re outside, you’re NOT private. So I REALLY don’t understand the expectation of privacy. Not saying I’m right – I just don’t. I’m always on my best behavior!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, i think that may have been the case. Bush was a law breaker from the start. He was a war criminal IMO, and initiated the largest agency to spy on American. An agency, that is still in operation. Who do you trust? I’d have to say, Our system of checks and balances.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL- This would not be a law but a statement of policy with conditions for operation. I believe the intelligence committee, Feinstein’s crowd, could act with reps from WH Intelligence and Judiciary reps.

  • SallyT : Even more reason to question drones in my opinion if it started with Bush!!

  • AdLib : CL – Being in public and visible to others isn’t the same as having video cameras able to track you wherever you go and have that video passed through computer software that can monitor and classify your activities.

  • SallyT : Me too Scared!~!! They didn’t know me at all!

  • SallyT : When I told the police that we were just arguing about something silly, they said they didn’t need me to arrest him. There had been a complaint and I was just to scared to say.

  • choicelady : AdLib – yes, I know the PERF story, but I’m not sure from police I know that it’s true. Some yes. Many or most, no. Local PDs wouldn’t work with them – Sacramento and many other cities told them to take a hike.

  • SallyT : CL, I was once in a argument with my husband over something totally silly and we did get loud. We were in the parking lot of our gated vacation spot. A passer by called the police. My husband was almst arrested for wife abuse!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, how do you know there hasn’t been any oversight? If not the CIA, then who? The pentagon? The Joint Chiefs? Fact is, we don’y really know who is determining what targets get hit, and by what agency. I guess these is a certain amount of trust in our federal government.

  • choicelady : Murph – don’t we HAVE to have the House to pass a real law?

  • choicelady : Sally – Bush DID use drones! It was the whole operation of the war that we objected to. Now with us out of Iraq and coming out of Afghanistan, the focus CAN narrow to drones. It’s what’s left. And because the threat has moved into other countries via individuals who want to carry it on, it makes PBO’s actions more conspicuous by their comparative rarity and visibility.

  • AdLib : Murph – I agree with your proposal, there needs to be oversight from all three branches on such a deadly program.

  • choicelady : AdLib – do we have an expectation of privacy on public streets? How? I had neighbors once where the husband beat the crap out of his wife ON THE STREET fairly regularly. I used to intervene only to have the brute say, “Shut up! This is PRIVATE!” To which I replied – no, you’re in PUBLIC. I don’t have and never had had ANY expectation of privacy outside my home or work or friends’ homes. I just thought it was where anything you did all the world could see. So I don’t understand that concept.

  • AdLib : CL – Have you read this story? “Confirmed: Police Executive Research Forum (PERF) coordinating Occupy raids”: «link»

  • KillgoreTrout : I am not particularly fond of cameras and drones that employ them. It could be argued that drones in our skies further protect the citizens. It’s really a matter of just who is behind the controls of such technology.

  • SallyT : I wonder if our opinions would be different if Bush had been using drones?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- I was not thinking of the House. The Senate.

  • AdLib : KT – That’s the big problem, there hasn’t been any oversight on the drone program and the decisions to kill. In Obama’s hands, I’m pretty confident he wouldn’t order a killing unless the target was fully proven to be a real threat. But if Romney was President?

  • choicelady : Murph – that makes total sense, but without a functioning House, it’s not going to work. The GOP have made every issue very difficult to resolve well.

  • choicelady : AdLib – in fact that was NOT nationally coordinated. Every PD acted differently. Most of it was from those that HAD been ‘federalized’ in reaction to 9/11 – not formally but de facto. Look at Portland, Denver, etc. – not an incident to behold. In Oakland it was Oakland living out its nightmare PD. They did not need any help – they are horrid and deserve federal oversight. So it’s NOT a nationwide phenomenon.

  • AdLib : CL – Personally, I do think government cameras in public places are a huge violation of our right to privacy. It is one of those clear cases of giving up important freedoms out of fear and desperation for security. It has worked in the UK to control crime but at what cost?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : ALL…Drone Policy and Operations Review Authority….I think the key is shared responsibility in setting and promulgating policy by the Executive, Legislative and Judicial Branches and then an Executive Committee with reps from all three to review ongoing operations.

  • SallyT : A problem I have is that we are a nation of laws and we are a nation that use to set standards for other countries to consider as just and implement. I don’t like to see our standards diminished.

  • KillgoreTrout : As with any new development in the technology of warfare, it’s use is decided by our government. I think we have to maintain our faith in the integrity of our system of checks and balances between the three branches. Without such faith, our whole system begins to crack. I am not saying we shouldn’t be vigilant, but we must combine vigilance with reason.

  • choicelady : So what do we think of cameras at intersections or, as in England, everywhere? Are they invasions of privacy on public streets?

  • AdLib : CL – And how can we forget the nationally coordinated police forces across the country that beat and gassed into submission the OWS movement. That was pretty scary, made you relize just how quick and easy it would be for government to crack down on the people and widespread protests.

  • choicelady : AdLib – there is a video of a drone over Elgin, Illinois. It’s sort of the “Roseanne” city – blue collar, down at the heels. What a waste of a drone! NOTHING is going on there. Probably drug surveillance or something. I don’t like it, but until Congress gets its act together, we will have this kind of creepy stuff.

  • choicelady : AdLib – if the Congress were not such a mess, we COULD pass laws limiting military weapons to war zones, period. We did once outlaw the CIA spying on Americans. Until 9/11. Then Bush placed a CIA operative in the NYPD – and federalized that police department because of it. They spied on everyone. Obama pulled the operative and ended the right of NYPD to be quasi-federal. But yes – it could easily happen under the wrong president.

  • AdLib : Here’s a map of where drones are allowed to fly in the US. Keep in mind, these are surveillance drones, not armed drones…at least right now: «link»

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, I think nuclear weapons are a whole different matter.

  • AdLib : CL – I have no problem with Alwaki being taken out, as you say, he was a murderer of American troops and plotting to continue. I’m just looking ahead, what if a Mitt Romney had such drones at his command?

  • choicelady : AdLib – drones are instruments of war. We do not – and hope we never do – have war against people within our own borders. We don’t use military weapons for the most part – police don’t even have automatic rifles. We did do something of the kind in Waco with the tanks, and those sorts of things are extraordinary not routine. We bombed a Black radical group in Philadelphia – and wiped out a neighborhood for blocks. So the use of military weapons is NOT a good idea in the states esp. cities! We don’t do it often or maybe now at all.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, definitely not. Within the borders of America, people have the right to a trial by jury. A trial by their peers. I see it as a judicial matter more than an act of combat.

  • SallyT : The drone also killed his 16 year old son who was over from the US for a visit. Was the boy quilty because of who his father was as one senator said, “He should have had a better father.

  • AdLib : Yes Sally, like you, I’m not as focused on what’s happening now but where this path leads us. Do we want drones flying in our skies that those in power can use to kill Americans if they believe them to be an imminent threat? What if a far right Repub becomes President and has such drones flying over our towns, would we feel freer and safer?

  • KillgoreTrout : Used to be, that those who were caught spying against their own country were put to death. The difference now is that in the past, those accussed had a trial. But when someone commits the same crimes, outside of the US, they don’t get, or deserve a trial. I think when they join the enemy, they lose all rights as an American citizen.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I will bet – and I don’t know – that we did not target Alwaki in Yemen without a quiet permission FROM Yemen. Holder talked about this a lot last year – and the way they read the law. Maybe they are wrong, but they did not do this without consulting the best resources they could. War is very different from even covert ops. THAT creeps me out, but Alwaki had already killed American troops and others, and his danger was clear. I think that does make the situation different from targeting someone who is a sympathizer but who had done nothing.

  • SallyT : AdLib, I think you and I are seeing this in the same respect. It is not how it has been used to date, even tho there may be questions there, but how will it be used in the future and by whom and for what reason?

  • AdLib : Should drones be used in the US to kill Americans who pose an imminent threat?

  • SallyT : But, it is a weapon that will be developed and used by other countries just like the atomic bomb was. That makes it a danger to anyone that does not believe the same as the country next to them.

  • AdLib : CL – Well, the difference is that the US is going into foreign countries and disregarding the laws there to take out whoever they have decided needs to be killed. That’s not the same as Americans falling under the legal jurisdiction of the country they’re in. At the same time, I’m not saying that our government shouldn’t have the ability to kill those who are in the process of carrying out the murder of innocent Americans before that happens. It is about drones but even more, it’s about how unaccountable those people are who order a killing.

  • SallyT : I can see the advantages of drones over bombing the hell out of a country to get just one guy or one tribe of enemies.

  • choicelady : KT – I keep asking and not getting an answer about what happened to people like that who aided Hitler IN Europe? Or any other war? We targeted Union people who fought for the Confederacy, that I know. What about overseas wars and collaborators NOT in the US? Alwaki’s citizenship pretty much seems irrelevant once he took his stand. And I feel for the military families who think too many Americans are willing to sacrifice THEIR loved ones to protect Alwaki’s “rights”. They could have died trying to extract him from his bunker in Yemen. It’s NOT an intellectual exercise on the constitution – it’s real life and a hard decision.

  • KillgoreTrout : I have 0 sympathy for any American who chooses to wage war against their own country. It’s always a sad thing to see anybody killed, but as far as constituional rights go, I think anybody who fights against their own country deserves what they get. Ancestery or not, those who seek to kill Americans, on an undefined battle ground make their own choices as to life and death.

  • choicelady : Sally – I think that’s the wisest course: the UN. I don’t doubt bystander deaths. What I do think is that the harm has been VASTLY reduced when we moved away from bombs and artillery to drones. That is why they’re used. The problem is they are imperfect just like anything. I want a clear policy because yes, who is the next president?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : DRONES…I have written several pieces at HP in which I listed all of the “not boots on the ground” responses to threats and it seems clear that drones need to be part of a whole series of tactics. I think the key is shared responsibility is setting and accepting policy by the Executive, Legislative and Judicial Branches and then an Executive Committee with reps from all three to review ongoing operations.

  • AdLib : Sally – Yes, it is the long term and blowback that is always lost in the shuffle. What happens when a religious state has drones and uses them against those who they oppose? Or if an American is considered a spy and killed by a drone in another country. RIght now, we have them and nobody else does so it may seem under control but as they become widespread, having flying robots that can kill people at the push of the button is pretty scary.

  • choicelady : AdLib – drones aren’t the issue. There is absolutely NO difference between what happened to Alwaki (sp?) and Dykes in Alabama. They were both ongoing and imminent threats, both were shot without “due process” to prevent harm to other people. When you’re abroad, you do NOT have the protection of the Constitution – think of all the drug dealers from the US in Turkish prisons. You live by the law of the nation in which you are standing. I looked a lot of this up and was indeed pretty surprised at the fact that once out of US jurisdiction, we’re toast legally. Remember the kid in Singapore who was caned. Nothing we could do got that stopped. So if you’ve become a terrorist in company with others, you don’t have easy protection. No way to get him in Yemen. NONE. He made his choice – and his threat was real. So like Dykes, he faced the hard end of a choice to be violent.

  • SallyT : I have seen many reporters that have returned from over in Pakastan and Afgan that say there have been many innocents hit with the drones but no one is telling.

  • SallyT : I have a problem with drones myself. I can trust President Obama with his use but I don’t know who will come after him and how they will use them. And, what happens when other countries gets them and starts using them? I think there needs to be much discussion and regulations on their use. The UN needs to be involved, too.

  • AdLib : CL – You’ve got to let me see that photo of you with the MP-5!

  • AdLib : Sally – The drones are a big problem, especially when one considers that a Repub will be in the WH again one day. This is why, some pundits say, Obama is establishing specific rules for their use. One discussion (on Hardball?) today was, if it is legal to kill Americans who have joined Al Qaeda and represent an imminent threat in the ME, wouldn’t it be legal to use a drone in the US and kill an American here who has similarly joined AQ and is an imminent threat? SO drone killings in the US can take place or will take place one day?

  • SallyT : Murph, I saw that too. He said that the conspire nuts would jump on it not being a true picture and be off and running with that.

  • KillgoreTrout : Thanks CL. It is very much my pleasure to be able to open a forum for such an important part of all our lives. It so nice to get positive feedback.

  • choicelady : Murph – it was pretty cool being in the same group with Farrell. His wife is Shelly Faberes and is SHE neat! I do remember that episode but NOT that line! That’s priceless!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally….I saw a reporter from Bloomberg on Maher tonight and he made the point about the gun that shut up the liberals on the panel…he said that once Carney mentioned that they skeet shoot at Camp David they had to release it for….the folks already in his corner who would know that the folks on the right remain totally obsessed with nonsense. AN interesting take.

  • choicelady : Sally – I am really upset about the slams on drones. The president is TRYING to minimize “collateral damage” and I heard on NPR that of all the strikes this year, only THREE people who were innocent bystander got harmed. Think of Bush’s carpet bombings! The photo of the president is to silence the ahats who insist if you don’t shoot you don’t understand. It’s a much better photo than the one the FBI has of me at their Citizens Academy – I’m wielding an MP-5 assault weapon. Turns out I’m a GREAT shot with it. Creepy talent to have I must say.

  • AdLib : KT – Couldn’t agree more, I too think enlightenment is the purpose of the lives of human beings.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, you are not definitely talking to yourself. Your selection of funnies are right on and relevant. I really do look forward to them, each week. Keep up the good work. it may be appreciated more than you suspect.

  • AdLib : Amazing, I guess he’s still around via webcasts, here is Dr. Demento’s site: «link»

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- You and Mike Farrell…that fits. And yes, Mulcahey was the kind of minister most of us hope to have- loyal to his own tradition but realizing that it only reflects a part of the truth. Remember the show in which an old man believed he had been cursed and a woman animist priest came to the hospital in a multicolored outfit with fans, bells and feathers and exorcised him in a series of wonder dance moves? Mulcahey said she was a cross between an Archbishop and a Geisha! Loved it.

  • SallyT : Well, they are being really tough on the Prez this week in the cartoons with the drones. Many on the left have problems with those, too. And, why did the White House release that picture of the President with the gun and skeet shooting? Damn!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I think you are right. The enlightenment may not be as fast as we would like, but I attribute that to such differences in our ages and life experiences. I do think enlightenment is one of the basic purposes of our lives.

  • choicelady : AdLib – ahhh. Definitely different person.

  • AdLib : Murph – That song was by Bennie Bell, whoever posted it credited Benny Hill. It is a classic gag song from the music hall days.

  • choicelady : Murph – it could be the same man. He was NOT young when we were.

  • choicelady : Sally – that is SO wonderful! You’ve got FANS!!! I’m sure KT has the same. I know I don’t comment much – but I look and love the music and let that be. I DO love your work, KT!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…I wonder if the Bennie Hill I knew of took his name from that Bennie Hill…It being in the 1940′s means it is from the Music Hall period which means it is every bit as raunchy as it appears to be.

  • SallyT : That is okay, Murph, you don’t have to say anything. Just that you looked in makes my day!

  • AdLib : Murph – That’s what I’ve been sharing with Sally, lots of readers for the Sunday Funnies but the comics say it all so most readers don’t leave comments…they just return the following week!

  • choicelady : AdLib – yes. I think. That’s pretty convoluted, but I DO understand!

  • AdLib : CL – Yes but the ignorant like these haters are too ignorant to know that they are the ones who are ignorant.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally….I think that those who are doing as my friends are doing are just dipping into the well you are digging for them every week. Because the cartoons are so visual, just responding in words does not cut it. So….I do the same thing. I need to remember to bow in your direction every week but since I don’t have anything better to say than what you said through the cartoonists, I laugh, take notes, make a copy and move on.

  • choicelady : Murph – Fr. Mulcahey would have a coronary ONLY IF someone told him what it meant. I feel quite sure he’d not know on his own. He was the image of the good priest, wasn’t he? I got an award along with Mike Farrell both of us for supporting First Amendment freedoms FROM religion, and I mentioned Fr. Mulcahey as the person we’d NOT have to fight! I recall in one episode he had to perform a Jewish rite, and did it just fine. THAT is a man who understands perfect love.

  • AdLib : Murph – The credit on that song was wrong, it’s by Bennie Bell from the 1940′s. There used to be a radio show out here that was later syndicated, Dr. Demento, which played all the wacky and weird songs ever recorded and I remembered that one.

  • SallyT : I am very glad to hear that, AdLib! I wonder at times if I am talking to myself, well, that I do do. But you know what I mean.

  • AdLib : Sally – I told you your readership was growing on Sunday Funnies! Congrats!

  • KillgoreTrout : Hpoe you’re feeling better kes. I always enjoy your company.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…yes Sherman would be so upset. Fr. Mulcahey would be having a coronary.

  • choicelady : AdLib – Yeah, but the problem is WE aren’t ignorant. But I AM exhausted fighting them. They are SO dogmatic!

  • choicelady : Sally – OK that makes SENSE!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…how do you pull songs like that out of your hat? Bennie Hill…the master of double entendre.

  • KillgoreTrout : You are absolutely right Ad. We are all on some sort of path, some sort of journey. Even if we are not aware of it. We are all going to die. I don’t see it as something to fear.

  • AdLib : CL – Dominionist or Aggressive Atheists, they’re just angry, insecure people looking for a reason to feel good about themselves by attacking the ignorant “others”.

  • choicelady : Sally – see? What are crone cartoons anyway?

  • SallyT : Oh hell, I meant DRONE CARTOONS!

  • choicelady : AdLib – that song MAY be TMI…

  • choicelady : Murph – bleeping Col Potter!!! How very funny!

  • SallyT : I am going to have to go and weed out a bunch of the crone cartoons. There are a lot of them. It is the hot topic in cartoon land.

  • choicelady : KT – a whole lotta Christians would agree with you and find that very familiar and very comfortable. We are growing ever more universal every single day.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally- well in both cases you were the life of the Party.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, my bud. How are you this fine evening?

  • SallyT : But, Murph, I am glad to hear that you are enjoying them!

  • AdLib : DOn’t tell me you’ve never heard the song, “Everybody Wants My Fanny”? «link»

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…I am sure they do not. Col. Sherman Potter on MASH used to use the phrase until a writer got a call from a British friend who happened to catch the show while in the States. I am told that MASH in syndication in Britain has to have a bleep when Potters says it.

  • SallyT : Murph, I have been plastered all over the office at a couple of Christmas parties many years ago.

  • choicelady : Sally! You’re a STAR!!! OK a star in Missouri but a star nonetheless. Wonder how many people across America are poaching your site and pasting up your ‘finds’? How very cool!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, as a Taoist, i Belive that there is no human name for god or Tao. It’s all a mystery to us. I like the mystery. It keeps us thinking. The Tao has no end, and it has no beginning. I think the whole concept of Tao is to teach those of us that exist in the material world. A vague model for living and interacting with our fellow humans, AND nature. We are, after all, one and the same.

  • choicelady : Sally – I have often wondered if some of us who are on other parts of the Planet don’t show up even if we’ve not locked into Vox. I think you’re evidence we do.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally T….your cartoon post ended up being printed up and plastered all over a volunteer office in which I work. This may be a trend. Two of the regulars there loved it. I invited them to join the Planet but I think they just like poaching. They were able to capture the images and print them individually. They must have put up 30 of them.

  • choicelady : Murph – wonder if some of the people I’ve heard use “my sweet Fanny Adams” even KNOW that.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I really am sick of fighting Dominionist to right of me atheists to left! They are both sneeringly condescending, and NEITHER of them knows a GD thing about religion (which I don’t care about) and NOTHING about faith and spirituality which I DO care about.

  • SallyT : I must show up there when I am over inputting cartoons.

  • choicelady : Hey Sally! Saw you in the balcony. Glad you’re here!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- Sweet Fanny Adams is a reference to buggery…in a very convoluted, typically British fashion….

  • AdLib : Night Kes, have a swig for me! Sleep well, sorry you’re not feeling well!

  • choicelady : kes – hope you feel better soon! I’d rest on KT’s medical advice of Vick’s Vapo Rub and toddies. It really works. Enough toddies, you don’t care anyway.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi Sally

  • SallyT : I’ve been known to clear a room before, Kes.

  • choicelady : Murph – and here I thought that expression was some kind of toned down saying. Glad I never used it. Was in Andover with an English friend once – he about dropped dead when I suggested we go to a bar called Shags.

  • KillgoreTrout : Thanks kes. The name/term was foreign to my heathen ears! ;)

  • AdLib : KT – Agreed, I find the strident and condescending “atheists” as obnoxious and deluded as the RW Extremists. The hatred and disdain that this type expresses shows the same kind of insecurity and inferiority complex as those on the Right who insist that America must become ruled by the Bible. Those who are comfortable and confident in their beliefs have no need of attacking others.

  • kesmarn : Will do, Murph… and howdy and g’night to Miss Sally!

  • SallyT : Hello those that are here!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes….get well. Try some natural stuff.

  • choicelady : Murph – I gave friends in Cardiff an American-English dictonary. It was ESSENTIAL.

  • KillgoreTrout : Awe shucks AB! Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate your contributions.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : AB- Yeah, Frances sounds worthy of emulation.

  • kesmarn : Well, dear friends, I think I will take my Nyquilled self off to bed and spare you further babbling. Have a wonderful weekend — cough — cough — cough!

  • choicelady : AB – we need to know more about Fanny Hill next time!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL- OH YES!

  • choicelady : Murph – so “my sweet Fanny Adams” is dirty?

  • choicelady : KT – I think these days most of our folks don’t think there is a GOD as a figure, a single entity, a supreme being who is all wise. God is – I don’t know what. Everyone has a different thought about it. Life force? Collective intelligence? Quarks? It means they don’t rule out SOMETHING but don’t assert it either. On the other hand, I’m touched when someone has a very quiet, simple connection to a God who is a personal friend – kids do that, and it’s very dear. Who’s to say now we have Spooky Action at a Distance. Could be another. Could be infinity. LOTS we don’t know!

  • AlphaBitch : Same here, KT. Keep ‘em sober, AdLib. And watch that Kes – she’s on a roll tonight!!! xo AB

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL and AB I know this because I went to school in England from 12- 15 and got into big trouble thinking I was using the polite word for “butt”. Everyone gasped. Fortunately I had an understanding school master.

  • AlphaBitch : Murph: Her name was Frances, but she was called Fanny. I obviously take after her.

  • KillgoreTrout : Have a lovely weekend AB! Glad to toss about viewpoints with you.

  • kesmarn : Mammon would be material wealth, KT, I believe.

  • AlphaBitch : KT; I’m okay with whatever you are. You are a heck of a nice guy who helps us groove with the music on weekends when we have a minute, and I always have fun showcasing friends……

  • MurphTheSurf3 : AB- Fanny: Taboo Brit for the female genitalia! Of course it is also the short, familiar form for Frances.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I don’t even know what Mamonn is.

  • AlphaBitch : Jinx, CL

  • choicelady : Murph – do tell!!!

  • AlphaBitch : Murph – NO! Do tell. And I must do the open disclosure that my family was a bunch of slave owning plantation farmers. I have no control over my past, only my present.

  • KillgoreTrout : AB and CL, I am an atheist. I do not believe in supreme beings. I also don’t believe that I am 100% correct in my thinking. I do not agree with “activist atheists.” I feel they are missing a big point. That point is personal discovery. I don’t like it when someone says to me,”believe or go to hell.” I don’t believe in a one true god. I think the concept of one true god is the source of etreme misery in this world.

  • kesmarn : It’s the Nyquil talkin’

  • MurphTheSurf3 : AB-+– Does your family know what “Fanny” means in British slang? And since she from the Days of the Revolution….it is an important question.

  • choicelady : Murph – it’s OK. No grade.

  • AlphaBitch : Ha! Kes you are too quick!

  • kesmarn : Was your ggg grandpa Bennie?

  • AlphaBitch : Fanny Swell. Might be my new stripper porn name.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL-+– drawing a blank…..I do not well under pressure…..

  • AlphaBitch : Fanny did not fight; she just married my ggg grandpa. But her name rocks.

  • kesmarn : Fanny the Great!

  • choicelady : Murph quick – a Fanny joke awaits before AB leaves!

  • AlphaBitch : Oh Frennie! You see the marvel in this! Isn’t that grand? Maybe Grand Fanny?

  • kesmarn : G’night, Alpha Fanny!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : AB and apparently you are leaving us with the tidbit about Fanny Hill….no chance to be clever…grrrr

  • choicelady : AB – Good night and sweet dreams!

  • choicelady : AB – anyone who gets into the DAR because of Fanny Hill is MY KIND OF WOMAN!!!

  • kesmarn : Are we gonna hafta call you Alpha Fanny now??

  • AlphaBitch : Poor Murph! Boobs, pregnancy, premarital sex and Sarah Palin. the Unholy Grail.

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, it should be just about the love, but unfortunately, that’s not the case in reality. Religions, or the difference between them set up the concept of, “the other.” Mankind is still afraid of what we don’t understand. We fear a differnce between religions and cultures. This is what leads to aggression and war.

  • choicelady : AB – Missionaries had to face the fact that all their work came NOT out of a profound belief they were right but a desperate fear they were wrong. They saw those they tried to convert at one with Earth, Wind, Fire, Water with all the animals and all that lives- and it put a lie to the tomes, the edifices, the rules. No one hates another quite so much as one who thinks the other is RIGHT when he is wrong.

  • AlphaBitch : I’m going to say goodnight, but before I go, thought I would share that my ancestor who gets me into DAR is my great great great grandMOTHER – a woman named – for real – Fanny Hill. How great is that??????? Peace out.

  • kesmarn : Thomas Merton said that the further along he got in his monastic life, the less he wanted to talk/write about it.

  • AdLib : It’s the quiet folks who always seem to be the most spiritual. Boasting isn’t as compatible with the humility of the earnest.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Are you guys talking about SARAH PALIN…really.. .I get a phone call and have to leave you and you take up one of my favorite topics.

  • AlphaBitch : Mammon, Mormon. What can I say?

  • choicelady : KT – you have that right. Pursuing Mammon is the new Holy Grail. Jesus’ teachings? Not so much.

  • AdLib : Religion is like sex, those who boast the most about being the most endowed and being hooked up constantly are usually not to be believed.

  • AlphaBitch : I have sat at the top of the South Rim in Big Bend and “seen” God. God is everywhere and with everyone if we just stop to listen. The reason it sometimes takes a church in the middle of nowhere or a 15 mile hike to “find” God is that all the distractions are removed. That’s all.

  • choicelady : AB – Palin doesn’t HAVE any boobs worth talking about! Nope. It’s about the fake pregnancy.

  • choicelady : AB – those are the ONLY rules Jesus had. People think that when he told the woman he kept from being stoned, “Go and sin no more” that he had a rule book. What he was saying to her was – keep your promise to your husband. You made the commitment, abide by it. It’s NOT anti-sex. It’s about faith in the heart to those who love you.

  • KillgoreTrout : The so called Christians how believe that wealth is the answer, completely misunderstand, not only the teachings of Christ, but the entire meaning of spirituality. They have been mislead by political influences that relate only to a material world and not to a truly spiritual one.

  • choicelady : AB – I will take it out, too!

  • choicelady : KT – only one thread of Christianity is rule based. The other is wisdom based and does NOT follow rules. Jesus said rules are NOT evidence of faith, only of obedience to old ways. You can follow dietary laws, sexual laws, etc. – but you will not find truth and inclusive love that way. So NOT all Christians believe that. Only the ones pounding the bible at 3 am.

  • AlphaBitch : So CL – no fake boobs for SP?

  • AlphaBitch : KT: The Abrahamic faiths do go a bit overboard on the laws. But Jesus had just two: Love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind; and love your neighbors and your enemies. In fact, it’s just about the love isn’t it?

  • kesmarn : Has anyone ever heard of a war that was started by Buddhists? I don’t think I can recall one…

  • choicelady : AdLib – Palin’s hypocrisy is exceeded only by her greed.

  • AlphaBitch : CL: I was thinking it is time to re-read Lamb. I love you for that recommendation.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, Buddhism is considered a religion, but I heve points of contention about that. I guess it’s considered a religion becaue so many, many people throughout the word practice it’s teachings. But there is no supplication among Buddhists. There are no commanding principles. No heaven and no hell. I find this to be much more wise than all the dos and don’t’s and comdemnations that exist in Christianity or Hebrew or Islam.

  • choicelady : AB – I wonder how many people in that little town you have influenced? Hope it’s all of the congregation!

  • AdLib : CL – But wasn’t it obvious from the start what a hypocrite Palin was? Trigg aside, her hubby was part of an anti-American separatist movement, Bristol openly had an out of wedlock baby after premarital sex and meanwhile she campaigned about how she was a “real American” and believed in “family values”. She would have been more laughable if she wasn’t so close to becoming our Vice President!

  • AlphaBitch : There is a very old very quaint and very simple little church in Toyahville, TX. In the middle of NOWHERE. I go there whenever I am in W. TX and I always go up on the altar and open the Bible that is there to Micah. Then I go out and ring the bell. Google the image – it’s quite sweet.

  • choicelady : AB – that is probably the most popular verse we all use, no matter who we are. There is even a hymn based on it. It is just the foundation – and it is OLD Testament predicting the new.

  • AlphaBitch : “What you do for the least of me” is such a great passage. BTW – I love that you use the verse from Micah to open your meetings, CL!

  • choicelady : KT – for too many faux Christians the destination is wealth. They are so afraid because they do not live by Jesus’ teachings, and they are obsessed with money and know that is NOT THE POINT.

  • choicelady : KT – these days our Protestant folks embrace Buddhism, Tao, wiccan, whatever gives grace and love and comfort. We know we did harm as missionaries, and we need to LEARN not browbeat from others. Jesus’ message was all inclusive. We have to lead that way again.

  • kesmarn : BRB. Son is messaging me.

  • AdLib : CL – I mentioned before, there are nice and good people who are Scientologists but Scientology itself is a scam and dangerous.

  • choicelady : AB Brittany is Sarah’s daughter, but since she was promoting abstinence, she pretended SHE was having the baby so her own daughter’s sexual fling would not be revealed. She CANNOT release med records – there’s no record of her giving birth to Trigg.

  • AlphaBitch : L. Ron Hubbard was a narcissistic creep with major delusions of grandeur. Sort of like Dick Cheney, or Paul Ryan.

  • AdLib : Yep, Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion. Even so, in the sense of following beliefs, it can be thought of in the same way religious dogma is.

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, you hit the nail on the head. The journey is much more important than the destination. I don’t even know what a destination could possible be.

  • choicelady : AB – I heard him interviewed. I have an acquaintance who is powerful in Scientology here and like her fine – but I know nothing of them. She gave me a tour of their building, and i was fine until I realized everyone wore black, and no one smiled at me at all. At ALL. From there I was just glad to get to lunch…

  • AlphaBitch : Really??? You mean Bristol (Levi’s baby mama?)? If not, who is Brittany? A sane named Palin instead of those whack names?

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, I don’t really Have a religion. At least not in the general meaning of the term.

  • AlphaBitch : I’m reading Gone Clear by Lawrence Wright. He lives in Austin, and once hosted a lunch for 3 of my “kids” to discuss the life of an author. The man truly is amazing. The amount of research just to write The Looming Tower (about al Qaeda, for which he won a Pulitzer) filled a whole room with library style card drawers holding the index cards from his research. Dozens of legal pads, all with a name and contact. Pretty incredible.

  • choicelady : KT – we try to adhere to that in everything we do. We see the damage done by sectarian hate, and we renounce it. Truth is a journey, NOT a destination. Who are we to say we are possessed of THE truth? We need to learn from everyone around us. No alternative makes any sense.

  • AdLib : AB – Not a problem, the practice with vampires is to make sure you put a stake through their heart so they can’t come back. In a figurative way, that should indeed be done with Palin. The hatred and greed inside her is corrupting her appearance, no question. Can’t hold all that ugliness in forever.

  • choicelady : AB – no the med records are because she is NOT Trigg’s mother. Her oldest daughter is. It’s “babygate” and it is something nasty. She pretended to be pregnant, but Brittany had that baby before the one she finally went public with.

  • AlphaBitch : True, KT. I have no problem with YOUR religion unless you start trying to make it MY religion.

  • KillgoreTrout : The wiset philosophyy, in my knowledge is the old Buddhist teaching that all religions must be respected. They are just different paths to the same end. Imagine how much more peaceful this world would be, if everyone adhered to such wisdom?

  • AlphaBitch : OK, sorry for the ad Palinum attack – but good gosh her hair looks dry and straw-y, and the pale lipstick does no good. I’ve always thought the whole medical records release thing was because her breastes were fake.

  • choicelady : AB – I read a hint to Heloise once from a woman who figured out how to lay down bread so that when she made PBJ sandwiches, the edges met. She was SO proud! Those life skills may seem minor, but in the press of the day, they matter. Good for her on sock matching!

  • AdLib : Kes – Damn, so sorry to hear about your losses.

  • AlphaBitch : The sweet thing about my friend’s mom (her name was Valda) was that – even in the last stages of the illness – she could pair socks like no one’s business, and loved to do so. Guess it was from having a hub and 3 big boys. Sock pairing.

  • AdLib : AB – Palin’s looks will be a slow motion re-enactment of the climax of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

  • choicelady : AB – THREE??? I AM sorry, and YES that’s it for now. For a very LONG TIME now.

  • kesmarn : Just lost a friend about 2 weeks ago, also. Very sudden. Up and about on a Friday. Gone on Monday. ARDS. “Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome.” Untreatable.

  • choicelady : kes and AB – people like Palin aren’t Christians. They are Dominionists. I call them “Old Testamentarians ” for whom Jesus is just a get-out-of-jail- free card. YOU live it. They slam it. BIG difference.

  • AlphaBitch : CL: AND a former beloved boss. OK, that’s 3 for me. No more now for anyone, hear???

  • choicelady : AB – I’m so sorry your friends’ mother died. Your ‘second mother’. It’s been an awful, awful week for death of those we love.

  • KillgoreTrout : Palin is desperately clinging to the very same “MSM,” that she has so denounced in her 15 minute moment. She won’t ever thank the MSM for her fame and fortune. Only for her failures.

  • kesmarn : Yes, for a while she looked like she was on a crazy Hitler-like ascendancy and I was freaking out. All gone now.

  • choicelady : AB – Being a “professional Christian” – well, Protestant – it pisses me off to be associated with the Religious Right. We are NOT, and I’m sick of them and equally sick of the lefties who THINK we ARE.

  • AlphaBitch : Palin’s looks are fading (as all looks too over time) so she will just look haggy.

  • kesmarn : You are MUCH more Christian than the Tundra Witch Palin, Frennie!

  • choicelady : kes – that Colorado defense was INSANE! The fetus is not a person if it impacts their wallet and is if it impacts a woman’s LIFE????? And they expect us to take them seriously? Institutional morality? You kidding? With Mahoney in boiling water in LA, there is nothing left of the church to hold up as a moral leader.

  • AlphaBitch : I still identify as a Christian, Frennie, but not many would agree. SMS

  • AdLib : Kes – Palin was a threat in her ability to whip up the haters but not as a potential leader. She was too wack and too many people knew it. Now what does she do, looking at the rest of her life as an anti-climax? I do enjoy that thought, knowing that she will shrink into obscurity, clawing in futility to get her 15 minutes back.

  • kesmarn : I still identify as Catholic, but I doubt that the church sees me that way… It’s sad.

  • AlphaBitch : Good CL. I listened to it yesterday; one of my friends of 42+ years just lost his mom to Alzheimers. She was like a mom to me as well. That song says it all. It takes time to learn……

  • kesmarn : c’lady, I was just talking with another Catholic friend today and we were saying how horrible that defense of the lawsuit was…the one that insisted that “a fetus is not a person.” What has happened to this once decent institution??

  • choicelady : AB – that is one of the songs I kept. It’s beautiful.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, lies and propanda have a shelf life.

  • choicelady : All – I have waded into the contraception mess. Our people who work for Catholic non-profits are getting screwed so I am fighting for OUR religious rights and rights under the Civil Rights laws. There IS a war on religion all right – and the Catholic Church is waging it. THEY have become the new George Wallace taking tax money then denying our rights.

  • kesmarn : I was just thinking the other day how menacing and formidable I once thought Palin was…and most of you were saying: “PHHHSSSHHH…s he’s a flash in the pan.” You were right! YAY.

  • AdLib : AB – We’ll just have to go out for lunch first before I lose my sense of smell.

  • AlphaBitch : CL: Listen to the song I posted in memory of Bito. The one by Maura. That’s a haunting one for sure.

  • choicelady : KT. Yes. They CAN be that blind and stubborn.

  • AlphaBitch : When will Marcus come out?

  • AdLib : Back in 2010, who woulda thunk it? Fox News crashing in the ratings, Sarah Palin fired, Rove imploding on election night then launching a civil war against Baggers…heh-he h-heh…just as I planned!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I can’t either, but their implacable hanging on to old ideas in a changing world is so apparent. They can’t be that blind or stubborn..can they?

  • AlphaBitch : Although one idea floated by some drunk friends was to make cat hair bombs and bomb the Taliban. Only women and children would get antihistamines.

  • choicelady : AB – I thought her absolutely lovely. She’s still pretty in her more recent things, and that VOICE! WOW! Thank you for turning us on to her – I’ve added a couple of her things to my YouTube list. I’ve never encountered her before, thank you!

  • kesmarn : “a la commode” :lol: Got that right!

  • AlphaBitch : AdLib: so visits to me and Kalima are out of the question,huh?

  • AlphaBitch : Crap happens. The End.

  • choicelady : ADLib – ouch – those allergies are AWFUL. Glad you have taken her in as a “yard cat” though!

  • AdLib : Hey AB! Just waiting for you to show up so we could wrap up solving the world’s problems.

  • AlphaBitch : Yum, some Ham Rove a la commode.

  • kesmarn : Frennie, yup. Problems all solved. On to Rove-bashing for dessert.

  • AlphaBitch : Hi CL: caught your message about Maura – thanks so much. I love her song – even w/ shoulder pads the size of Idaho.

  • KillgoreTrout : The GOP refuse to accept the fact that if they don’t change their core values, no amount of “rebranding,” is going to help them.

  • AdLib : CL – Nope, have an adopted cat who’s an honorary family member. She started visiting each day in our backyard and now is here every day. I am allergic though to cat dander so couldn’t have one in the house.

  • choicelady : KT – I can’t believe that the GOP think the ONLY thing wrong is ‘bad messaging’.

  • kesmarn : Good Lord! How cynical. To call attending a youngster’s funeral “political.”

  • choicelady : Hey AB – come on in! GREAT to see you! Just talking about Rove…

  • AlphaBitch : So…y’all solve all the problems yet?

  • choicelady : ADLib – both made in Buffalo. Wow – you’re keeping the economy there alive! Thanks!

  • choicelady : AdLib – I thought you did NOT like cats?

  • KillgoreTrout : Has anyone seen the GOP attempt to make They are still trying to alter the meanigs of words, to hide their true agenda”message, ” more appealing to voters?

  • choicelady : kes – OK. Marshmallow pizza. Uh huh.

  • AdLib : CL – I forgot to mention I’m eating pork rinds and drinking from the straws in my beer hat.

  • choicelady : KT and ADLib – I am shocked these rich RW hacks still give Rove any money at all. I think the GOP is so messed up it’s almost impossible to tell who they think can win and who can’t. Joe Walsh is back – screaming at Michelle Obama for going to that young girl’s funeral. She marched in the parade then got shot to death. And he says Michelle’s attendance is “political”. Says more about HIM than anything. These are the politicos the Kochs etc. seem to think are GOOD even though they tanked.

  • kesmarn : The weird thing is, this one time Karl Rove is actually right. Those people like Sharron Angle and Todd Akin were too crazy to be electable.

  • AdLib : Kes – Yep, know what you mean. I’m a dog person, I really connect with them (though I like cats too).

  • kesmarn : c’lady, my marshmallow pizzas have never been equalled.

  • AdLib : CL – Yes, all the possible end-of-life decisions a family has to make for an elderly family member are wrenching.

  • KillgoreTrout : cL. I find it amazing that he is not. His bullshit cost the Kochs and others to waste millions on his advice.

  • kesmarn : :lol: sleeping with the fishes! Between ticking off FOX and losing all the money for his investors in vote-rigging, Karl is on thin ice.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I’m proud of you for having a Barcalounger. Made in Buffalo, NY. Excellent evidence of no taste at all.

  • AdLib : KT – Yep, just don’t understand how dumb the Kochs and others are, to keep giving that failure Rove money, just because he used to not fail as much.

  • choicelady : kes – you must be a very interesting cook.

  • choicelady : KT – Not ‘sleeping with the fishes’. YET.

  • kesmarn : I’m alphabetical, which is why marshmallow is so close to mushroom in my mental filing system…and they occasionally get switched.

  • AdLib : So what do you think comes of this declared war by Rove on Baggers? Do the GOP Elite who are a minority in their party, succeed using their power and wealth to block out the Baggers or do the Baggers use their grass roots power to unseat the GOP Elite? Either way, I’m popping the popcorn, sitting back in the Barcolaounger and ready to enjoy the spectacle.

  • KillgoreTrout : I can’t believe Roves efficacy is even thought to be real, after all the money he was given to help win the last election. I think he’s lucky he’s not “sleeping with the fishes.”

  • choicelady : kes – were I not devoted to hubby, I’d be an animal hoarder.

  • choicelady : kes – I’m sort of a categorical thinker in ‘memory’ stuff. I was inches from sweetpotato…

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- thanks I will read it.

  • kesmarn : She’s a real animal person too, AdLib. You know — how some people are just hard-wired to relate to animals.

  • choicelady : AdLib – it’s like when my mother in law was dying: hospice said it’s easier on the family to do that. It’s easier on the patient to drop dead. But when you have to CHOOSE to cause them to die – it’s the right thing, and it’s awful anyway.

  • KillgoreTrout : Any big GOP funder of any attempt by Rove, has to be a fool. Rove encouraged the big money people/corps to invest over a billion for the 2012 elections, and came up with nothing to show for all that money.

  • AdLib : Kes – Very sorry to hear that, losing that furry family member after having it as such a pillar of one’s life, is very hard.

  • kesmarn : Moss…Ivy…I can see the connection… :lol:

  • choicelady : Murph – IVY his name! «link»

  • AdLib : CL – There are cases where pets take a long time to pass away but as you and I’ve experienced, the quicker departure is a bit jolting. The suffering, their confusion…damn …

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- I will look further.

  • choicelady : Murph – the doc was something odd like Mudd or Moss or something. He was very smart I think.

  • kesmarn : It looks that way to me, AdLib. What a spot to be in. (Heh!) If they don’t address their “loony problem” they’re in trouble, and if they do, they’re in more trouble.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…I went looking for that doc. Could not find a reference. I will look further. Maybe ask my doc.

  • choicelady : kes – oh I’m so sorry about the dog! What a week. I hope there’s a pet heaven where we can find them all again!

  • AdLib : Kes – But won’t it result in a greater and messier conflict within the GOP? Which is a good thing, of course, but isn’t he pouring gasoline on a fire?

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think Rove met his match in Ashley!

  • choicelady : AdLib – that was what made this hard. She was quite good Sunday morning, and immobile Sunday night. She tried and tried to get around – it was awful. She looked so confused and scared. I just hated it. They do have a sense of forever – and it doesn’t work. So horrible.

  • kesmarn : AdLib, Rove is going to get nowhere trying to be the “voice of reason” in a party that does not value reason at all.

  • AdLib : Rove sure looks to be igniting the GOP Civil War into being full blown with his declaration about opposing the only part of their party that has any energy.

  • choicelady : kes – no bells, no whistles? Sorry ’bout that!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, that would be wonderful. I lived in Akron while I attended Kent.

  • choicelady : Murph – a doctor whose name I cannot recall back in the 50s and 60s said that was why we had an increase in cancer – we knocked out fever. He was mocked, but he had a lot of good scientific evidence. I have always let a fever run for a time before knocking it back. I think there’s truth in that. Good for her! I get wacked out at 102 though. And I have the unfortunate tendency NOT to get fevers at all, but let them go when I do.

  • kesmarn : The Fave has been grieving this past week. She was very attached to her grandpa’s dog — who’s been around for most of her life — and the doggy died on Wednesday. Tearful meltdown.

  • AdLib : SO how about Rove going after the Baggers AND Ashley Judd? Is he looking like he’s imploding or what?

  • AdLib : CL – When it’s someone else’s pet, it’s easier to for those who haven’t lost one to say, “That’s too bad,” and just not be able to connect with that feeling. Poor things, they think they’ll be with you forever, having no idea they’ll pass away. That gets me…

  • choicelady : KT – 78 was a VERY bad one. Glad you survived. I might be headed to a Kent State conference in April though in Akron. I will let you know if I go. Maybe we can meet!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes and CL… another one Wendy’s (my doc) basics is to do anything to raise your body temp (just do not exceed a safe temp- 103 in her book) because the higher temps kill of the viruses. SO she says hot showers while drinking hot liquids, heating pads in bed until covers while drinking lots and lots of fluids. I do it when I start to feel a bit ill and it works. She says that most of what we take for meds suppress the symptoms that actually are part of the defenses of the body.

  • kesmarn : Sadly, no, c’lady. I had to keep my itchy fingers off the fun gizmos.

  • KillgoreTrout : I have to admit, beside the huge inconvenience to mankind, I love extreme weather events. Nothing more beautiful than an undesturbed landscape covered in snow.

  • choicelady : kes – I can’t forget something that sounded like such fun. Whenever we were in Buffalo snows, there were calls for people on snowmobiles to come get medical personnel – neat! Now that’s a commute! Overall, an enclosed cab WOULD be warmer at least! Did they let you run the light and sound the siren?

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, it may have been 78. I think it it was, because I was attending Kent State at the time and 78 was my freshman year. My memory is a little like Swiss cheese.

  • choicelady : KT – I live by Vicks indeed. It works.

  • choicelady : Thanks AdLib. I remember how blasted you all were when your beloved dog died. It’s indeed a real part of your family, and it hurts. We really miss her a lot. And she WAS obnoxious sometimes, but very sweet and loving, too. Just hard. I’m so glad you got another dog – and we should learn all about what you chose! We’ve not really talked about it unless it was one time when I wasn’t here.

  • kesmarn : Whatta memory you have, c’lady!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, Vicks made my colds and congestions go away, many times. Spread that stuff on your chest, a dab beneath your nostrils, a good warm bed, and whamo, the cold and congestion were gone.

  • choicelady : kes – I remember your ride with the fire department! You’d mentioned it somewhere along the way. The kid left in me thinks that ROCKS!

  • AdLib : CL – Just saw that you wrote this, so sorry about your kitty! It is so hard to lose a family member that’s been a part of your life for so many years.

  • choicelady : Murph – another good set of remedies, thank you. I have to say that since I have been going regularly to my ‘crunch’ (chiropractor) I have not been sick one single day. Not even after cross country or international plane rides. That’s ALMOST a miracle!

  • kesmarn : Murph, that is so cool! I am fascinated by home (mountain) remedies and medical history.

  • kesmarn : I had to ride with the firefighters to get to the hospital during one really bad storm some time back. Fun!

  • choicelady : KT – was that ’77 or ’78? New England got blasted in ’78 but I never knew how far it went. Either way, it is VERY different from a regular snow.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KES….my doctor, a woman, and an osteopath swears by this website for natural cures, and symptom reducers… «link» I have tried some and they worked for me.

  • choicelady : kes – we asked the vet if we could just keep her til the end, but she was so bad with kidney failure she’d have gone into massive seizures. Could NOT let that happen. But I’m Polyanna and STILL am trying to figure out how to save her. And she’s already gone. Sigh. Our little cat (actually big now but much younger) also misses her and is very needy. He will be OK, but it’s sad.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I remeber the blizzad. I had two cars, both clunkers, but they got completely buried by the snow. This was in Ohio at the time. It took me hours of physical labot to get them free.

  • kesmarn : Or a Nyquilini?

  • AdLib : Kes – Heh! How about a Ny-Tai?

  • kesmarn : Better than a Bloody Nyquil, I suppose, AdLib.

  • AdLib : Nyquil Colada?

  • choicelady : kes – oh, that is disgusting!!! Toothpaste? yuck.

  • choicelady : ADLib – Nyquil Margarita!!!! OMG!

  • kesmarn : I’ve been there, c’lady. I mean on the kitty euthanasia thing. But sometimes it’s the only humane thing. And YUMMY — Nyquil margarita sounds about as tasty as the kid’s snack I saw on YouTube the other day: Muppets toothpaste on saltines.

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, that would depend on how many toddies and how many shots of Nyquil.

  • choicelady : Lovely to see you, too KT – and to find out we are mutual toddy lovers. That and Vicks usually DO the trick. Sambuccus is great for coughs though.

  • choicelady : KT – Vicks is definitely available and does help HUGELY.

  • AdLib : Kes – You’ve never had a Nyquil Margarita?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, that’s like saying my dog is gonna crap on the sidewalks. We can’t do anything about it.

  • choicelady : kes – I think toddies and Nyquil lead to headlines in the death column. Wouldn’t go there.

  • choicelady : kes – thank you. She was a pisspot and we loved her. Smart, sassy, fun – and gone. Very hard to kill something you love.

  • KillgoreTrout : Very good to see you CL! I always appreciate your presence here.

  • choicelady : KT – There is a world of difference between a solid snowfall of EVEN three feet and a blizzard. The wind piles up drifts of spectacular and unmoveable proportions! In the blizzard of ’77 in Buffalo, there was only a foot of snow added – no one got out for a week due to drifts. In ’85 we awoke to find snow IN OUT BATHTUB – the wind had driven in past the storm and inside windows. We could see NOTHING for hours, and it was SO cold our heat never came on – the auto dial was too cold. MAJOR big deal, blizzards. Snowfall? Meh.

  • kesmarn : The standard line from the GOP these days is: “If we can’t fix ALL of it, let’s not fix ANY of it.”

  • kesmarn : Do toddies and Nyquil go together? Somehow I think that might be a real combo!

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, Vick’s Vaporub is great for clearing chest and sinus congestion. I don’t know if it is even avaiable these days. Maybe hot baths and eucolpysis would work.

  • kesmarn : awwww…my sympathy, c’lady. That’s so hard. I think I saw that mentioned on the Twitter feed. 18 is really up there in kitty years. I know she’ll be missed.

  • AdLib : So is the Repub line going to change from denying Climate Change to saying we can’t stop it anyway so why try?

  • choicelady : kes – currants should help, too.

  • choicelady : kes – I’m with KT on the toddies. It doesn’t heal you. You just no longer care!

  • choicelady : kes – YES! If he made me look, then that’s super! We also had to put our aged cat down Tuesday, and it was hard. She was at least 18, and we miss her terribly. Every time I see my black purse or shoes, I think it’s Belle. Sigh.

  • KillgoreTrout : I lived in Borton during the 80s. We had snowfalls of two or three feet, and that wasn’t considered abnormal. I have lived through winter storms there that brought tress down. no crazy warnings and speculation by the Weather Channel.

  • AdLib : CL – Yep, plnts needed some water but the puppy comes in all muddy!

  • kesmarn : That’s interesting, c’lady. I have some dried black currents around here. I wonder if that’d be close enough.

  • AdLib : So, looks like we may indeed get at least universal background checks, yes?

  • choicelady : AdLib – glad you got rain. We got a little yesterday, but it mostly went around us to the mountains. That’s fine – waterpack is EVERYTHING these days! If you have your waterwings and pontoons, you’re good.

  • kesmarn : KT, I’m ready to try just about anything at this point.

  • choicelady : Sambuccus is mostly elderberry. It is a natural anti-viral and tastes GREAT. Liquid and tablets. It just seems to help. If it’s a placebo, who cares?

  • kesmarn : I hear you, c’lady. Maybe he “made ya look” from where ever his vantage point is tonight!

  • AdLib : CL – I know, it is a tough one to get used to.

  • choicelady : Oh crap – just looked at the lineup looking for bito. Damn. Going to take awhile to realize…

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, I’m sorry to hear that. I hope you will recover soon. Hot Toddies may help. Maybe some old fashioned Vick’s Vaporub! ;)

  • kesmarn : c’lady! We seem to be getting some doozy storms of late on the E. coast. Now — you have to tell me what sambuccus is!!

  • AdLib : Hey CL! Cold and rainy for us in CA but nothing to complain about compared to those in the way of Nemo.

  • choicelady : les – I KNOW you’re a nurse, but Sambuccus works on hack hack for me. Yeah – touchie feelie. It works.

  • kesmarn : Homie, snow on the ground here, and I’m dealing with one of those colds that leaves you hack-hack-hackin g with a cough, although not feeling bad.

  • AdLib : Kes – Haven’t heard from the folks I know out that way, assumed it would be a nasty time.

  • choicelady : Evening all – anyone blasted by Nemo? I see kes is OK and that’s a relief. KT? Anyone? Stay safe y’all – I went through the Blizzard of ’85 in Western NY. Brrrrr!

  • kesmarn : Not here, AdLib. I have two friends in NYC and one on the CT coast who are not having a relaxing evening tonight.

  • KillgoreTrout : hey Homie! How are thing in the great northwest of Ohio?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Thanks for asking Kes…we had some rain which was good for our water table, we had some very cold days which is good for the necessary sterilization of the ground soil, we had some warmer days which is good for ground prep…..so overall good.

  • AdLib : Evening Kes! Glad you’re Finding Nemo isn’t a problem for you.

  • KillgoreTrout : All this negative partisanship by the GOP fails to understand the difference between ideology and hard core reality. That is the GOPers biggest obstacle for the GOPers.

  • kesmarn : Hey, Murph, how has your week been?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hey Kes

  • kesmarn : Good Friday evening, gents. If I’m not mistaken I think we’re all out of Nemo’s icy reach tonight.

  • AdLib : KT – No kidding! Same thing with the anti-gay Repubs, they oppose equality and rights…until they find out their son or daughter is gay.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, it’s like disaster relief. No GOPer givees a shit about it, until they’ve been hit. Christie’s actions after Sandy speaks volumes. He sure wasn’t worried about partisanship when his state was literally being washed away.

  • AdLib : Murph – Don’t know what disaster it will take for us to get the political momentum to update and repair our infrastructure.

  • KillgoreTrout : Good to see you Murph!

  • KillgoreTrout : Good to hear Ad.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi KT…and yes Ad Lib I watched the hearings.

  • AdLib : Hey KT! ALl is well!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi Ad Lib…yes the news is dire but thanks to modern communication, social media, and the aggressive approach of the governors the damage will be contained. The real problems have to do with power outages created in no small part by our time weary infrastructure, and flooding if there is too quick a melt. So we will see.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Planet folk! Que pasa?

  • AdLib : Did you see the hearings this week?

  • AdLib : Hey Murph! Rained here too but Snowmegeddon is going on on the East Coast.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : No snow day here….but we had a bit of rain….need so much more….7 inches behind.

  • AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” or “Snow Day!” when you arrive!

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!

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Categories: Vox Populi Archives

Written by AdLib

My motto is, "It is better to have blogged and lost hours of your day, than never to have blogged at all."

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