AdLib : Sorry all, got sidelined putting my little one to bed. After today’s terrible events, I took my time enjoying her breaths and sweetness. Wishing everyone love and peace…
choicelady : funk – Thank you! It’s been scary. I just don’t know what to expect, and that’s even scarier. I appreciate the vibes!
funksands : CL, I had no idea! I’ll carve off a healthy chunk of good vibes for your husband on Monday.
choicelady : OK – the computer is getting balky, so I’m also bidding all adieu. Have a grand weekend. And everyone please – send good thoughts my way Monday? My husband is having a PET scan to see if he has major heart problems. I personally am rooting for a hernia. (One gets weird with these things.) So all energies, gratefully accepted! Hope to talk with you soon.
funksands : Kes, CL have a restful night. I hope you thoughts are untroubled tonight…
choicelady : kes – good night, dear friend. Sweet dreams and good rest. Keep us posted on retirement plans!
glenn : KT and Kes–good night. I’m “signing off” too.
choicelady : funk – my chiropractor is going to Bali. Too bad you aren’t – I’d get you to meet!
kesmarn : I think I may head off to bed as well. Prayers for all the little ones…everywher e…God bless them all.
funksands : Mmm that’s a little colder. Head back west from Tahiti
choicelady : KT – have a good rest. Hope to talk to you over the weekend. Thank you for being you – your compassion just shine through this anguish. GOOD MAN!
kesmarn : Tahiti.
kesmarn : Good night, KT. Try to rest.
funksands : Night KT. Take care of yourself!
funksands : Kes, warmer….
choicelady : funk – can you share info on where you’re headed? Hope it’s someplace neat!
kesmarn : Bali?
KillgoreTrout : Well good people, I too must retire for the evening. I’ve commenting all day on this horrid tragedy. See you tomorrow.
choicelady : funk dear – you’re a GREAT human being. Do NOT beat yourself up about this! Get him to talk about it all – a warm and friendly ear may be what HE really needs now. Cannot have been easy down there.
funksands : A leeetle further away Kes
kesmarn : Headed for the Jersey shore, funk?
funksands : I’ll just tell him I’m leaving for vacation tomorrow. That’ll make me feel better
kesmarn : Oh dear, funk…. You are far from being a douchebag. Maybe a funk sandbag…? Anyway — how were you to know?
funksands : KT, I know…but
choicelady : funk – Sorry that happened to you! Just when I get righteous, that’s when I screw up! It’s OK – you’re just being human!!! Send him a bottle of something he’d like, and forgive yourself. It’s OK!
KillgoreTrout : Well funk, it’s not like you knew.
funksands : Sheesh, my day keeps getting worse. I called a friend of mine for the third time and was totally busting his balls on his voicemail for not getting back to me. He just left a voicemail for me that he was sorry he hadn’t called me, but he’d been busy for the last 5 weeks doing clean-up in New Jersey after Sandy. I feel like a total douchebag…
kesmarn : From your lips to God’s ear, c’lady. Michigan needs to pull out of this tailspin. “Punch the putscher” right out of office.
choicelady : Sabreen – I hope you CAN sleep. Be well and yes, give hugs. We’re sending ours to you, too. Sweet dreams for you!
KillgoreTrout : Sleep tight Sabreen. Tomorrow is a new day.
choicelady : glenn – it’s one big reason I gave up teaching at those grade levels. Too much pain in very small people that did NOT need to exist.
kesmarn : Will do, Sabreen. Good night. Rest if you can.
choicelady : kes – yesssss. America is resembling Weimar Germany more and more. I just want to make sure it does not resemble POST Weimar Germany! Michigan is scary because what happened there is a putsch. What happened on the RTW appears to be ILLEGAL since their Constitution gives the power to alter labor laws to a commission that was in no way involved in the change. I hope the courts smack the Governor and Legislature DOWN!
glenn : G’night sabreen.
Sabreen60 : Well folks I’m going to call it a night – unless I can’t sleep. Anyway hope to see you on Twitter or back here. Take care and by all means hug your kids – even your grown kids.
KillgoreTrout : CL, that is so sad.
glenn : CL–You’re so right. I taught the early elementary grades for many years, and it’s so sad to see those kids come to school with so many problems, yet so much promise, only to watch them get to 3rd or 4th grade and become behavior problems because they just can’t cope.
choicelady : KT – I understand. I’ve known four people who chose to die because they could no longer deal with their pain. NOT blaming them – but they got very little help. The darkness took them when there was nowhere to turn.
KillgoreTrout : Private prison’s business model is, the more people you incarcerate, the more money you make. That is just deplorable here in the 21st century.
kesmarn : Yes, c’lady. Hmmmm…where else have we seen the disabled, the mentally ill, the “unfit” cast aside? 1930′s…? Europe…?
KillgoreTrout : People who successfully battle mental illness are some of the strongest people on earth. It also takes a lot of courage. Unfortunately too many take their own lives and those of others.
choicelady : glenn and kes – the treatment of “the least of these” in this country is disgusting. Our competitive model means if you have special needs, you’re just garbage to be tossed out.
funksands : CL, the Denmark program is the Flagship of the program. They are dipping their toe into the US. The economy slowed them down a bit.
choicelady : funk – THANK YOU. I sent that on to my husband. MUCH appreciated!
kesmarn : Right, KT. On this Charlie Rose program, there’s a military guy on who’s been successfully treated for PTSD. He seems far from “weak.” Very sane!
funksands : Private prisons have convinced some community leaders that their constituents are more valuable to the economy in prison rather than out of it. Humans as commodity.
Sabreen60 : CL, I have a friend who is a teacher. During the late 90′s at the height of the crack epidemic, many of her 1st and 2nd graders had emotional problems who had been crack babies. What has happened to these kids can’t be good.
KillgoreTrout : It’s the stigma attached to mental illness. Far too many people see it as a weakness and not an illness. Too many people think mental illness can’t be treated properly. Assholes.
kesmarn : Agree, KT. Private prisons should be abolished.
glenn : CL–As a former teacher, I’ve seen many of the fetal alcohol syndrome kids, too. They never get as much help as they need, and are labeled “failures” at such an early age because they can’t pass those stupid tests!
kesmarn : Yes, the stigma does continue, c’lady.
funksands : Choice, you’d love the Specialisterne program. They just located in the US: «link»
choicelady : KQ – in China they hack up girls. Boys pretty much not.
choicelady : Oh kes – that’s horrible. We passed a mental health local funding proposition only to see the money diverted to other things, so yeah, same problem. Too many of us (and I’m NOT immune) think those with mental problems should just “snap out of it”.
KillgoreTrout : Private prisons should be abolished. Rich bastards making money from the sorrows and misfortunes of others. Private prisons actually exchange in the stock market. It’s 21st century slavery.
choicelady : Sabreen – at various times I’ve been a court advocate or observer. Most of the young men of color have conspicuous fetal alcohol syndrome. That gets VERY little attention. They are PHYSICALLY impaired in their ability to govern their actions. Horrible. So we lock ‘em up and do NOT treat them – and they can be treated.
kesmarn : K-Sick cut the mental health budget in Ohio by 46% this year. You can hardly believe the folks wandering the streets with serious mental illness now.
choicelady : funk – check with Arc (I think it’s NOT all caps) here. I’ll write to you to talk with my husband about it.
Sabreen60 : KQ, I remember Reagan doing that and mentioned it on TOD. Many of the young black and brown men in prison need therapy. The courts don’t take into account that many have mental illness and far too many are illiterate. Of course, folks get super rich off the privatization of the prisons.
KQµårk 死神 : In China they just hack up kids with knives.
funksands : CL, thanks. Thankfully our son will be able to live with us forever if he needs to, but many of our friends are simply living on borrowed time…
choicelady : glenn – no need to be sorry! Funny! Just too over my head tonight, I fear!
kesmarn : Thanks, glenn. I liked your disarmed chair analogy too!
choicelady : KQ – I agree about Reagan, but a lot of the abolition of mental facilities came FROM the communities of people with problems. I don’t entirely disagree, but it’s gone haywire to the point where you can’t get help for anyone who doesn’t want it until AFTER something horrible happens. That is just dumb.
glenn : Kes–good one on the gun nuts!
glenn : CL–sorry, I got carried away.
funksands : Ad, for sure. Give China a billion hand guns with extended clips and sit back and watch the show
choicelady : funk – ARC is working here and nationally to create group homes for kids with autism when they’re adults. It works. MANY ARC supporters have adult autistic kids in them. LOTS of supervision of quality is needed, but so far, so good. They are doing great things for the developmentally disabled. Keep your hopes high!
AdLib : Other countries have mentally ill people and sociopaths but the prolific nature of guns in America make it more likely that they will be able to act out and kill people. So though we do need more resources on mental health, guns are the main reason these killings happen.
KQµårk 死神 : Sabreen this was another big result of Reagan’s greed is good America. His response to the mental healthcare crisis after all the vets came home after Vietnam was to put them all on the streets.
funksands : Sabreen, very true words indeed
kesmarn : And that is just not right, funk. We need to create alternatives.
glenn : sabreen-Ain’t that the truth? about the therapy, I mean.
funksands : There are two places for the mentally ill: Their parent’s home or jail. That’s where most kids like my son with autism will end up when their parents run out of money and/or health.
choicelady : kes – LOL!!! VERY fine indeed!
choicelady : glenn dear – you’re bordering on the metaphysical here! Arm chair, armless chair, gun in your underpants. Too much for me on a Friday night!
kesmarn : Well…it might save on the expense to the taxpayer for vasectomies for gun nuts (pun intended)…
KQµårk 死神 : CL I have high future expectations once people get use to Obamacare. It will help allot of problems like these with all the preventative care people can get including mental health care.
Sabreen60 : Too many states have cut back on funding mental health institutions and programs. So people who are mentally challenged are walking the streets. I heard a psych say there are more people with mentally unstable walking the streets then are in institutions. Also, from an early age children need to learn conflict resolution. In fact, adults need to learn. Too many people are angry because they think their lives are shitty and take it out on whomever. We need some serious therapy in this country.
choicelady : KT, kes – well then we can REALLY test whether the adage about big gun, tiny… Is it true?
kesmarn : Thanks again, c’lady. A couple of managers at the hospital have asked me to come back on an as-needed basis. We’ll see…
glenn : CL–Dirty Harry with his .357 magnum in his shorts talking to a chair. Would we have to arm the chair, too? Or, could it be an armless chair?
funksands : KQ, I hear Key West is looking for a king.
KQµårk 死神 : Actually Funk If I was King I would invade an island paradise and retire there but that’s just me.
choicelady : kes – Dirty Harry and his 357 Magnum in his shorts? LOL!!!
funksands : How about all guns you want, but they must be painted in a rainbow color?
KillgoreTrout : Hey, is that a gun in your pants, or are you just glad to see me?
bito : Wow, working for a hospice group is a huge jump!
kesmarn : Anytime, funk. That should be nice and comfy for ‘em when they carry to church and sit on those wooden pews.
choicelady : KQ – Not a bad idea! BTW – last I heard, federal health reform makes MENTAL health equal in coverage to physical health. Can you imagine how much good that can do????? No limits on your coverage!
KillgoreTrout : bito, we really need to change the old mindset that if guns illegal, only criminals will have guns. That is the basic, most used reason against gun laws. There are things we need to do too. Like promoting the social contract and some form of secular spirituality, and of course mental illness.
funksands : Kes, good idea!
kesmarn : And if it’s concealed carry, funk, it must be in your underwear.
glenn : Hi KQ–Some states would try to circumvent; perhaps we need to work on the ones who won’t. I do think you have hit on part of the problem.
choicelady : kes- GO for it!!! If you get bored, you can do private nursing, work for a hospice group, do public health clinics part time – but getting your life for YOU is a GOOD thing!
funksands : If I was king, I’d let everyone own as many guns as they want. But for every gun you own you have to strap a 50 pound weight to your back.
choicelady : funk – the myths of the frontier loom. John Wayne has a LOT to answer for. Most people had no guns on the frontier – too costly. The OK Corral was exceptional. Shootouts are Hollywood ONLY, and today we have Rambo wannabes who would be the first to hit the dirt. Life is not fiction. Wishful thinking is dangerous.
bito : And I would say to the states” What, you guys want to suoourt the criminals with your lax ammo laws, kT
KillgoreTrout : kes, that’s all any of us can do. All we really have is today. Yesterday’s gone and tomorrow hasn’t arrived yet.
kesmarn : c’lady…in short. ASAP.
KQµårk 死神 : I can cut down gun violence in 5 minutes if I was King. Tax MJ use and put it toward psych treatment.
choicelady : kes – do you have a time frame for retiring?
kesmarn : “Give me a tired, run-down, overworked, powerless, poor population and drown it in guns and see what happens.” You said it, funk. Brilliant!
kesmarn : I’m taking it one day at a time, KT.
KQµårk 死神 : AdLib ammo limits are about the only place I think gun control laws would have a big affect but again it’s something states would try to circumvent.
funksands : Give me a tired, run-down, overworked, powerless, poor population and drown it in guns and see what happens
KillgoreTrout : Hang in there kes. You may be stronger than you think.
glenn : AdLib–Not that I disagree with him, but isn’t it sad that our comedians, such as Chris Rock, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, are the ones to actually distill all the bullshit down to what are sometimes the best solutions?
choicelady : AdLib – LOL!!! Public Policy via Chris Rock!!! It’s a GREAT suggestion! He’s right that gang bangers at least would think twice about expending $5 on some idiot. VERY smart idea!
funksands : Guns are just another form of prescription drug. To soothe anxiety, fear, detachment, helplessness.
Sabreen60 : Nite Murph. Take care.
kesmarn : Thanks, c’lady. It seemed to be time.
KQµårk 死神 : CL there are allot of socioeconomic reasons why states have less violence. I’m not saying gun laws won’t help at all but gun violence is a complex problem that ends and the point of a gun but has many beginnings.
choicelady : Oh kes – of COURSE you’re strong! But after all these years retirement is your due. That is not copping out at all!
funksands : Ad, I was just thinking about that Chris Rock line.
AdLib : Night Murph!
AdLib : Glenn – I have a solution. Heavily regulate ammo, register who buys it, keep that and gunpowder heavily regulated so people can’t make their own ammo without our knowing who made it. Guns may be protected by the 2nd Amendment, ammo is not. And what good is any gun without ammo? And this would force up the price. Remember Chris Rock’s bit about making the price of bullets $5 so people would really think about it and say, “Fuck it, it’s not worth shooting that guy.” Make ammo very expensive and watch shootings go down.
choicelady : Good night Murph – sorry we did not even get to say hi!
kesmarn : As a matter of fact, I’m in the retirement pipeline, KT. I think I have just about maxed out! So –maybe not that strong…
KillgoreTrout : Take care Murph.
choicelady : KT – on THAT I think most people agree. It may be easier to regulate clips than guns though – and that would help though good ol’ boys probably can alter them. We used to outlaw machine guns (anti-mob stuff) so why not semi-automatic that can be altered so easily?
glenn : ‘Night Murph.
KillgoreTrout : kes, you must have strong mind, to see all that suffering as part of your job. I can’t imagine.
kesmarn : Good night, Murph. Take care.
choicelady : KQ – I saw on RAchel tonight that more gun violence occurs in states without tough laws. The pro-gun meme is that “no gun zones” are where all the deaths occur. Not true. Most occur in free carry states and areas. When we HAD tough laws they worked BUT they have been so lax for so long that the conduits for illegal weapons are well established. You cannot unring a bell. It may be too late just to have more laws. That said, I’m working with Mayor Bloomberg’s office on S 822 to stop the softening of laws so that if you’re from a lax state, your laws prevail in a tough one. What a stupid violation of federalism! Libertarian narcissism is the only rule for the Right anymore! “What I want is what I am entitled to!”
MurphTheSurf3 : Need to go…sorry…I will review the rest of the discussion later. Take care all.
kesmarn : The President looked like he meant business today, AL.
AdLib : Sabreen – Well said, right with you all the way down the line. The people need to step up and force the politicians to address this gun escalation and murder in the country. And President Obama now has no re-election to get in his way of championing this.
glenn : Sabreen–this has been the problem for a long time with trying to enact gun control laws. Where do you begin? How do you get come up with a sensible solution to the guns already out in the market? We’ve had this problem since Regan was shot, and, in my opinion, we haven’t made one bit of progress. One could say we’ve actually regressed, especially in light of today’s tragedy.
kesmarn : KT, I can only have a dim awareness of what it must be like. There were times in nursing when I wondered if I was going in that direction. You see some bad stuff.
Sabreen60 : KQ, yes.
KillgoreTrout : That’s exactly right kes. I have been treated for it now for over ten years.
funksands : Our little guy is about hugged out.
kesmarn : c’lady, my heart goes out to you and to them. A burden to carry for sure.
choicelady : Hey funk – hope you’re OK. I agree – give your kids a big hug!
KQµårk 死神 : You mean 200,000K sabreen.
funksands : Kes, you know it. I didn’t even know about the events today until my wife called me. She was in tears and insisted I go pick up our 8 year old from school. She calmed down a bit, but she’s devastated
KQµårk 死神 : Yup CL and Conn has some of the stiffer gun laws in the country. With the US’ obsession with states rights there is not much you can do on a national level. Even the so call assault riffle ban would have not stopped what happened all the gunman would need to do is carry more clips.
Sabreen60 : Hi Funk.
kesmarn : They’re saying it often follow a “horrifying experience” and the fear of its happening again.
KillgoreTrout : Hey funk.
Sabreen60 : I’m all for gun control laws. But what in the world do we do about the 200K guns already out there? I read where the majority of people polled want reasonable gun laws – even those who belong to the NRA. It seems that it’s the officials at NRA who want to arm everyone. Also, I read where there are only 4 million registered NRA members. Those of us who want stricter laws and enforcement need to call, write and visit our Congressional Reps. President Obama cannot do this by himself.
AdLib : CL – But part of being a corporation is only caring about short term gains even if they mean long term destruction.
choicelady : kes – you know some of my story. I STILL have PTSD 14 years later! The worst – and for kids this is awful – is that I have learned NOT to react visibly to what scares me. That supression will eat at those kids – they NEED to let it out! I hope they get real help quickly!
KillgoreTrout : kes, that is another serious effect of this tragedy. PTSD is a chronic mental health issue. These poor kids who witnessed and survived this shooting will have a hard, long, long road ahead of them. No child should have to start a life this way.
glenn : kes–how sad that little kids have to deal with PTSD.
bito : The positive side is treatments to go to, KQ
kesmarn : Good evening, funk. Give those kiddos of yours a hug tonight, no?
AdLib : Hey Sabreen, nice to see you.
funksands : Evening everyone.
AdLib : KQ, great to see you though it is otherwise a sad day.
choicelady : KQ – one person said we need better mental health treatment, and that’s quite true. We also need better screening of permits for guns. But apparently this young man took his mother’s guns. What can stop that? Nothing. Maybe if he had gotten help for his delusions (I think his brother said he had mental problems, too.) I don’t know.
kesmarn : Charlie Rose is on PBS in the background and they’re discussion post-traumatic stress syndrome. Surely these kids are going to be battling that for a while. It’s going to take a long time…
KQµårk 死神 : Still a little ouchy from my last procedure but anxious to start this new treatment next week.
bito : Hey, KQ! How’s it going brother?
choicelady : Murph – I just heard that, but I know tons of people with Asperger’s – they are not violent. Now those WITH Asperger’s are going to be stigmatized! Never mind full out autism!
KillgoreTrout : CL, that’s the only thing that makes sense to me.
KQµårk 死神 : We all deal in our own way I guess. There are good days and bad days. This is one of the worst in a while. I for one think there is no answer to the problem of violence in America on any level. They system is set up so government can’t do more than be reactionary.
glenn : KT–I agree. This recent election has truly pushed them over the edge. Plus, all of their hyprocrisy is coming home to roost and they’re helpless to stop it. Which, of course, is a good thing–that they can’t stop the tide of sane people who have spoken in the election.
choicelady : kes – oh, I did not see that interview! I’d have broken up, too! OMG.
choicelady : KT – I think you’re right. I could not fathom it – that much racism – but I believe you.
choicelady : glenn – you’ve nailed the violence of their hypocrisy. ACA was VOTED on after all due deliberation. They disregarded their own laws, Constitution, process to get their way. THAT is the great divide. There are those of us who follow legal process, and those of them who do not.
KillgoreTrout : Evening KQ!
Sabreen60 : Hey KQ. Awful day. So sad.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, has told authorities that his younger brother was autistic, has Aspergers and had a severe personality disorder. Long term care has been hard to come by since he left high school. Our mental health system at work.
kesmarn : I really had hard time with one interview with a little kid — so small he was still saying “powiceman” instead of “policeman.” It just broke my heart.
bito : US Const. The US const. doesnt haave anything setting up political system’s so I guess mini-dictators are just fine
KillgoreTrout : CL, I doubt their illness could be found in any medical journals, but the GOP/TP suffers very much from Obama Derangement Syndrome. I mean it. They are so crazed by having a black man in the whitehouse, they have literally gone collectively insane.
choicelady : Hi KQ – indeed. How do you deal with this? (You in the plural, not you personally.)
choicelady : Sabreen, KT, kes – I was crying, too. Babies. Just horrid.
glenn : AdLib–I just can’t wrap my head around it. And the sad thing is that it’s been happening for a while, and there doesn’t seem to be a way to stop the GOP. They talk about Obamacare being “shoved down their throats”; yet in MI (I think it was MI again), they rammed that anti-union legislation through in record time! Sure wish the republicans/tpar tiers would work that quickly in Congress to settle the “fiscal cliff”.
kesmarn : Absolutely, KQ.
KQµårk 死神 : Hello all. Tough day huh?
bito : There is nothing in the Federal/US Const. that tells states how they have to set up their Const. So Mich, can put any damn thing in there they want, as long as it doesn’t violate the us
choicelady : AdLib – in the short run, of course. But are they truly that dumb they don’t see the long run destruction of their own party, selves, interests? That just boggles my mind. Part of being an adult is looking at LONG TERM consquences, not just immediate gratification.
KillgoreTrout : Hi Sabreen, I’ve been walking around stunned, most of the day, on the verge of tears.
kesmarn : Hey, Sabreen. I was in tears on and off for about two hours. This one just seems to be too poignant for words. They were babies.
choicelady : Hi SAbreen – we understand. EVeryone here is numb. Twnety CHILDREN? This is the horror of Nickel Mines, of the Torah school – who kills KIDS????
AdLib : CL – You know the answer to your question, all of the callous destruction of the lives of Americans that comes from RW legislation benefits the corporations who bought those politicians. They are a disease in the body politic and truly need to be excised.
Sabreen60 : Hi everyone. Another very sad day. This was one of the saddest I can remember. I was out most of the day running errands and listening to music in the car and didn’t learn of this horrible event until after the President had spoken. I was just in shock. No way could I go to Zumba this evening. I haven’t been able to do much of anything.
choicelady : glenn – funny thing is, I think many of us HAVE found the positive over the past years. It won’t stop everything we see that’s ugly, but we are starting to talk differently about every single thing. We aren’t scared to talk about ending gun violence by advocating abolishing guns. We are now being sensitive to others, being responsible in what WE say, and I think it’s making a difference.
bito : They do have a reason AdLib, to be anti-Obama and anti-Dem. That is the GOP
glenn : bito–I know that state constitutions differ. I actually was talking about the state constitution. Can there really be something in a state constitution that allows dictators? I’m just trying to figure out how they can get away with this.
KillgoreTrout : Ad, I’ve been saying that for a long time now. Today’s GOP are far right radicals and not even close to what was once seen as modern conservatism. Every time some GOPer refers to him/her self as conservative, should be immediatelt challenged.
choicelady : AdLib – Yup. My sister-in-law taught near there, so this got very edgy today. If you gave her a gun…she’s shoot her eye out. The idea that we’re the wild wild west and packin’ heat is the way to live – what nut job actually HAS succeeded in shooting his or her way out of trouble? Story recently that a guy in Tucson who HAD a gun when Giffords was shot took aim on the shooter only to be pulled back – he was aiming at the WRONG PERSON. He would have shot and killed the man disarming the shooter. Wow.
AdLib : Glenn – I’m with you, how can it be constitutional in MI to wipe out a democratically elected mayor and shove in a political czar in his place? Sounds more like Russia or a third world nation, not America?
kesmarn : c’lady, I think there are people whose goal is to have the closest thing to a slave labor force that they can get and a very healthy prison industry for the “uncooperative. ” Sadly.
glenn : CL–Let’s hope we can find the goodness and the positive soon.
AdLib : Murph – I’m all for that, the GOP needs to be outed for the insanity they have come to embody. There is no reason for decent people to be Republicans, none. They have abandoned every principle in their quest for power and money. They need to have their image as “conservatives ” ripped off of them, they are radicals, not conservatives.
choicelady : EVeryone – I’ve been seriously challenged over the past year to understand how people can be so callous and mean. What does it get them? MI and its relentless drive to do harm to their residents (esp. Black people) and undermine the strength of others (unions) by imposing stupid laws that cannot work. WHAT does it accomplish and who benefits other than a bit in the short term?
kesmarn : You’ve got me on that one, b’ito. (By the way I didn’t mean to be flippant earlier on such a sobering day. Sorry…)
bito : Does anyone know what, if any, is said about state constitutions in the Federalist Papers?
kesmarn : That’s a good question, AdLib. And they’ve set up some of this stuff with “anti-referendu m” and “anti-recall” measures built into the bills. Pretty awful stuff.
AdLib : CL – I was invoking your name and you appeared! Yep, arming teachers and having a shoot out in the classrook sure would have been safer for those kids.
KillgoreTrout : Nicely put, CL.
bito : Glenn There is nothing in the constitution that tell a state how and what they have to have in their constitution. One of hose things that the funding fathers ass-u-me ned ?
choicelady : Hi bito – thought of you when I remember Tucson today. Hope you’re well – that must bring back pain. I’m sorry.
AdLib : Kes – Sorry, I was thinking OH while you were describing MI, which is being thrashed and trashed by a cold and cruel RW. What can be passed can be repealed by a Dem legislature and Gov, the question is, will the Repub gerrymandering prevent MI from taking back their government in 2014?
choicelady : glenn – oh, I know you’re just commenting. I am SO glad I did not hear him. That kind of mentality is despicable!!
choicelady : Hi AdLib, glenn, bito, kes, KT, and Murph! I was challenged today indeed. Although I’m not ordained (who’d have me?) I know there is a spiritual dimension to life that moves me. KT has found it, others follow their own lights. But when 20 little children are slaughtered, it’s hard to find the divine, the spiritual good, the positive. Humans do gravely awful things. The power of good lies in our coming together to be affirmative, to grieve the children, and to find ways for there never to be more. IF there is a sentient being or if it’s just us, together, there is a clear move toward goodness and the positive. And we here can find it and help move us forward to something better. But I am grieving for those children and their beated, violated, destroyed, distraught parents and famlies. How dreadful for them all.
KillgoreTrout : kes, I don’t have the training to really discuss mental health aspects of this, but I do have some suggestions for schools and parents.
kesmarn : glenn, glad to hear that Rachel took up the issue of the “emergency managers” in MI. Definitely not democratic in any way.
kesmarn : KT, sorry I didn’t mean to ignore your comment below on trying to figure out why young men “snap” like this. I do think we should try to understand what happens there.
glenn : CL–I agree; that’s what I was taught about god. I’m not saying I agree with what Huckabee said; just commenting on it.
bito : Very nice, C’lady, very. Hello
KillgoreTrout : Hey CL, I hoe all is well, except for this horrible tragedy.
kesmarn : That’s a very interesting strategy, Murph. Because even the “good” Repubs are complicit by their cowardly silence.
MurphTheSurf3 : kes- I was speaking with some activist friends who suggested that what is need is a “Out the GOP” movement. “Out” them as in exposing them for the anti-democratic party of, by, and for the rich and the fundamentalist. “Out” them as in removing everyone with a “R” behind their name on the basis that no matter how good the individual might be his/her association to the GOP is sufficient cause to cast them out of office or keep them from office.
glenn : Hi AdLib–and Kes–Rachel Maddow did an excellent piece on the “emergency managers” in MI way before the elections. I don’t understand why this so-called law is not in the courts as unconstitutional . How can you send in “dictators” in place of the locally elected officials?
choicelady : Evening all – I must say when I listen to the gun nuts I’m tempted to write a book, “When Good Things Happen to Bad People”. I think there’s a call for that! I’m horrified at how many posts I’ve read today blaming teachers for this – for not carrying guns.
kesmarn : Good to see you, c’lady. We need a little of that hope and recovery right about now.
AdLib : Hi Glenn – Not that it isn’t to be expected but the callousness of such religious frauds like Huckabee is still a bit amazing. At a time like this, they basically absolve the murderer and availability of guns and blame their political pinata of separation of church and state for the murder? These are unholy people, wish Choicelady was here to lay them out on their unChristian ways.
choicelady : Hi everyone – apparently God told me to log in right now. Churchlady to the rescue! Glenn – God did nothing. God is the spirit of hope and recovery, of love and renewal. I’d refer anyone who has questions to the wonderful book by Rabbi Kushner, “When Bad Things Happen to Good People”. It’s spectacular. G-d does NOT harm children. G-d is not a vengeful person. YaaaaWeeeehhhhhh uuuuh – YWEH – the breath of life and love and being. Not of anger and hate and spite. The world has people for that. Be still and know God is.
kesmarn : AdLib, I guess I should clarify. That’s all happening in Michigan. All we in Ohio can do is stand by helplessly and watch. But with MI and IN now right-to-work states, it makes things hard for Ohio labor.
glenn : Hi Murph–Well, blaming god for this takes away personal responsibility– so it’s not their actions, or lack of them, we can just blame it on “godlessness”.
AdLib : Kes – I can’t believe there’s not more public outrage in OH with government czars being propped up and democratically elected mayors being thrown out. How can this all be happening without people in an uproar? If they’re fearful, that is scary, that’s how fascists held onto power.
KillgoreTrout : It sure is glenn.
MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- Michigan is an example to the nation. Lawless government using the law as an intrument of oppression. What steps are being considered.
KillgoreTrout : bito, like I said before, there have been so many conflicting reports. All these “reporters trying to get the scoop before all the facts are in.
glenn : Hi KT–The lack of critical thinking, logic, and just plain common sense is apalling, isn’t it?
MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn- Where is God in all of this? Not in the actions of the day on either side. Present, as you understand him/her/they to be, in the compassion, outreach and anger. It is hard for people to face but we really are responsible for what happens in the world. Huckabee and his fellow fundamentalist travelers are agents of the anti-christ in pronouncements like the one you allude to.
kesmarn : Two words for them, glenn: “Jesus wept.”
bito : KT, and anybody/everybod y MoJO as a post up of “Just the facts ma’am” and they update it. They are usually quite reliable, and I have them up in another tab «link» Hi mother was a schoolteacher, KT
glenn : Hi Kes. Unbelievable, isn’t it? I’ve heard about a “vengeful god”, but to take vengence (sp.?) on kindergarteners?
KillgoreTrout : Hey glenn. These religious assholes just need to shut the fuck up. They say god is all loving, and in the next breath say he seeks revenge by allowing these tragedies to occur. Just plain nuts.
MurphTheSurf3 : Bito- there were no new tweets or facebook entries from the time of the first reports until I last checked an hour ago. Total lockdown on any and all comments
kesmarn : Hey, glenn…we were just talking about that. What kind of “God” would punish kindergarteners?
glenn : Hello to all. Such a sad day. I’ve seen lots of comments about the right wing’s “take” on this day. Huckabee says it’s because we “took god out of our schools.” So we took god out of our schools, and he made this happen. Their “logic” just totally escapes me.
kesmarn : “We’ve” not “We’re” …sorry can’t type tonight.
kesmarn : Ohioans are scared, AdLib. We’re successfully opposed our Repubs on many issues. But Michigan is just getting rolled over. Detroit itself is about to be taken over by the state.They will throw out the mayor and put in their own man. It’s frightening.
bito : Murph, what do you mean the twitter accounts have been inactive?
AdLib : Kes – Are Ohioans angry and upset at what’s going on? Could they turn over the Legislature and Governor’s office in 2014?
kesmarn : No problem, b’ito. I know how it is with those Friday night parties you throw…
KillgoreTrout : Kes, another issue to be addressed, as you so rightly suggested is why are so many of our young men turning into mass murders. That is obviously a question that needs to be answered and dealt with.
bito : Sorry, k’es i got called away from the hot action
AdLib : Murph – I think cognitive dissonance is the term. These people have to hold on so strongly to a lie about the holiness of guns, they just can’t reconcile reality with it.
kesmarn : Michigan has just gone insane with this lame duck session. “Right to Work” passed. Abortions almost impossible to obtain. Guns, and finally at 4:30 a.m. making recall of elected officials more difficult.
AdLib : Hey Bito, isn’t it just appalling? In the last couple of years we’ve had a US House of Representatives member shot, kindergarteners, movie patrons, shoppers at malls, a kid just buying Skittles at the market…and the flow of legislation is to allow more and more guns and excuses for allowing people to murder other people? Enough is enough!
KillgoreTrout : Who would Jesus shoot, eh?
kesmarn : Yes, witness what just happened in Michigan. They just passed a bill allowing guns in churches and schools.
KillgoreTrout : no doubt Ad. It’s just scary that people like that even exist in America. Without doubt, insane.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…agree with you re. the insanity of the right….and how they need to be ignored, but they control nearly half of our state governments.
AdLib : KT – The only way to deal with crazy people like those is to ignore them when it comes to legislation. They should not be given any influence in our society, they are insane.
MurphTheSurf3 : I stopped my little town’s “social club” i.e. bar tonight before going home. The topic of the night was today’s shooting. Lots of these rural folks arguing of the dangers of gun control and at the same of the horror of the events since schools in our area are still wide open. The more they talked, the more confused they all got.
kesmarn : Oh, and hey, b’ito. Yes, I remember hearing that about the Gifford’s shooting. When it’s all unfolding, it’s hard to make a clear judgment.
kesmarn : Paranoia on top of paranoia. It’s surreal.
AdLib : Murph – Just as with the Baggers and Birthers, there is no reasoning with the extremists on the Right. If Reagan came back to life and was shot by a gun nut, they would still find a way of saying that it just proves Dems and Obama are responsible. As was stated below, the GOP is NOT the party of personal responsibility, they do everything they can, contort in every way possible to avoid it.
KillgoreTrout : I’ve seen some right wing nuts suggest that the government is behind these killings in order to make it easier to pass stricter gun laws. How does one deal with such blatant insanity?
kesmarn : So some “analyst” was implying that the possibility of losing one’s guns would make someone go out and shoot a bunch of kids, hence this is all Obama’s fault??? Good lord! Is there anything that isn’t??
bito : The fellow at the Gabby shooting, said he was just about ready to shoot the wrong person when someone stopped him. One anecdote, meet another.
KillgoreTrout : Jesus, when will the assholes learn?
AdLib : Murph – The answer to assholes like this is, “The killer took the guns from his mom. Bring guns to school and killers can take guns right at the school.”
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…I was at the hospital all day getting a treatment and heard lots of comments about this day. One of the worst: “Beck warned us. Obama’s going after our guns was going to drive some people crazy. Here you are.”
kesmarn : Unbelievable.
MurphTheSurf3 : First NRA Voices: Steve Dulan, a board member for the Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners who is supporting a state bill that would allow concealed weapons in schools and other gun-free zones, said Friday that having armed teachers inside Sandy Hook Elementary School would have, “if not prevented, then perhaps minimized,” the tragedy.
kesmarn : Some of the schools in Toledo did have Toledo police officers assigned and it was a tremendous help in many ways, KT. But then along came the Tea Party mayor and budget cuts…
KillgoreTrout : Ad, the party of personal responsibility is anything but. They always blame everyone but themselves.
KillgoreTrout : I do think that our schools should have armed, trained security guards. It’s a sad state of affairs, but we have security guards at banks. Our children are worth a lot more than money.
AdLib : Murph – The GOP is a vicious parody of itself. It is now nakedly opposed to 98% of Americans, supportive of racism, supportive of the mass killing of Americans…Jesu s, what has to happen for people to see that party for the monster it has become?
KillgoreTrout : Damn Murph. Just when you think they have hit rock bottom, they manage to go even lower.
kesmarn : For the RW the answer to violence is always more violence.
MurphTheSurf3 : Kes…absolutely
MurphTheSurf3 : KT- Fox also ran with the line that what the schools needed was more armed staff and that the liberals have been attacking security in schools because such measures were promoting an overly restricted environment.
kesmarn : Murph, I don’t doubt that if these Chinese attackers had access to the kind of firepower that Americans have, we would be reading some even more horrific stories.
MurphTheSurf3 : kes…and in the China attack the man was cornered by a group of chair wielding teachers until the security guards posted in their schools arrive. China has had a whole series of these attacks in the last year.
KillgoreTrout : Damn FOX is filled with the sleaziest people.
KillgoreTrout : We, as a people and as a society are ultimately responsible. Sure, I put a lot of responsibility on the NRA and the GOP. I’m sorry I haven’t done more to promote tougher gun laws. You can bet I won’t remain complacent any longer.
kesmarn : Of course, FOX apparently ran with a story of a school attack today in China (to “prove” that this happens everywhere — their latest argument). The guy in China used a knife. The thing is no one of the victims died in China, so they kind of inadvertently made our point.
kesmarn : Preachers who imply otherwise should just join Westboro Baptist, where they believe in a punitive god (who resembles Satan quite a bit).
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….the GOP in all its forms has become a cesspool for all that is horrid and horrifying in our society. Where are the GOP voices today….silent. ..standing in solidarity with the NRA….
KillgoreTrout : Absolutely Murph.
kesmarn : God is grieved as well. I agree, Murph.
AdLib : KT – This is about one thing, the greed of the gun industry and the manipulation of people and laws that make rampant murder a normal occurrence in America.
MurphTheSurf3 : KT- Where is God in all of this? Not in the actions of the day on either side. Present, as you understand him/her/they to be, in the compassion, outreach and anger. It is hard for people to face but we really are responsible for what happens in the world-
kesmarn : Sorry “He’d” not “He’s”
kesmarn : That preacher (Fischer was his name I think) ought to just join Westboro Baptist. He’s fit right in.
AdLib : KT – I agree, Obama in a second term is free to pursue this without the NRA being able to threaten him.
KillgoreTrout : I think the religious nuts should just leave god out of this. Where was god this morning?
kesmarn : It is hard to take it all in. It was well into the afternoon before I knew what was going on. Couldn’t believe it.
AdLib : Hey Kes, nice to see you but yes, a very tragic day.
KillgoreTrout : Hey kes. What a sickening day. I got up as usual, made a nice cup of coffee and sat down at my computer, and the first reports of this hellish incidents were on Yahoo. I was literally stunned. Just three day after the mall shootings in Portland. Just unreal.
kesmarn : And yes…ABC reported that the mom was a teacher’s aide.
AdLib : …I don’t think that’s going to happen this time.
AdLib : Murph – This is their typical strategy, answer no questions and be silent immediately after a tragedy then come out a few days later wailing, “This is a time to honor the victims, this isn’t the right time for finger pointing.” Then they will repeat that until the public forgets how angry they are…though I don’t think that
KillgoreTrout : Obama really has nothing to lose in telling congress he wants drastic changes to our gun laws.
kesmarn : A sad Friday evening. Predictably at least one RW preacher is saying that “God won’t go where he’s not invited,” implying that prayer in school would have prevented these. Talk about cruelty.
KillgoreTrout : Reports are conflicting right now, but they say the mother was not a teacher, but possibly a volunteer at the school. I guess she was divorced and maybe thought she needed the extra security that she thought such an arsenal would bring.
AdLib : KT – I’d bet on Monday we’ll hear from Rush, Fox and the NRA on “Guns don’t kill people”, “2nd Amendment rights” and “we don’t need new laws, just enforce the existing laws”. And don’t forget the line, “Obama will use this as an excuse to take all our guns away!” No doubt, Rush already has that in his Monday script.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib, KT, the NRA Twitter and Facebook accounts have been inactive all day. Requests from the media for comment have been ignored. Calls to the offices go unanswered.
KillgoreTrout : I wonder how long it will be before Limbaugh starts running his fat jowls about 2nd amendment rights.
AdLib : I mean kindergarten.
AdLib : KT – The mother could have been raised in a RW Repub household and could have been pro-gun and anti-regulation. Just because someone teaches pre-school doesn’t mean they aren’t gun people. I don’t think a woman would buy two guns and a rifle unless she liked guns.
KillgoreTrout : The media reported that those guns were registered to the kid’s mother. Why on earth would she want such fire power? I think maybe the mother too was not very psychologically sound.
AdLib : Things have gotten so bad with corporate control of legislation…or blocking it…that so many extreme situations have been arising recently. The economic crash in 2008, the increase in mass killings and gun violence…the GOP, ALEC, the NRA and others have legislated destruction against the American people.
KillgoreTrout : If I were a spokesman for the NRA, I wouldn’t show my face for a long, long time.
AdLib : KT – And yesterday, the MI legislature passed a law allowing guns to be carried at schools. Sick.
AdLib : I assume the NRA BS is already out around the media, has anyone heard their regurgitations of their same old BS today or are they laying low until the Sunday shows or Monday?
KillgoreTrout : Just yesterday, I was on a thread about the shootings in Portland, and somebody wrote that it will only another month or two before another tragic shooting took place. It’s only bee THREE DAYS since the mall shootings in Portland. Just unfucking believable.
AdLib : Hey KT, a very sad day indeed.
AdLib : Hi Murph. A very tragic day and another reminder of the destruction that is brought to our society by corporate controlled government.
KillgoreTrout : What a terrible day. Hey Ad, and Murph.
MurphTheSurf3 : Hi- arrived a bit early. Another sad day in the Life of America. NRA twitter and facebook accounts inactive all day.
AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!