Vox Populi – 12-7-2012

AdLib is online.
  • AdLib : See you then, Sally!

  • SallyT : Okay, I’m out the door. See you later around here somewhere!

  • SallyT : Never understood that either, AdLib.

  • AdLib : Sally, looks like we’re closing down the Vox Populi bar once more together. Thanks so much, time to turn out the lights I think, grab a bottle of whatever you’d like and have a great weekend!

  • AdLib : Whoops, missed that Murph had checked out, a belated goodnight to you, Murph!

  • AdLib : Sally – It still bewilders me how the majority of Repubs are poorer, rural white folks who haven’t a prayer of becoming millionaires…b ut in a disconnected way, imagine that they somehow will some day so they obliviously fight as the army of the wealthy. Poorly educated people in denial about reality and their being manipulated. I do feel bad for them, if only they had been taught critical thinking and had a good education, they wouldn’t be angry, limited in job potential and easily manipulated.

  • AdLib : Night CL! Get some rest this weekend! Welcome back to Cali! And turn that dehumidifier off as soon as it’s done!

  • SallyT : Did you watch the video that he did for the Teacher’s Union or the one with Hannity?

  • AdLib : Sally, I will watch that video. I appreciate his saying straight up in the media what we say to each other.

  • SallyT : See you later around here CL! I’ll stay dry, I think…….

  • AdLib : Sally,

  • choicelady : Well dear friends, I am absolutely knackered and am about nuts from the elephant-sized dehumidifier blasting in my ear for over three hours how. I think I’m turning IT off and taking myself to bed. Have a GREAT weekend everyone – Sally stay dry if you can! See you all next week I hope. Murph – get better? I’m sorry you’ve been unwell and hopeyou heal quickly. Good night!

  • SallyT : Good night, Murph.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice I will spend some time reading up on Mondragon…grea t lead. Thank you. And goodnight.

  • SallyT : AdLib, watch that video of Asner’s when you have time. It is cute but it is so true. Explains how the wealthy got us to believe how we all will be rich like them someday so we have to let them win now because someday that will be us! BUT, we are getting smart, as the video shows.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Well folks…time to fold my tent. Been nice being back with you tonight. Thanks for conversation.

  • choicelady : Murph – OUR level of CEO pay? Yes. Mondragon votes on pay. The top manager of the whole corporation gets 9 times what the assembly person does. If he or she on the floor gets 100 E a week, he or she at the top gets 900 E. Instead of 900,000!!! Most Mondragon managers make 7 times more. And ALL of them in the corporation – all 83,000 – VOTED ON THOSE PAY SCALES. It is hugely successful but no one will EVER get stinking rich at any of those jobs.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL Left out a key word. CL- Know someone who works in Germany in upper level management. He says the big bosses there consider the level of CEO pay here “a crime”.

  • AdLib : I do think the whole trickle down and job creator BS, supporting the real class war going on is being destroyed. If Obama succeeds as anticipated in raising rates on the wealthy and presiding over an improved economy, it really could be a death blow to the whole argument for giving to the wealthy. The GOP’s central reason to exist will cease to exist.

  • SallyT : That is right, AdLib. That is what I meant.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL- Know someone who works in Germany in upper level management. He says the big bosses there consider the level of CEO pay “a crime”.

  • choicelady : AdLib – you nailed it. MBA studies all presume that the firm – be it a steel mill or a bank – is identical to every other firm. The MBA holder is horrified to discover it’s not true, and that they do NOT understand how to shift their thinking when they move from corporation to corporation. So they kill them off as they go – they don’t “manage” so much as “pillage” for the short term bottom line. MBAs are killing American ingenuity, know how, and drive.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib and Sally- the GM at the costco I know began as a stocker at the company 25 years ago. He went to college in a Costco cooperative program and paid back his loans while working. Intersting Wal Mart had such a program long ago.

  • AdLib : MBAs are only taught about how to make money, not how to oversee a long term sustainable system.

  • choicelady : Murph – yes a little. Used to teach a course in post-war political economy of France, UK, Germany. All European nations (save from Thatcher on in the UK) did this, and it has been quite to their advantage. Mondragon shows how successful one CAN be with integrated decision making – they have ZERO unemployment while Spain’s unemployment is 25% and climbing. Banding together makes for sustainable economics. But – it also means the rich do NOT get it ALL. Americans desiring to be the “rich and famous” cannot bring themselves to share, and sharing IS the foundation of stability.

  • SallyT : MBA’s are corporate taught.

  • AdLib : CL – Yes, read it and I think you are 100% right! If blue collar workers can do the job of the Harvard MBAs, the justification for paying them millions and giving them power evaporates. Of course it makes them mad.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally- Yes, WalMart has to accept delivery to its distribution warehouses from whoever drives its stuff in, but after that the system is all theirs.

  • choicelady : If you think about it, the GOP in gov’t AND in business is made up of, at best, the mediocre people. Being challenged by less well educated people who work for wages has GOT to make them nervous. Labor’s wisdom and knowledge show up the poorly educated and ignorant “leaders” who have to put labor down to lift themselves up.

  • SallyT : Oh, and Murph, there are the long shore men….

  • SallyT : Murph, that is WalMart for you! But, I know for a fact that there are Teamsters at several points before the WalMart trucks get to the terminals to load.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…do you know anything about the German system of governance for their big businesses? Planning councils made up of the owners, the unions, the financiers, and the government reps….everyone with skin in the game.

  • KillgoreTrout : Oh, you too my friend.

  • choicelady : Good night, KT! Have a lovely weekend!

  • AdLib : Murph – No question, the GOP is the party of killing the golden goose…IOW, greed over good business sense.

  • KillgoreTrout : Have a great night Ad.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally…WalMart handles that by having its own non-union drivers…

  • choicelady : AdLib – see my reply about anti-union sentiment. It’s all about ego and pretending labor is just a commodity and of no use to the company.

  • AdLib : Night Killgore!

  • SallyT : See you later, KT. And, I have a couple in there just for you. I’ll wait to see if you guess which they are.

  • choicelady : Sally – the view that labor is a commodity is very 19th century, and it did not work then and does not work now. Too many corporations wanted to break the Social Contract thinking it saved money. It does not, but you cannot get them to see it. Eastern AirLines had no profit from 1969-87 but GOT profitable when the IAM union got a seat on the Board AND got the airline to change how it did business based on their recommendations. Frank Borman (former astronaut) was SO angry that the UNION made money for the company when HE did not, he sold out to union buster Frank Lorenzo just for the ego issues. I am convinced that class warfare really comes down to the refusal to admit that blue collar people can and do know more about companies than managers whose MBAs never prepared them for the real world. It’s that stupid really.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…I have to believe that the GOP is driven by a lot of mindless ideology- and certainly the business approach that many of its biggest supporters embrace is one that is based on short term profit up against long term growth.

  • AdLib : It’s interesting, the spate of labor protests that have been going on. Teachers in Chicago, port workers in LA, Fast food workers and Walmart workers nationally…the re’s a real movement here that could be harnassed.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ah thanks Sally. I don’t doubt ya. I will say goodnight for now. take care and I’m looking forward to the Sunday Funnies.

  • SallyT : Without the teamsters, Murph, those truckloads of products won’t show up at Costco.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : At the Costco I have gotten to know the Teamsters have a strong presence. The Costco approach….give them a room to meet in and offer refreshments…. smart.

  • AdLib : Murph – So if Repubs are all about what’s best for business, what economic justification do they have for opposing unions and better pay and treatment of workers?

  • SallyT : You can confess to me anytime, KT. After a few drinks I might tell you a tale or two that might just shock the boots off ya!

  • SallyT : One of the biggest expenses for any company is employee turnover. You lose training time and experience. Why the attitudes of companies have changed about their employees has always surprised me.

  • KillgoreTrout : Wow, I feel like i just walked out of the confessional! Thanks for listening folks. Each one of you is dear to me.

  • choicelady : KT – as much as I detest my mother (she died some years ago) I DO know what it means to have parents who love each other, and that IS a gift even when troubles made it hard. That was good for us to see and have and learn about.

  • KillgoreTrout : That’s absolutely right CL. I can see why my mom loved him so. I just don’t know what sustained her through all the violence and trouble.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….the studies on comparative wages show that after 5 years of full time service a WalMart cashier will make 40 percent less than a Costco cashier…my experience mirrors yours.

  • SallyT : See you later on here, Kes! Have a good remainder of the night.

  • choicelady : kes – good night, stay dry! Have a good weekend!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sweet dreams kes.

  • kesmarn : KT, more proof of the power of reverse psychology on impulsive kids, I guess! G’night for now!

  • AdLib : Night Kes, sleep well!

  • choicelady : KT – my Dad was my best role model. He had Parkinsons for over 60 years but made a HUGE difference in the city of Chicago. He did research on the city’s economic standing and used data to pitch for employement and other forms of racial integration in the early 60s and for unions as essential parts of the manufacturing bargain. He really made things work for everyone then. My mother was the horror of my life – she was nuts and scary. Not always, not every moment. I never had a bad Christmas or other holiday because she did those things well – simple, fun, nice. But she started drinking after I was an adult, and she just ruined our family well being because of her self pity and alcoholism. She was a borderline personality, and while she had good liberal values, she was actually a nasty human being. But my Dad loved her deeply til the day she died, and I’ll never understand THAT any more than your mother loving your father. Not ours to understand, but ours to accept.

  • AdLib : Murph – Walmart sells much cheaper junk which is why prices are generally less. Costco has more quality products. As for profitability, Costco kicks Walmart’s butt. The turnover alone costs Walmart so much more and the huge advantage Costco has in productivity from employees who like their job and being treated well is part of what makes that the case.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally…On a store by store basis Costco makes significantly more (between 3 and 5 times that of a Walmart). Its stock does better too.

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, it’s funny you mention the Corps. My dad told me, about a week before i went to Parris Island, that I would never make it. He told me I just didn’t have it in me. All the while, he knew if he told me that, that I would do everything in my power to prove him wrong. And he was right.

  • kesmarn : Oh wow…12:15 here in rainy corn country. Time to call it a day, I guess. Hope everyone has a great weekend!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally- the difference in the quality of frozen foods (including how they are packaged) is incredible. I bought a top down freezer as a result.

  • SallyT : Costco makes more than WalMart? Are you sure?

  • kesmarn : Good to know, Murph. Sounds like a place where it’s good to go with a list in hand.

  • kesmarn : The Marine Corps must have seemed like a vacation after that, KT! It takes a lot of reflection to come to the place of forgiveness that you’ve reached.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes….mine is a bit of a drive as well BUT with good planning I shop there once a month and do what I used to do in three trips to WalMart. Buying in bulk, doing big purchases, etc. Costco prices are a bit higher than WalMart item to item but quality is better and there are significant big savings if you shop with care.

  • KillgoreTrout : Very well said CL!

  • choicelady : Murph – Sam is undoubtedly spinning in his grave over the actions of his thankless children! Costco IS leading the pack and is out-performing Wal-Mart financially, too. GREAT issue to glom onto, IMHO!

  • KillgoreTrout : My dad was really a great guy in so many ways. He just had a bad drinking problem and was insanely jealous of my mom. He thought there was a lover around every corner. My mom never cheated on him, but when he got blotto, you could never convince him otherwise. I had a great love/hate relationship with him most of my life. As I got older, i began to understand his life and his real devotion to his family. He made me tough, for sure.

  • choicelady : The GOP always calls itself “traditional values” but it is WE who hold up those basics: work is more valuable than investing; spiritual depth is more important than material goods; money does not buy happiness; working hard should pay and give us self sufficiency; democracy is for everyone, and on and on and on. WE define the traditional values. The GOP defines aristocratic wants based on capturing material wealth, period.

  • SallyT : Costco has higher quality of merchandise than WalMart.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…I can’t believe how long I missed out on this. A new passion…it is interesting to note that Sam Walton had a philosophy that when it was in place worked to make a good profit AND to treat employees as real partners. James Sinegal of Costco appears to have done a better job inculcating his board into his values AS the key to the brand success. Being a good neighbor leads to long term and stable profit.

  • AdLib : Agree completely on holding up Costco and Southwest as shining examples of the path towards a better and sustainable economic system. This slanted system that slides all the money into the hands of a few simply can’t be sustained indefinitely.

  • kesmarn : Murph, the more I read about Costco, the better I like it. There’s one in the area, but it’s a bit of a drive. I might just have to do it, though!

  • KillgoreTrout : Have a good night Glenn. It was nice getting to know you a bit more. Come back again.

  • SallyT : AdLib, where have you been? I was afraid I was going to have to clean up by myself tonight!

  • choicelady : Murph – I know the Costco/Wal-Mart Great Divide. I am working with union people and the Mondragon Spanish cooperative folks to bring union coops to CA to remove the outside forces that define human beings as commodities. Costco is great, Southwest Airlines is employee owned and managed, and those are the most profitable AND stable companies in America. They must be held up as models.

  • glenn : Sally–looking forward to them! Thanks. To everyone else–have a great weekend, too!

  • AdLib : Night Glenn!

  • KillgoreTrout : Thank you CL. Circumstance has really been very good to me.

  • kesmarn : Good night, glenn!

  • SallyT : Have a great weekend, Glenn! Watch for the Funnies, I have a couple in there just for you!

  • kesmarn : KT, have you ever heard Patrick Stewart (the actor) talk about his childhood? It sounds very similar. There are vids on YouTube, I believe. He said the same thing: that his mom really cared for his dad, even though he was frightening and violent at times.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Take care Glenn.

  • choicelady : glenn – good night, and have a great weekend!

  • kesmarn : I think it must be incredibly hard for the super rich to face the fact that one day it will all be gone. I mean that they’re actually mortal and literally can’t take it with them.

  • glenn : All–Getting late here on the east coast. G’night. Really enjoyed for the interesting, lively conversations here tonight. Hope to chat with you all next Friday.

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, my dad could be frightening at times, when he was blotto drunk. I still wonder to this day that my mom loved him so much, and still does, even though he passed in 04. They were together for 58 years.

  • SallyT : CL, I am Blackfoot in more ways than one!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…one of my new crusades involves Costco vs. Walmart. Why? How hard Costco works not to lay off its employees. I have gotten to know a number of its people from management down and the company says something about what we can do and be if we are willing to stretch a bit.

  • choicelady : KT – you simply defined “success” in very healthy ways.

  • choicelady : Sally – that’s a great life lesson!!! But even if you didn’t walk in your OWN much less someone else’s shoes, you have empathy, and that’s priceless!

  • choicelady : Murph – that is very good to see. We all have some kinds of resources IF we take advantage of them. A woman in Ohio I know cleans houses, lives in a trailer with her husband and daughter, her husband just got laid off from his seasonal job, so they have unemployment. She is VERY grateful for it. She is one of the happiest people I’ve ever met because she knows the value of everything. When we can band together, we succeed. Good for those of you who did that. You WILL have a wonderful life even if materially the circumstances are reduced.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, it’s weird, but I never really chased after money. I was too busy chasing after good times, living on the edge, that sort of thing. In a way, it kept me from being “successful,” but it was also a blessing in disguise. I live, happily, on very little.

  • SallyT : You know what they say, “You never know until you walk in the other person’s shoes.” I have been barefoot most of my life so I am just grateful no one steps on my toes!

  • kesmarn : I hear you, KT. My childhood wasn’t idyllic either, but I never came home from school to find one of my parents completely psycho. That has to be terrifying.

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, that has to be a big burden, at that age. But, what’s the alternative? Poor kids. I didn’t have the most tranguil upbringing, but at least my mom and dad weren’t zombies. They were always there for me and my brother and two sisters. Dad was a bit violent and abusive at times, but nothing like the parents that are are addicted to meth.

  • kesmarn : It always cracks me up to see Tea Baggers defending their Medicare by saying: “I paid money all those years, so this is just what I’ve earned.” Do they realize that on 4 day hospitalization could wipe out everything they’ve ever contributed in their lives? After that they’re on the public’s dime.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL….most, nearly all, of those I know say little about others in need. They are just dispirited. I, and a number of others in my coop had to accept the risks inherent in being uprooted, changing life styles and trying again. Terribly difficult but the five or six of us in our crowd of 30 or so, who did this feel as if we are engaged in society and not just waiting for death….

  • choicelady : KT – I was over 50 before I earned a salary with 5 figures on the left of the zeros! I learned to be happy with what I have instead of miserable about what I didn’t have. Now I am pretty confortable (except for the jet plane in my hallway THAT IS MAKING ME NUTS) and deeply grateful for it.

  • choicelady : Murph – see? The GOP are right!!! Safety nets DO make people lazy especially if they’re from privilege!!! LOL!!! I get it, but honestly if you are ON social supports a little gratitude that it’s there for you rather than pointing fingers at others WOULD seem the way to go!

  • KillgoreTrout : I really consider myself to be very fortunate that I was never wealthy.

  • kesmarn : Then the grandparents have to step in and raise them, KT. Nothing like full time parenting at age 60, no?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- I generally agree but a bunch of people I know just bailed out. They were so used to doing well without really having to take those risks you list…so they hung it up.

  • SallyT : Nope, KT, we just got spray and pills for the boys to take to kill the buggers!

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, that is really the tragic part, the unfortunate kids of these sick, sick people.

  • kesmarn : [smiley]

  • choicelady : Sally – you know sometimes fleas ARE real!!!!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, does your husband have a flea collar?

  • choicelady : Murph – I believe in the safety net and think it’s essential. After the job meltdown, SS sign ups soared – and it’s there for that reason. I have NO problem with my friend being on SS, Medicaid, and food stamps. I have a HUGE problem with her sneering at others with far worse problems (disability) and saying THEY are ripping the taxpayers off. My friend has paid NO taxes in years. What she makes is all under the table. So who is the grifter?

  • kesmarn : That’s it exactly, KT. The “bugs” thing is so common. And if there are kids in the picture, they’re badly neglected, naturally.

  • SallyT : KT, I had that happen to me this summer and then realized that my dog had fleas and brought them to bed with us!

  • glenn : Sally–sure hope it does bite them. However, I worry that if it does, they’ll never take “personal responsibility” . They’ll blame it on President Obama, as usual.

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, I really did know several of them, first hand. I’ve even seen one guy who was up for 5 straight days, tearing at his own skin becuase he thought bugs were living under his skin. Truly horrible stuff.

  • choicelady : kes – I hope you CAN say that to her someday. When you’re safely away from harm and she can’t hit! I’m just sitting here shaking my head…

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…so many like myself who lost their jobs in the 2008 meltdown took similar options….and they are so, so stuck. Thanks for filling out the details.

  • kesmarn : I know, right? Why not just pay someone to punch you in the face every day? I’ve been tempted to say that to her, c’lady.

  • SallyT : I know, Glenn, but it might just turn around and bite them in the long run and get us closer to Medicare for All. The Repugs don’t think things out, you know.

  • choicelady : kes – are you SERIOUS??????? What la-la land is she living in?

  • choicelady : Murph – she comes from upper middle class background and never EVER had to apply for a job. They just fell into her lap. She cannot bring herself to try a business (she has many skills and talents) because it might fail. She cannot job hunt since she might not be chosen. She is terrified of failure so she got early Social Security and sells crap on EBay and Amazon and, by the way, sells her wall hangings and quilts under the table, no tax payments. But she sees herself as just making ends meet – everyone else is a rip off person. Grrrrrr!

  • kesmarn : KT…you have described the meth addict to a T. It’s really awful.

  • glenn : Sally–Christie says he’s still making up his mind about that; but right now he’s happy to have the federal government do it because they haven’t answered his questions about how much it’s going to cost the state. So, he’s willing to let the federal government pay for it until he sees how much it costs. Mind you, they’ve (the states) had over two years to ask these questions, but they’re just asking them now.

  • kesmarn : Right, c’lady. I know another woman whose husband has been on unemployment for 8 months, and her UNION job is the only thing keeping them afloat. Who did she vote for for Governor? Union buster Kasich.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think the war on really dangerous drugs like meth is a war worth fighting. As much as I am against government intervention in people’s lives, I think meth out to be eradicated. Probably an impossible goal, but one that we should try to achieve. When I lived in SoCal in the 80s, I knew several meth addicts personally. They were zombies, really. emaciated, crazy, sores all over, rotting teeth, and a skin palour that was right out of a zombie movie.

  • choicelady : Sally – yup. If states don’t do it, the feds will, and the fed program HAS a public option they might choose to keep in the High Risk Pool. One step closer to single payer. HAH!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…can you say a bit more about your friend? I don’t understand this snippet: “But I WILL say something. She could work – she just can’t take risks that something might not work out.”

  • SallyT : I heard that if these Rep Governor don’t go for Obamacare and put it back on the Government, well, that is just getting us closer to Universal Healthcare. So, maybe it is good that Christie isn’t taking it.

  • choicelady : kes – the ONLY way to understand the Libertarians and other hypocrites is to keep in mind the saying, “No man is a villain in his own life story.” My closest friend rants against those on “welfare” (disability in this case) while being on Medicaid and food stamps herself. I go SO ANGRY I stopped writing her or seeing her until I could stop being mad. But I WILL say something. She could work – she just can’t take risks that something might not work out. So SHE sees herself as being in need when everyone else on the Right would see her as a grifter.

  • kesmarn : Exactly, Murph and glenn. Their “needs” are real. Everyone else is a leech.

  • glenn : kes–and they just don’t see it. One of the other questions Stewart asked Christie was if he (Christie) would let the private sector take care of Hurricane Sandy. Christie’s answer was that the government does have some functions, and one of them is giving money to the states for disasters. It was priceless, I tell you.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes….here in Mo. that kind of experience is commonplace. Farmers always talk poor, but they also tend to add their anger about “them that takes without giving” Giving farm bills and subsidies, this is a bit of a problem.

  • choicelady : KT – got it now. I do know Rand wants everyting legalized, but since it’s Rand saying it…kinda makes me opposed to it just ’cause of him! Not good policy making on my part!!!

  • kesmarn : glenn, I know a family of Rand Libertarians in KY. One of their homes was destroyed in a flood and they have a handicapped child. Now — their main beef? FEMA didn’t give them enough money for the house and their SS check don’t always arrive on time. So much for “the big bad gummint,” wouldn’t you think? But no,they still spout their venom against the people “living off the government.” Total disconnect.

  • glenn : CL–the “Danish king” stand is absolutely wonderful! Good for the Hungarians!

  • SallyT : No, that’s Raul Paul who is into legalizing all drugs.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I wasn’t advocating the legalization of meth. Quite the contrary. I was saying think about all the resources, time and money that could go to fighting meth, coke and heroin, by legalizing weed.

  • choicelady : Sally and KT – sorry, thought you were into legalization of ALL drugs. I’m not opposed, just not sure yet where we need to go on this.

  • glenn : KT–is that where norquist got the name? You mean he can’t even be original when he trashes the President?

  • choicelady : kes – I know. I’ve seen the photos. Man – beat themselves with the ugly stick. It’s pathetic and disgusting.

  • choicelady : KT – that’s right, I forgot. I can’t remember who on the Planet said he was from IL, too.

  • glenn : Kes–something along the lines that it was “different”. You know, IOIYAR. Sally, the whole interview is on Jon Stewart’s site, but it is cut up into three parts.

  • choicelady : kes – the Hungarians pulled a “Danish king” stand. EVERYONE wore a yellow star of David. It was amazing and brought tears to my eyes. Do you know the story of the King of Denmark showing up the day the Nazis decreed all Jews had to wear the star and HE DID and so did all of his family?????

  • AdLib : BRB

  • kesmarn : C’lady, as you probably know, there are websites that show before/after pic of meth heads. 2-3 years of use seems to add 20-30 years of age to the face.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ha, “poopey head.” Right out of a Lewis Black comedy routine.

  • SallyT : KT wasn’t saying to legalize Meth. He was saying that the law would have more time to devote to those drugs and not pot.

  • kesmarn : And great to hear that about vocal opposition to the far RW in Hungary. People hopefully have no desire to do re-runs on WWII.

  • glenn : CL–That was my point about childish. That was the reason Norquist gave–that President Obama called romney a “poopy head”. You know that anything r/tp’s say doesn’t have to have a basis in fact or reality. I’m just telling you what norquist actually said and the words he actually used.

  • choicelady : kes – I think the ONLY way to stop people from using meth is to show photos of what you will LOOK LIKE if you use it! Yikes!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, you from Ill and I from Ohio. basically the same territory. LOL. But I’ve lived all over the US. Southeast, northeast in New Hampshire ans Boston. Southwest in SanDiego county and the great northwest, in Vancouver.

  • kesmarn : I agree, c’lady. Meth is really a hideous substance. A real life-ruiner. It’s not so much a drug as it is poison.

  • choicelady : kes – the right in Europe is small but disgustingly fascist. It’s not even that bad in the Baggerland here. Very scary. But Hungarians of all kinds turned out against the party this weekend, and, to quote Murph, the RW was gobsmacked at the opposition in size and firmness of opinion!

  • SallyT : Glenn, that was good. Is the whole interview on the net? It was cut up on the show.

  • choicelady : KT – I think I’d be more careful than blanket legalization. Meth is too easy to make and is disastrous. It appears to be THE most addictive substance known. But overall REGULATED legalization makes sense indeed.

  • kesmarn : glenn, too funny. Did Christie have a reply?

  • glenn : KT–think their hyprocisy only takes effect when it suits them. Speaking of hyprocisy did anyone see Jon Stewart’s interview with Chris Christie when he asked Christie if the r/tp’s only wanted federal money when it affected them. Then it was the “most important thing, and had to be done immediately.” When it affects other people, it’s entitlements. It was priceless.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, think of how much money, time and resources could be given over to fighting methh, heroin and coke. Not to mention all the freed up jails cells and all the already overcrowed court dockets. Legalizing is a win win situation.

  • choicelady : kes – LOL!!! Perfect insight into Norquist AND the GOP!!!

  • kesmarn : Sad to hear that about Hungary, c’lady. What is up with this marginal resurgence of the extreme right in Europe?

  • choicelady : glenn – at what point did Obama, the only adult in the room, actually call Romney a “poopy head”? The other way AROUND, sure. How utterly insane.

  • SallyT : Of course Oregon has many more mountains in the state, like the Three Sisters and such but Mt Hood is the big one.

  • choicelady : Sally – SCOTUS will hear Prop. 8 yes and also DOMA, the federal ban on marriage equality. I think the issue for me goes beyond these cases to the fundamental issue of whether there are RIGHTS that cannot be either legislated or voted upon or whether we all are at risk in having mere privileges that are subject to whim. Hungary has a political party – small but virulent – now calling for registering all Jews as threats to national security. If we don’t have firm rulings on RIGHTS, then EVERYONE is subject to revisions in their access to justice. Everyone.

  • SallyT : KT, I grew up in Missouri and all we had was hills! I moved to SLC, UT and it is surrounded by mountains. Oregon has one great big mountain that you can see from almost every point in Portland.

  • kesmarn : Norquist is so bizarre. How did he ever get so much influence with the Repubs. Wait. I just answered my own question.

  • glenn : kes–I agree with CL–great reply. They are rather childish and sulky lately. Don’t you love it? Still can’t get over norquist saying that romney lost because President Obama called him a “poopy-head.” And…that he said it on national t.v. Talk about childish!

  • KillgoreTrout : glenn that is a rather funny thought. Will their inherent hypocrisy take over?

  • choicelady : KT – I also am a Midwesterner (didn’t we discover we both are from Illinois?) and agree entirely about Mt. Hood. Breathtaking!

  • SallyT : Is the case on Prop 8 that didn’t pass in Calif? About one Judge saying it was ok to marry and the vote saying no?

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, Mt. Hood is truly an amazing sight. I grew up in the midwest and was not used to seeing such natural grandeur. When I got to Portland, before going to Vancouver, I couldn’t get enough of gazing at Mt. Hood. Truly majestic.

  • choicelady : Sally – worrisome. Very worrisome. But knowledgable people say Kennedy won’t want to be on the wrong side of history. I hope that’s true.

  • kesmarn : Thanks, c’lady. These people make me weary.

  • SallyT : How about the SCOTUS going to hear a case on Same Sex Marriage?

  • choicelady : kes! GREAT retort!

  • choicelady : KT – at least as far as our US Attorney goes, he is concerned with pot ONLY when it involves actual engagement with criminals in gangs, violence, etc. He’s got very good judgment. His real war on drugs IS against other things esp. meth. He is not an idiot. At a public meeting someone asked him if he’d ever used pot. He smiled and said, “I went to college in the US.” Everyone laughed. He is a very great guy and NOT raiding pot dispensaries, growers, etc. just because they’re there. His main focus? Preventing hate crimes and tracking down fraudulent lenders in the mortgage debacle. I really think he’s something fine.

  • glenn : KT–agreed. I think it will come down to that in the end, anyway. Do you think r/tp’s will fight for “states rights” if it comes to the feds intervening? (That was a joke).

  • kesmarn : glenn, I heard something similar from a diehard Repub today. A childish, sulky comment like: ‘Well, let’s just give Obama EVERYTHING he wants, and then, when it all blows up, people will know who to blame.’ I answered: “Fine. As long as they give credit when it works.”

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, I think just maybe you are right. At this point i time, with all the research and personal experiences, pot should no longer be considered a dangerous drug. What’s the worst that can happen…. a Chitos overdose?

  • SallyT : I can see MT Hood from my balcony in the winter when my neighbor’s tree has no leaves.

  • KillgoreTrout : Glenn the feds should just leave it up to the individual sates and leave pot and pot users the fuck alone. The DEA will still have plenty of poisons to wage war on.

  • glenn : kes–saw a transcript of an conversation between ann coulter and hannity. Coulter said republicans/tpar tiers should just go ahead and raise taxes on the 1% because the media was just going to blame the republicans anyway. Stupid hannity said that was “capitulating” to Obama. Fox news hosts don’t understand democracy; when the majority of people agree with President Obama, it’s democracy, not capitalution.

  • choicelady : KT – I love VAncouver, and being able to see Mt. St. Helens would be AMAZING!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I lived in Vancouver Wash for about a year. Very beautiful country. I could see Mt. St. Helens from my bedroom window. (or what was left of it)

  • AdLib : There is a lot of posturing by both sides, including Obama. I think he really wants a deal and doesn’t want to go past the end of the year without a deal. However, I think he is willing to bet into his hand and put the weight of no deal on the Repubs if they won’t agree to a tax cut for only the 99%. Personally, I think the Repubs will agree because after the 1st, the pressure on them from all sides will be enormous and they will be in a panic to agree to anything, losing out on a chance to get some of what they want.

  • SallyT : I heard that it really wouldn’t hurt if they did raise the age because Obamacare would cover and also those working or retiring from a company with HC could still be covered.

  • SallyT : KT, it will pass in Oregon next time. All the money was used in Washington this time but next time the money will be spent here to pass it.

  • choicelady : Sally – NO I do not think the Dems will raise the age. I do think they MIGHT means test SS and Medicare, and as one who’d probably pay more, I think that’s OK.

  • kesmarn : Saw a transcript of an interview with Tim Geitner in which he said that Obama is “absolutely” ready to go over the cliff. It’s increase taxes on the 1% or else. No bluffing.

  • glenn : KT–also saw on the news this week that the WH is trying to figure out how to deal with the new state laws regarding pot. Sure is a tricky subject. I think it should be legal everywhere.

  • choicelady : KT – and if you can live within the sight of the Columbia River, you will have found Nirvana. GORGEOUS.

  • SallyT : Think the Democrats will go for raising the Medicare edibility age to 67?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I was thinking about moving to oregon, to be closer to my daughter, but Now I’m thinking Washignton state. It’s right on the border of Oregon. Right across the mighty Columbia river.

  • choicelady : KT – rant accepted and agreed to. I just get totally pissed at people who put profit ahead of anything, and they’ve made a ripe mess of it for the honest medical dispensaries and growers. I have a number of friends who NEED it, and now it’s no nearly so available. Damn.

  • glenn : AdLib–I vote for fiery death, too. Did you all notice that President Obama’s ratings went up when he finally stood up to the republicans/tpar tiers?

  • SallyT : I’m with you, Kes. But, I think they will come up with something before year end.

  • choicelady : AdLib – my husband says one of the less awful GOP congressmen has been going around talking to others to MAKE the agreement, pass the middle class cuts and let the other rates rise. He think said Congressman (can’t recall the name) is the front for Boehner and that YES, there will be a deal. AND it won’t involve cuts to ‘entitlements’ as they keep calling our health care and pension payments as if we did not EARN them!

  • kesmarn : I vote for fiery death, AdLib!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, it truly disgusts me. All the lies and paranoia and deceptive “research,” that has been a part of this war on pot, have been proven by life experiences of millions, to not be true at all. Pot is one of the most benign substances on the planet. It just pisses me off, after all the years have passed since it’sprohibition , that we still have these corrupt, paranoid and dishonest groups of people trying to perpetuate the old lies. In the meantime, ordinarily law abiding, decent people have their live ruined by an unjust law. (rant over)

  • kesmarn : Hope the decent weather holds for her, glenn. I’m on the other (west) side of the state.

  • AdLib : So, what do folks think this week, will there be a deal on the tax rates before the end of the year or do we go off the fiscal cliff and plunge to a fiery immediate death from which there is no escape?

  • glenn : kes–she’ll be in the Cleveland area.

  • kesmarn : Did FOX take any note of the fact that Mitch McConnell felt compelled to filibuster himself?

  • SallyT : They did, Glenn. I know, nothing new. But, why pick on a 83 year old man! AHoles!

  • glenn : Sally–Say it ain’t true. Hannity and Fox made something up?

  • kesmarn : It’s been mild so far this December, glenn. What part of the state will your daughter be in?

  • SallyT : Glenn, watch the Asner Video. It is good. Hannity says it will be taught in the schools. I think it should. BUT it does not say anything about piss in it. Hannity and Fox made that up. «link»

  • kesmarn : Low 40s, c’lady, so I’ll take the drizzle. At least we don’t have to shovel it!

  • glenn : kes–sorry to hear about the weather in Ohio. My daughter’s going there for business on Monday. What’s the temp.?

  • choicelady : Sally – Oh, I could see Ed saying it TO Hannity!!!

  • choicelady : kes – how are your temps with this drizzle?

  • glenn : Sally–If Asner said that, I agree with him 100%. That’s what I always tell my republican friend when she starts talking about the “job creators.”

  • AdLib : It looks so much more inevitable now that marijuana will be legalized nationally within the next 20 years (it should be less than 10 but add in the RW fighting it).

  • choicelady : KT – I know. I think the legalization is the ONLY thing that makes sense, and yet, as you noted, there media will act as if white slavers are out there selling hash and your first born.

  • SallyT : CL, he didn’t say that but he did say it to Hannity!

  • kesmarn : Doing well, glenn. Drizzly night here in Ohio.

  • choicelady : Sally – Ed is not crass. He’s blunt, but he’s never crass and I don’t believe he said that.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, it’s not the same as the new laws that make it legal to possess and consume pot for recreational use. No state license is needed.

  • SallyT : «link»

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KES…good evening to you.

  • AdLib : Hey Kes! Nice to see you!

  • SallyT : Here is a link with both videos. Watch the Asner one. It is really good and tells the truth.

  • glenn : Kesmarn–‘eveni ng. Doing well, how are you?

  • SallyT : Hannity claims that Asner says in the piece that tickle down is rich pissing on poor people. BUt that is not it at all.

  • choicelady : Sally – Ed did a piece for the teachers and now he’s a bad person???? Well he will be DAMNED proud of that!

  • KillgoreTrout : It was a robbery. They could have been after money, gold, jewlry….etc. The headline of the article mad it sound as if the place invaded was a state grow center. The author actually used the words, “grow center.” Prior to this one incident, the place has always been referred to as a “grow house.” It’s just more dishonest manipulation of the English language to distort the truth.

  • glenn : Sally–didn’t see hannity’s piece. What did he have to say about Ed Asner?

  • choicelady : hey kes! Great to see you!

  • SallyT : AdLib, Asner did a educational piece for the Teacher’s Union.

  • choicelady : Sally – Hannity hit on Ed? I know Ed, what happened?

  • AdLib : Sally, no, what was Asner being attacked for. Can I guess? Being a liberal communist socialist?

  • choicelady : KT – the gangs that have come to CA to buy and transport are largely Jamaican and Colombian. We’ve had some horrific deaths in Oakland-Richmond in these drug wars AND it has included a couple of young friends who got caught up in it all. They are OK, but it was damned scary.

  • kesmarn : Good Friday evening, fellow Planeteers. Just popping in for a short visit after a Mercy dinner/meeting/C hristmas thing. How is every one?

  • SallyT : Did you guys see that piece Hannity had about Ed Asner?

  • glenn : KT–The journalism “profession” is taking a lot of hits lately. Justifiably so, in my opinion. Lately journalists, reporters, whatever you want to call them, go for the sensational headline, in order to “sell” the stories. I’m sure many of you remember when news organizations were “loss leaders” in order to keep reporters honest. Nowadays, it seems we go for the Hearst-style journalism.

  • choicelady : KT – it is legal for medical dispensaries. It has been the source of raids (at least in our US federal district) ONLY when abuses and NON medical useage and sales have occurred. And they jacked the price to the medical users, too – despicable!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, what drug gangs might that be?

  • choicelady : KT – despite my own experiences here, I TOTALLY agree with you about stupid coverage and false equivalencies. Reporters like the GOP get dumber by the hour.

  • SallyT : KT, that is frustrating! How does that have anything to do with the new law? One plant wouldn’t be cause.

  • KillgoreTrout : Cl, pot is not legal in CA. Not for recreational use like the new laws in Colorado and Washingto state.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, it was in Washington. It was nothing more than a home invasion and has no ties what-so-ever to the new pot laws. This sort of “journalism,” is completely dishonest. It makes me sick.

  • choicelady : KT – did not hear that. My faith organization stood for the legalization here in CA much to the shock of lots of people (it wasn’t about “toke up, Dude” but about removing criminal environments. AND we ARE the people who brought you Prohibition. We have seriously learned from our mistakes.) That said – I am well and truly pissed here at the numbers of medical marijuana growers who, under cover of that license, have been bulk growing and feeding drug gangs back east. It scares the living daylights out of me that they have brought those people here – we’ve had deaths in grower wars, and I really want it hyper regulated to prevent this in CO and WA etc. One grower I met was – I am NOT making this up – a pot growing Dominionist Sovereign Citizen who – at the top of his voice threatened to kill me because I don’t agree with jury nullification. So I’m not a great fan of some of these people!

  • KillgoreTrout : What actually happened wa a home invasion of a house where they burgalers got shot and killed, and the owner of the home happened to have plants growing in his attic. The slimeball aurtor of the piece made it sond like the invasion and sub sequent shooting were somehow related to the new pot laws in washington. What a sleazy piece of “journalism”

  • glenn : CL–Yes, and no as for the non-union person getting attacked, because I’m talking about the teaching profession. While I don’t think all teachers are right all the time; I also hate it when students make up things, and would hate to see an innocent teacher get railroaded.

  • SallyT : KT, was the killing in Washington or Colorado?

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m a bit pissed off about an article by ABC that says, on the first day of legal pot, it was marred by a killing of two people at a “pot growing center.”

  • choicelady : LOL Murph – GREAT word that!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…I know i was (to harken back to my British roots) GOBSMACKED!

  • choicelady : Murph – gasp! No! The big money people LIED???? Say it ain’t so!!! I’m totally disillusioned.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…beyond the issues you mention RTW is used by companies to push workers to disallow unions, the cases in SC are illustrative of this. Two new plants were promised IF the union was removed…all under the cover of RTW. The plants were opened but SURPRISE the Big Money folks have not lived up to their promises.

  • choicelady : Sally – EXACTLY. Now current union folks KNOW why – they’ve been living with the attack. But it has to be stopped NOW before younger people have to decide. The short-term thinking by workers who want two more beers every week rather than pay dues CAN be disastrous. But I think they can win this with the ‘no free riders’ issue.

  • choicelady : Thanks Murph – good resource!

  • SallyT : CL, that is why the Unions are up in arms about this. Why would anyone pay their Union Dues if they can get everything that the Union bargains for and they don’t have to pay the dues.

  • choicelady : glenn and Murph – there doesn’t HAVE to be a relationship with RTW and low wage bad conditions work. Part of it is that because the free riders GET the free ride, union membership does fall. Stop that and it changes the entire game. glenn – I will be waiting, gloating, the first time a NON union person gets attacked – and there’s no union there to help. That will be schadenfreud for sure.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : ALL… bad link… try this one for the RTW paper «link»

  • glenn : CL–oops sorry. I have to keep scrolling up and down my screen and the user names are in blue, so I can tell them apart.

  • glenn : If it weren’t for the union, a colleague of mine would have been fired because a student lied about her. The student accused her of physical abuse. After investigation, turns out the student was not only a liar, but a thief, and all charges were dropped. Without union intervention, the teacher would not have been able to afford a lawyer and the investigator to fight the case and to keep it out of the papers.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think the problem NOW with RTW is that when unions bargain, everyone including NON members get the goodies – wages, hours, standards. NOT giving free riders any of that would make it truly “right to work”. But it will have to be litigated and fought over – and it’s worth it. RTW cannot any longer mean free ride.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : ALL…a VERY good research paper produced at the University of Maine on Right to Work…. umaine.edu/ble/f iles/2011/01/Rig httoWork_Laws.pd f Pretty clear that states with it fall behind in every major category.

  • choicelady : glenn – sorry to say I’m having trouble following you since you and I apparently are fraternal/identi cal twins! LOL!! Our identical avatars make conversation difficult – can’t see where you end and I begin!

  • AdLib : CL – I think you’re right, RTW doesn’t allow for taking the benefits from unions and re-distributing them to non-union members. Meanwhile, a Dem takeover in MI could allow for the reversal of RTW. They should run on that in 2014.

  • SallyT : It has been found that in states with RTW the wages have gone down.

  • KillgoreTrout : Lately, I’ve heard a lot of guff about unions not paying their fair share of taxes. How is that supposed to work? Unions get taxed?

  • choicelady : Sally – the first idiots who leave the union and find they get nada, zip, zilch when they get harassed, fired, overworked? Well they’ll live and they will learn.

  • glenn : CL-yes, it’s a male. And I am following local politics a lot closer than I used to. Even though this particular moron will not be running; I want to be sure I’m aware of issues when 2014 comes around. It’s an uphill battle here in GA, but I’m going to continue to cast my vote.

  • choicelady : I don’t think RTW necessarily worsens conditions and wages. What it does is weaken union political coffers – precisely the point. They tried to overturn unions’ right to use members’ money for politics here in CA, but it failed. This is much easier in a GOP dominated state – but it will probably backfire BIG time on them.

  • choicelady : Sally – I agree with you on ignorance of RTW. So a big move has to be made about “free riders” and “grifters” trying to use other people’s work to get benefits for themselves. Turn the arguments back ON these idiots.

  • SallyT : Do people realize that a Right to Work state means they can fire you for any reason, well, they don’t need a reason.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, really, the GOP has not changed their ideology much at all since they let the religious fanatics attract votes. Barry Goldwater warned the GOP that letting the religious segment into the party platform would be dangerous and ultimately destructive.

  • glenn : Sally–What an oxymoron “right to work” is. Right to lower wages and worse working conditions is more like it.

  • choicelady : glenn – I’d worry said Bagger was ‘boring from within’. Keep a sharp eye on him. Her? Probably him, right?

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think you could make a court case for unions not having to pass benefits to the “undeserving” turncoats – uh – non members. The initiative process may be out – it’s NOT the last stand, and you wouldn’t be overturning it. You’d be refining it via Citizens United. Might as well use it for something good.

  • SallyT : I really don’t think people know what “Right To Work” means.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT I agree the GOP is lost, in the wilderness, conflicted and in denial….

  • glenn : CL-Yup, do you believe it? A republican/tpart ier going into public broadcasting. You know, that government-teat- sucking organization that you-know-who wanted to defund. I’m not sure public broadcasting will ever be the same.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL….Jennifer Granholm is really pushing the RTW law as another GOP seizure of power in her state and I wonder if she will do more than shine a spotlight on it. Your insight into an initiative is a good one. This is really an attack on democracy. I would love it if Walker, Snyder and Scott were to lose in the next round. They have to go.

  • choicelady : KT – I don’t even think they have old ideas unless you’re looking at the GOP c. 1947-60 and its devotion to Birchers, to McCarthy, HUAC, et al. That was as wacky and brainless a period – and it spawned Nixon and Reagan. MAYBE this time it will just curl up and die.

  • SallyT : You are very welcome, Cl and Murph! I do like to hear when someone has a favorite. Lately those commenting have had a different one among all of them.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, I love political cartoons. I first got hooked on Dunesbury!

  • AdLib : CL – That’s a good approach. I understand that since the Repubs sneakily added a budget item to the bill, it can’t be overturned by initiative. So, limiting benefits of unions to members might be a good short term leverage to get this law cancelled by a new one reversing RTW.

  • choicelady : glenn – you now have someone running public broadcasting who gets signals in his fillings about the UN conspiracy? Poor GA. Poor you.

  • choicelady : Sally – we DO laugh, and it’s a marvelous contribution to the Planet and a gift to us. Thank you!

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, I’d say they are bit premature. They still don’t understand why they got their butts whipped so badly. It’s easy to see why. They cling to old ideas in a changing world. They just can’t seem to grasp that concept.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally….I now have a standing link to your Sunday posts for everyone on my political mailing list. I go to each week, copy it and drop it into my signature line.

  • choicelady : Murph – I agree about DeMint. Good-bye and good riddance.

  • choicelady : Murph – I am, of course, furious about the Michigan RTW law. But I think the unions can press an initiative that NOTHING they bargain for can be used by NON members. Not a member? You’re on your own – go bargain with your supervisor and see where you get. As “fictitious persons” unions now have to have freedom of conscience, too!!!

  • glenn : Related to the DeMint move, one of the senators here in GA has resigned his office to take a position in public broadcasting. This, after attending a meeting about the newest conspiracy theories called Agenda 21.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL I know the number because it has been widely reported by I really detest him. “Waterloo” DeMint was correct in the same way that Napoleon was when he went into that battle. He has been driven from the field.

  • AdLib : Now The American Heritage Foundation will be seen as officially Deminted.

  • SallyT : Murph, I go all over the place and collect them all week. I love doing it because I love you guys getting a laugh or two at the end of the week.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- It is clearer and clearer to me that the Party of NOPE had no backup plan….they really believed…so now the state based parties are going after voting laws again, trying to kill off the unions and changing the electoral college division of votes.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, McCain and McConnel definitely need nannies. I’m surprised they aren’t drooling on their own shirts by now. (maybe they are)

  • choicelady : Murph – now that’s the kind of record keeping I admire, that you know DeMint’s sterling 38-0 record, and that it’s 38 tries, NO success! I figured he was the money man. He’s certainly NOT the brains. Or, God help ‘em – maybe he is.

  • SallyT : That Heritage has lost their marbles if they are going to pay over a million for DeMint. That alone says they have gone to pot. Well, not pot….

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally….let me say to you HOW MUCH I LOVE YOUR FUNNIES. I have been cutting and pasting and sending them on. How ever do you manage to do it!

  • choicelady : KT – I think McC knew what he was doing but honestly thought he could flim flam it and sell it even in Peoria. They all believe they are wise statesmen when they really shouldn’t be let out without a nanny.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice DeMint hooks them into some of the wealthiest and most conservative and he will take their orders gladly. He certainly had one of the least distinguished careers in the Senate in Modern History. 38 Bills and not one passed.

  • KillgoreTrout : I just laughed out loud, for quite a while when I heard about old lady McConnel objecting to his own proposition. He wasn’t even aware of what he had done.

  • choicelady : Ooohhhh Sally – can hardly wait! Your finds are pure gold!

  • SallyT : CL, I got a cute cartoon on DeMint for Sunday.

  • choicelady : Murph – oh I know it’s fallen on low standards lately, but honestly – DeMint??? That’s bottom feeding. They’re doomed as credible sources.

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, it was truly a moment of beauty. The GOPers insane tendency to refute anything the dems want just made them look like the idiots they really are. The GOPers are permanently stuck in the “no,” mode, regardless of any real thought.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- Heritage created Romney Care….in the days when it really was a Think Tank. Those days are gone. So many of its so called “fellows” and “scholars” today are nothing more than dressed up hacks and lobbyists. DeMint will fit right in.

  • choicelady : KT – that’s what engendered Claire’s amazing ‘whiplash’ remark that I think may be the funniest and most apt reaction ever! Glenn – it WAS absolutely wonderful to see him do that!

  • glenn : Hi Sally!

  • AdLib : Killgore – That was the most hilarious and absurd thing in this whole election/post-el ection period. McConnell is outraged at Reid trying to bring sanity back to the filibuster by reining it in…then he uses it to filibuster himself? Pwned and fail.

  • glenn : KT–I loved mcconnell filibustering himself. Did you see Lawrence O’Donnell’s piece on it? I think he said something about it being the most idiotic thing he’d ever seen in the Senate.

  • SallyT : Hi Glenn!

  • choicelady : Murph – too many of the GOP are scum. I cannot believe that the Heritage Fdn which I intensely dislike but that has a fairly decent rep has hired Bagger Extraordinaire DeMint as their new head. That is their kiss of death. Yikes.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- I watched the entire drama play out on the floor of the Senate on C Span…Fascinati ng to see how fast the Dem caucus moved and how stunned Yertle the Turtle was.

  • glenn : Hi CL, AdLib

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Glenn, good to see ya! So to speak!

  • SallyT : CL, sorry you got a little flooded. Yes, it is raining still here in Portland. Temp isn’t too bad, tho.

  • KillgoreTrout : How about Mitch mcConnell, “filibustering, ” himself. Was that funny or what?

  • choicelady : Hi glenn – glad to see you!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi Glenn….good to “see/hear” you. Thanks for the wishes for good health.

  • AdLib : Hey glenn! Welcome! Sorry about the bumpy Vox last week, all should be well this week.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : ALL….This is what had the folks at my meeting with the Congressman angry” “Despite publicly disavowing candidate Todd Akin after his “legitimate rape” remark, the National Republican Senatorial Committee quietly sent $760,000 to Missouri in a last-ditch attempt to aid Akin’s unsuccessful bid to unseat Democratic Sen. Claire McCaskill.” In addition at least six members of Congress made campaign to campaign direct contributions.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, with that lot, money trumps all else.

  • glenn : Good evening, all. Murph, sorry to hear about your food poisoning. On another note, your meeting sounds interesting.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think the GOP is still reeling from the ass whooping they took last month. I think they really believed they were going to win. They are just so out of touch with the changing times in America, they don’t know whether to shit or go blind!

  • choicelady : Murph- then we both missed the same two weeks. But I at least was healthy!

  • AdLib : KT – But the news came out today that while the GOP was publicly distancing themselves from Akin, they were secretly funneling money to him. The GOP still is infected with these horrible types who only care about winning no matter how disgusting the people are they are connected to.

  • choicelady : Hi Sally – missed you, too! How’s Portland after the rains? I was gone – back east for a week – and came home to a flooded office (not serious tho the bathroom next door is out of commission) and leaks in my roof. Poor husband had to deal with it – and now we have a gigunda dehumidifier in the hall and closet. Sounds like a B-737 waiting for take off. We CAN turn it down but not off at night, but the cats are totally traumatized.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL….just too damn stubborn. I told my family I would stay off of Vox for a week or two. I did. Now I am back. Taaaa Daaaa !!!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I was certainly glad to see Aiken get the drubbing he deserved.

  • choicelady : Oooh Murph – did not catch that reference and sorry as hell YOU got the real McCoy! NOT fun I know! I’m in awe that you’re OK enough to write tonight!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT Agreed re. Akin but he got a LOT of secret, under the table money from several PAC’s controlled by members of Congress. We wanted our man on the record.

  • AdLib : The question Murph is whether this is a short term sanity break or a road back to reason.

  • choicelady : KT – when I learned that Akin supported those who support the murder of abortion providers, my blood ran cold. I knew two of those who have already died. NO one who advocated murder against people performing legal abortions should be elected even dog catcher!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- hey there….read back a see my saga of food poisoning, it tells the awful tale. “Whiplash” McCaskill. Love it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Glad you could join us CL!

  • SallyT : Hello, CL! Missed ya!

  • AdLib : Hey Choicelady! Great to see you!

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, Akin is rotten fruit. Even the most conservative in the GOP know he is beyond the pale. Trying to justify rape and distort medical science is something the GOPers now realize is something they should not be assossiated with.

  • choicelady : Hi Sally, KT, and of course AdLib, too!

  • choicelady : Hi all – sorry to have missed everyone these past two weeks! Murph – what’s this about antibiotics and ill health? You’re supposed to be wallowing in the after effects of a great job, well done. You’ve elected Claire “Whiplash” McCaskill! Are you OK?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….everythin g I see here in the post-shock period after the election indicates that the GOP is really at a loss and struggling to move to the center- Boehner is the poster boy for all of this. Purging the worst of the TP and yet acting as if TP priorities are still at the forefront.

  • AdLib : Well, looks like we’ve got tax increases for the wealthy on the way. Can you believe how quickly the Repubs are folding after the election results?Love it!

  • SallyT : Hello there all you guys!

  • KillgoreTrout : Good evening, Misstress of the Great Northwest!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello Sally….

  • AdLib : Hey Sally!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…I have a couple of other conditions where those antibiotics might be really necessary at some point and the doc says he wants all the options he has. A night of bathroom rooms is uncomfortable but bearable. He said if the system has not cleared by the end of the month he will act.

  • AdLib : Murph – It could just be post-election sobriety then Repubs could get drunk on denial again in 2014…but maybe, this could mean some real change.

  • SallyT : I just got here, KT!

  • KillgoreTrout : Evening Murph! I hope all is well.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT….my last post to AdLib would be good reading for you as well.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi KT

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….Well, here is something political. I was part of a meeting with our GOP Congressman a week ago. 25 of us invited by the Congressman’s staff as a cross section of his district. Best meeting of its kind I have attended. He really came to listen. There were three Tea Party types there and they were listened to but given no special place. A LOT of conversation about agri businesses, the harm being done by Monsanto, and the unpassed farm bill. The Congressman told us at the end that he and other “centrists” were committed to making the next Congress productive and forward looking. Several of us stayed after to speak about the “cliff, curb, slope, incline” and where he stood. We also asked if he had support Akin IN ANY WAY. He swore he had not.

  • KillgoreTrout : Is Sally in da widget?

  • KillgoreTrout : What’s up Ad?

  • AdLib : Evening Killgore!

  • AdLib : Murph – I appreciate his point but when it’s a severe thing like this, I’ll take the antibiotics to knock it out but I will try to hold off from using them in minor situations.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well, good evening chaps and chapesses!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib. First bout on Wednesday before Thanksgiving. Repeat about a week later, and then another a week after that and then last night. My doc says that the bacteria involved is very hardy and resistant. He can give me a antibiotic pack but prefers to let the body do its own antibody fighting since the more you use the artificial the less effective they become. Basically he is saying my system will eventually flush it all through but what a price to pay.

  • AdLib : Well, nice to have you back! I think a number of people are taking a well deserved break after this two year election period!

  • AdLib : Food poisoning? That’s pretty awful. Are you on the mend now?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hey AdLib…..well.. ..catching on farm work delayed for some odd reason in October and early November….and a serious problem with food poisoning (bad shrimp). Fun huh? And then there is Christmas- lights, trees, presents. If you recall I belong to a very active cooperative and that makes all of this interesting and a bit complex. I have been reading here at the Planet but have taken a bit of a break from most of my blogging….So.. ..back at it.

  • AdLib : Happy Friday!

  • AdLib : Hey Murph! What up?

  • AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” or “Republican’t ” when you arrive!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello…anyone here?

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!

  • AdLib : Night Bito! Rest up and feel better!

  • bito : Good night all, rest well “and give my peanuts to brother Jake.”

  • AdLib : It ain’t the truth, indeed!

  • SallyT : Ain’t that the truth!

  • SallyT : Take care of the cold, Bito, and I will see on here later for sure.

  • AdLib : BTW – Seinfeld episode tonight was on with the Mitt Romney campaign theme: “It’s not a lie, if you believe it.”

  • AdLib : Yep, after a bumpy night, it is time to wrap up Vox for the night. Hope all is well for next week! Have a great weekend and Bito, feel better pal! Night Sally!

  • SallyT : AdLib, can I ask you if Sherlock is okay?

  • SallyT : Well, it is about time for AdLib and I to close up anyway Bito.

  • bito : I will be lurking, but I have to do some meds about now.

  • SallyT : Of course he is the hero on FOX now.

  • SallyT : Yes he should have! Bush could have pardon him but he should have been convicted.

  • bito : North was/is the worst of the worst. He should have been convicted of treason

  • SallyT : The 2500 in Iraq and Afghanistan?

  • AdLib : Sally – It’s a double standard, Repubs are expected to be crooked, Dems are expected to be ethically perfect. Who the hell made that the rule?

  • bito : What was GW’s excuse? He had a bunch of people fall on their sword for him.

  • SallyT : And that Oliver North…he makes me sick! I have never liked him!

  • SallyT : No kidding! Its like they just have to try to prove that the Democrats are crooks because they know they have so many of their own. They want to change focus.

  • AdLib : Sally – Clinton got impeached for lying about an affair, Reagan became a deity after allowing the treason of Iran-Contra to take place. Something is really wrong about the state of justice when it comes to Republicans.

  • SallyT : So, what was Bushie’s excuse?

  • SallyT : Isn’t it something, AdLib, all that that happen back then and no one went after him but they just can’t stop going after Obama for nothing.

  • bito : Iran- Contra was one that really PO’d me, they really swept that one out the door. The beloved St Ronnie!

  • AdLib : What was scariest about Reagan’s Presidency was how obvious it was that he had Alzheimer’s at the end of his second term and how he was being “handled” by Nancy and his staff. Really frightening when you think about it.

  • SallyT : Oh, I think so, too, Bito. Rove didn’t do it for nothing. No way!

  • SallyT : By the end of his Presidency, Reagan thought he was still in the movies and it was all a script.

  • bito : That’s complete BS on Rove,

  • AdLib : Yep, many of the same crooks. Watergate was horrible but Iran-Contra was treason and I think, even worse than Watergate.

  • SallyT : Yes, but Reagan couldn’t remember any of them.

  • bito : It was close AdLib, they did have a lot of scandals

  • SallyT : Rove didn’t get any of that 300 million?

  • SallyT : AdLib, I think some of the same ones, too.

  • SallyT : Do you really believe ole Rove when he tells everyone he was just a volunteer and didn’t get paid?

  • AdLib : Wasn’t the Reagan WH just as deep in crooks?

  • SallyT : Now we just have Rove.

  • bito : :lol: :lol: :lol:

  • SallyT : It gave us a lot of crooks, too, Bito.

  • AdLib : Sally, I think that as more Latinos, Blacks, Asians, etc. vote, the percentage of the pure white GOP constituency will be outweighed percentage wise…and as they die off, they will lose their percentage even more.

  • bito : Watergate sure did give us a lot of phrases, will this one?

  • AdLib : Bito – I agree, 47% will always mean class warfare from the 1% and will go on.

  • SallyT : You think people are getting smarter?

  • AdLib : Sally, the reality of the electorate is that over 40% of them are either convicted to their political beliefs as a matter of faith, ignorance or prejudice. That percentage will decline over time but slowly.

  • SallyT : I think you are correct on that one, Bito. It sure stuck to Romney.

  • bito : That’s probably why 47% will be around for decades, it means so much and it sunk an election

  • SallyT : Oh, I can imagine, AdLib.

  • SallyT : Except for California!

  • AdLib : Sally, the server issue is one that only trial and error could fix…the worst and most unreliable method when it comes to computers.

  • SallyT : I am amazed at how many still voted for them in the state elections.

  • AdLib : And the results of the election actually proved the lie of the 47%. The 47% represents the percentage of self-destructive , poorly informed voters who supported Romney instead of their own interests.

  • SallyT : Once you told me, Bito, I remember the Big Enchilada now.

  • SallyT : Wow, poor AdLib you have had a night with that.

  • bito : Saally I doubt I would have gotten them, I am just reading an article on Watergate and the phrases that were born.

  • SallyT : I think 47% probably would be it, too.

  • AdLib : Sorry, I was messing around with the server!

  • bito : Isn’t that weird Sally, that those phrases were firs used and some are still used now. Wonder what will stick from this election? 47%

  • SallyT : Nixon not Reagan.

  • SallyT : I was a decade off!

  • SallyT : Oh, hell I need to be in the 70’s!

  • bito : last hint “expletive deleted” WATERGATE!

  • SallyT : At this point in time…?? Sounds like Walter Cronkrit.

  • SallyT : Oh, geez, 1984?

  • bito : What’s so strange is that they are so common now.

  • bito : close, only one number wrong, how about this from the same era: ” at this point in time…”

  • SallyT : That is a pure guess because I really have no idea, Bito.

  • SallyT : 1982

  • bito : so when was the “big enchilada” first used in politics, Sally?

  • SallyT : Mine, too, Bito. Now I show only you and me listed above.

  • bito : everyone disappeared on my screen for about 3 minutes

  • SallyT : Everybody gone?

  • SallyT : Wow, I lost you guys for awhile.

  • bito : You’re right about that KT. Has there ever been a campaign that didn’t mention the previous leader of the party? Maybe Hoover? LOL

  • bito : Let me test your knowledge and it should show your age/era When was this first used: The big enchilada … or this one ” at variance with” It’s strange but those two phrases were used for the first time in politics.

  • KillgoreTrout : It is soooo telling that not a peep was heard from republicans about Bush/Cheney in the recent campaign. They acted like Bush/Cheney never existed.

  • bito : All the Dems have to do is put up tapes of Condi Rice, McGrump and Crackers on a Sunday morning talker. Case closed.

  • AdLib : KT – You have quite an encyclopedic knowledge of music, I always enjoy your picks! Would you be interested in taking over the Music Thread for a while, picking the themes and all?

  • KillgoreTrout : I love how Obama is defending Rice and pointing out the pettiness of MaGoo and his cohorts.

  • SallyT : The Repugs just want to find something that takes away from their history with Watergate, Irancontra, and Bush. Billy wasn’t enough. He didn’t hurt anyone but himself and that even gave him a smile….

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, i love participating in the music threads. Some people in my life have told me I should be a DJ.

  • AdLib : All of these haters cynically lying and blaming Rice for the briefing she didn’t write, will be shamed in the end. And Obama shouldn’t and won’t back down on this.

  • SallyT : Thanks guys! I love doing it and I love to make people smile and laugh.

  • AdLib : KT – Between the Weekend Music Thread and Sunday Funnies, it’s a very entertaining weekend here and a great antidote to the intensity of weekly events.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I agree. Lesly and Ayote too. They are such fucking mean spirited hypocrites.

  • SallyT : Magoo is looking so bad! He is sad to watch as he completely destroys himself and any good he ever did.

  • AdLib : Sally – Yes, Sunday Funnies is getting a lot of views! Most people won’t leave comments to comics but that doesn’t mean they’re not reading or enjoying them! Keep up the good work!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, love the Sunday Funnies. It’s such a nice balance to the serious stuff we get involved with during the week. And comic strips often deal with the serious subjects while providing a laugh or a chuckle. Kind of like Colbert and Stewart.

  • AdLib : KT – How can it not be a central talking point if Susan Rice is nominated as expected? When McCain attacks her, his vote for Condi Rice should be hammered endlessly.

  • SallyT : I hope Kerry does hold out until there is someone that will beat Brown. But, if I were Kerry, I don’t know if I would want to be following Hilary. You are going to be compared to her and she has been so great.

  • SallyT : I am so happy to hear that, AdLib! I get afraid that no one is looking.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, none what so-ever. That’s my biggest complaint. Not one of those slimeballs attacked Condi Rice, after the deaths of nearly 3,000 people, ON OUR OWN SOIL!

  • AdLib : Sally – Great! I have become addicted to your Sunday Funnies.

  • SallyT : Oh, Adlib, I have a cartoon Sunday that is about that comparsion.

  • AdLib : I know Kerry would love to be SoS, I don’t know that he would want any other cabinet position but with the Repubs scheming to replace him with Scott Brown as Senator, I think he stays put at least for a while…until a strong opponent to Brown is available.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, I agree. I don’t think kerry would really want such an appointment, unless he thought he could do a better job than Susan Rice. He’s probably on to the republican sham they’re trying to get away with. So much has been revealed about the Goper’s true nature in the last decade, that I don’t see a lot of people buying into this anti-Rice bullshit.

  • SallyT : That should have been chain shorter. Damn!

  • SallyT : I know, AdLib, it is all about greed but I still hold out that there will be more Scrooges visited by the 3 Ghosts and change their ways. Find that being good to others makes that change shorter for him in the after life.

  • AdLib : McCranky voted for Condy Rice AFTER she lied and deceived over the Bin Laden warnings…and that led to 2500 American deaths. He has no credibility in indicting this Rice.

  • AdLib : Sally – It’s all about naked greed. Such people just want to take all they can and pay others as little as they can. There is no humanity involved.

  • SallyT : But, of course, I know Kerry would love to be Secretary of State or of Defense. But, hell, he is getting old and he is so rich why does he need a bigger resume’?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I’m inclined to agree with you. This attempt to get Kerry out of the senate, by using Rice as a scapegoat, only makes MaGoo and his cronies look like vengeful pricks. They say she’s not qualified? Have they ever seen her resume?

  • SallyT : KT, and of course that is bull because the art museums care more about those paintings and work to preserve them for everyone.

  • SallyT : If I were Kerry, I wouldn’t take an appointment and risk the Senate losing a seat to Brown.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, rich art collectors will tell you they are “saving,” these great works of art for all mankind. That may be true for some, but for many others, it’a an investment.

  • SallyT : AdLib, I have always wonder why someone rich wouldn’t want to have their employees happy and working hard for them. I mean, I would think you would get a better feeling from that than having another Rembrandt painting hanging on your wall. You can see a Rembrandt in a museum.

  • AdLib : Killgore – Won’t need a recess appointment, Rice will win a nomination straight up.

  • AdLib : There should be a real grassroots pushback against Walmart and the economic underminers of the middle class…once the economy gets better and people can better afford to shop elsewhere.

  • KillgoreTrout : There is always the recess appointment. Ala Bush.

  • bito : I would love to see all the workers at McDonalds strike for one Saturday

  • KillgoreTrout : How many here think Rice will get the appointment?

  • AdLib : Sally – Right with you on elevating Costco…over Walmart.

  • KillgoreTrout : bito, how dare they? :shock:

  • SallyT : Bito, yes they do. As I have said before, one of the biggest cost of any operations is the turnover of your work force. You lose so much when you lose an experience employee.

  • KillgoreTrout : I have to say, Americans (not all Americans) are the most spoiled people on the planet. So many have no idea how good they got it in life.

  • bito : Yep, COSTCO thinks if you treat your workers like crap you get crappy workers giving crappy service, duh.

  • SallyT : I love Joe, too. He was so funny looking for pies! He is right there with the people shopping and stopping to talk to anyone.

  • KillgoreTrout : I thought it was quite humorous to see Big Joe at Costco. I just love that guy. He’s straight up.

  • SallyT : I like all the attention Costco is getting right now. It shows you can pay your employees well and still make money. Not as much as the Waltons but you still can be rich.

  • KillgoreTrout : I certainly wouldn’t mind paying a little more if it would benefit everyone else’s lives. And I’m far from wealthy.

  • AdLib : Sorry to hear that Funk, hope you feel better soon! Looking forward to seeing you out here. Sleep well.

  • bito : Good night funk and PPOV thanks you for all the RT’s

  • KillgoreTrout : Always Funk. Always have to rage against the dying of the light.

  • AdLib : Sally – There really does need to be a big workers movement in this nation. If we could get Dems in control in the House in 2014, I would want to see Card Check pushed through. Imagine all Walmarts, Amazon, etc…unionized! Better pay and working conditions, the US economy would just take off!

  • SallyT : Good night, Funk. Hope you feel better but it will be hard with our weather right now.

  • funksands : Folks unfortunately I have to go. I’m a bit under the weather and am running out of steam. Bito, Ad, KT, Sally, keep the torch lit and good night!

  • bito : Warehouse workers is very close to slave labor. To get a livable wage is a joke to them, and those are the people that they want to work until 67

  • SallyT : Oh, you read that, too, Funk? Wasn’t that something.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, people keep chasing that American dream. I think it was once possible, but now I think one has to be asleep to believe in it.

  • SallyT : In the old days, they would have done a news story on the employees too.

  • funksands : Sally you stole my thunder, that was a really tough article to read!

  • SallyT : But, my main bitch is that NBC only took the corporate view.

  • SallyT : AdLib, there was a woman reporter from Mother Jones that went into Amazon as a holiday worker. It was terrible the way she was treated and all that the others working there were having to do.

  • KillgoreTrout : bito, LOL! Sometimes I think I’m lucky that I don’t think I’m a grapefruit.

  • AdLib : Sally – There’s a big lawsuit against Walmart and the warehouse companies they’ve contracted with for cheating workers out of salary and making them work in awful conditions.

  • SallyT : No they just said how wonderful Amazon was. But, they are terrible to the people working for them. I think NBC should have addressed the employees point of view, too.

  • SallyT : But, never, never, never did they ask how much those workers made, hours they worked, or if they got benefits.

  • bito : oops, my mistake, I thought you said you were going KT! Give me more drugs! ;-)

  • SallyT : He showed how big it was and how fast they got stuff out.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ah, always look forward to the weekend music threads. I love music, of all kinds and eras.

  • SallyT : On NBC last Brian Williams show, they had, oh I can’t remember his name, go to Amazon’s warehouse.

  • funksands : She’s been typing for a while….must be juicy…

  • KillgoreTrout : Let’s have it Sally.

  • AdLib : Sally – Yes?

  • funksands : Sally: Yes

  • bito : Good nite KT get those fingers warmed up for music tomorrow.

  • SallyT : Okay, I have a bitch. Want to hear it?

  • KillgoreTrout : Well, as long as my fingers obey.

  • AdLib : KT – Great, I’m here too.

  • SallyT : Good to hear, KT. I know you have more typing in ya!

  • AdLib : Night Sabreen! Have a great weekend!

  • KillgoreTrout : We got sort of a late start, so I guess I’m good to go for a while.

  • AdLib : Funk – Very precisely and simply put! That is indeed the nature of Repubs, their political beliefs are all about faith, they believe in government being bad just as they believe there was an ark that held all the animals in the world.

  • bito : Good night Queen! See you on the twitter

  • KillgoreTrout : Sweet dreams Sabreen.

  • SallyT : I wish you the same, Sabreen!

  • Sabreen60 : Well good folks if after midnight so I’ll wish you a good night and a great week.

  • AdLib : Funk, please do drop me an email when your schedule’s firming up. Enjoyed seeing you last time!

  • KillgoreTrout : Although it works very slowly, I still have faith in Natural Selection! ;) Just like Karma.

  • SallyT : We did dodge a big bullet there, AdLib. But so many of the rich now are making their money off of dividends and not corporations that have labor bases. The people woke up to that, I think.

  • AdLib : Funk – Though things work that way, it’s not by agreement. What happens is that the workers just become apathetic about their government when they are doing okay. Only when they are suffering do they push back against their corporate bosses. Then, things get better and workers get apathetic again, allowing the corporate bosses to take their government back from them.

  • funksands : Politics = Church for most Republicans

  • KillgoreTrout : How true, how true. The mid level GOPers, the low info ones, think education and science is a harmful thing. They are so threatened by any change in what they have been taught, they think remaining ignorant is the smart thing to do. GOPers are some of the most frightened people in America.

  • AdLib : Sally – So true but up until Obama’s election, it looked like the wealthy might advance far enough to cut off a peaceful swing back of the pendulum. They almost took over the government, the tax system, the Supreme Court for a generation…we really dodged a bullet. Had Romney been able to win, the peaceful path for the people to reverse things could have been blocked institutionally. Then what?

  • funksands : Ad, I’ll shoot you an email the first of the year once I know my schedule a little better.

  • SallyT : There was a woman being interviewed on Young Turks tonight that said she was a fan of Bill OReilly put after seeing this movie about the polar caps melting she has changed her mind. She was crying that it is very serious and we need to wake up.

  • funksands : Corporate Socialism has been the law of the land for 80 years. They treat their workers relatively well and in return, the workers stay off the streets, in return the workers elect the aristocracy to keep the wheels greased for the corporations. Comparatively and historically not a bad deal…but someone always gets greedy eventually.

  • AdLib : KT – The GOP has positioned itself as The Party of Idiots. They don’t believe in reality, math, polls, science, education…how can they act smart, it would alienate their base!

  • funksands : KT, now you are going to make me go look that up…

  • SallyT : AdLib, it always has happen that way in the past. The rich just get to full of themselves and greedy and the little guys get fed up with it and pull the rug out from under them.

  • KillgoreTrout : Funk, not kunk. My fingers aren’t obeying to commands right noe.

  • AdLib : Funk – Absolutely! Would be great to see you!

  • KillgoreTrout : Kunk, that line…”Say my name,” will go down in film history like DeNiro’s line from Taxi Driver….”You talkin to me?”

  • AdLib : It may not be clear now but the pendulum could be swinging back the other way for some time against the wealthy. With the ACA, the Consumer Protection board, raising taxes on the wealthy a very popular and inevitable thing…maybe these greedy bastards have had their run and after destroying our economy and getting bailed out by taxpayers, the payback begins and the pendulum swings back to the 98%.

  • funksands : Ad, FYI I’ll be in LA for a week Jan 6-13. Can I buy you lunch?

  • bito : Watching a rerun of The ED show, I didn’t know about the fast food workers going on strike! How fucking cool is that!?!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, “bright,” is just not a word that I would ever use to describe today’s GOP. They are just too hate filled to be able to properly reason. Emotion always distorts intellect. And if that emotion is strong enough, it PREVENTs the intellect from working, altogether.

  • funksands : Hi Sabreen!

  • Sabreen60 : Hey Funk.

  • funksands : Hi Sallie! KT, oddly enough I’ve never seen an episode of that show. My wife loves it.

  • AdLib : KT – Romney was the personification of the Entitlement Class. And these pigs think hammering on Romney’s campaign points is a winner for them? These guys are used to getting bonuses when they lose, they’re nowhere near as bright as they think they are.

  • SallyT : Same here, too, Funkie. Rain all weekend.

  • KillgoreTrout : Funk, was that a reference to the last season of Breaking Bad? An iconic line by Walter White, aka Heisenberg. “SAY MY NAME!”

  • SallyT : Hello Funkie!

  • funksands : Raining raining raining raining here. Very glooooomy and depressing. Time to get out of here.

  • SallyT : Those CEO can work until they are 80 but lets see them work hard labor or standing at a cashier all day or serving people etc etc and see if they can work longer than 65.

  • funksands : Hi everyone! Thought I’d drop in for a minute.

  • KillgoreTrout : FUNK!

  • AdLib : Bring in da Funk!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, it’s their over inflated view of themselves as being “superior.” They will always look down on those less fortunate.

  • AdLib : Bito – That’s what’s so disgusting about that CEO group going around pushing for entitlement cuts for the 98% and tax cuts for themselves. Pigs and they are doomed to lose this time around.

  • funksands : Somebody say my name?

  • AdLib : KT – Yep, Repubs have to believe in Trickle Down like it was Biblical. Facts be damned, history and proof be damned, it just HAS to be true!

  • SallyT : AdLib, yes. That would get the baby boomers out of the work force. If you wanted them to work longer, pay them a bonus too.

  • KillgoreTrout : hey, I tell ya, I don’t get no respect. (tugs at collar nervously) LOL!

  • SallyT : AdLib, I also think that the President saw how much the people got behind him and all he was campaigning for, that he is not about to let them down.

  • bito : funksands profile funksands Corporate profits at all time HIGH Corporate taxes collected as a % of federal revenue at all time LOW. Yep, time for entitlement cuts. #p2

  • KillgoreTrout : The GOPers will never understand, or admit, that when the middle class has more money to spend, the economy will improve. It’s elementary economics, but they refuse to accept that if social safety nets are involved. It’s pure spite.

  • AdLib : Sally – Just take off the Medicare contribution cap and watch what happens. That and some other reforms could do it all.

  • AdLib : Killgore – I think that’s the approach of a smart and respectful person. Or just someone who lives by the Golden Rule, treat others as you would like to be treated. Obama shows respect and it’s been portrayed as weakness. Big mistake. Now the Repubs, like Rodney Dangerfield, get no respect.

  • SallyT : That is true, AdLib. I read an article by some professor that said it would be better to lower the retirement age for three years than raise it.

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t either Sally.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, i just think Obama has, or tries to have a higher opinion of some people, that they don’t rate. Obama is, if nothing else, a true optimist.

  • AdLib : Sally – The Dems and Obama are smart, they can toss out Medicare reform plans that don’t cut benefits or raise eligibility age. The Repubs don’t want to say out loud what they want, they will be trapped.

  • SallyT : I don’t see the American people, dem or repub, going for cutting Medicare until they see the 2% give more.

  • AdLib : Killgore, it was a last desperate gambit…defying belief. Romney could only do it once, flip around and just lie about everything, trying to suddenly change his skin into that of a liberal/moderate . I don’t blame Obama for being taken by surprise and off balance but it was clear that he was trying to play it safe, a dumb move in a Presidential election that was as close as it was.

  • KillgoreTrout : Excellent Sally! ;)

  • KillgoreTrout : Obama is officially untethered. The repubs just don’t seem to realize that now. They can’t waste time trying to smear Obama, he can’t serve another term anyway. But I think their hatred will continue to make fools of themselves.

  • SallyT : Yes, KT, her horse can’t dance any better than Mitt.

  • SallyT : As they say, AdLib, he’s got nothing to lose now.

  • AdLib : Sally – Obama’s not playing it safe now and agreed, those days are over!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally and even her horse lost!

  • AdLib : Killgore – Oh yeah, the Carter connection to the 47% video, hammering the Repubs who use Jimmy as their whipping boy for every Dem candidate…so sweet!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, and a total lack of realizing reality.

  • SallyT : KT, LOL, Ann Romney has the horse.

  • AdLib : Killgore – And it sure looked like a good bet after the 2010 elections, Obama looked very beatable and Repubs felt invincible. Repubs are addicted to many things and hubris is one of them.

  • KillgoreTrout : Obama is the consummate chess player. He may have underestimated Romney’s nastiness before the first debate, but he learned quite a lot about what to expect in the following debates. Romney is a one trick pony.

  • SallyT : I got a feeling, AdLib, that the President isn’t going to take that “play it safe” advice any longer.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ah, the Carter revenge. Karma can be so sweet sometimes.

  • AdLib : Bito – Exactly! Once Obama’s team defined Romney in the Summer, Romney was trapped. And it was true! What he did was disarm Romney of the bounce he got from the 1st debate…until the 1st debate. And just think, if Obama had ignored the advice to play it safe in that debate, Romney would probably have lost by an even bigger margin.

  • SallyT : He put it on the YouTube and Jimmy’s grandson found it and brought it to everyone’s attention. That was great!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, good point. They were so over-confident of a win. that they never thought about “what if.” I’m sure they never thought Obama would win a second time. Foolish bastards. But then again, it’s to our favor.

  • SallyT : The story I heard was the bartender was just recording that he attended bar that night. Didn’t know it was going to show the jerk Romney really is.

  • AdLib : Thanks Sabreen, always appreciate Deaniac’s POV!

  • SallyT : And, you have to thank Jimmy Carter’s grandson for making it public for all to see!

  • bito : AdLib, and his camp defined him early and kept it up during the whole campaign

  • AdLib : KT – So true, they had totally committed to hating Obama and damaging the nation’s economy to make him a one-termer, they are just confused now about what to do…they never planned on having to legislate!

  • Sabreen60 : This is Deaniac’s (The Peoples View) on the moves PBO is making on the Repubs. «link»

  • SallyT : But, I think that tape really did the number. It was the truth from the Romney mouth. And, he is still saying it!

  • KillgoreTrout : Exactly bito. If Romney ever had a chance before that video came out, it was gone once the video was made public. You just can’t shit on half of the American people and still expect to win.

  • AdLib : Sally – Yes, meant to reply to your comment but really looking forward to the Norquat cartoons!

  • AdLib : Bito – No question, the 47% tape was the slam dunk on Romney. I think he would have lost anyway but that video got the message across so perfectly and quickly about who Romney really was and what he represented. Still, Obama’s campaign had done a great job of defining Romney as the greedy slime he was.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, the GOPers are suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome. The fact that he’s pres drives them crazy…literall y. They are so filled with spite, it’s affected their sanity. I really mean that, too.

  • SallyT : It works Sabreen. You have to put that on the Funnies page!

  • Sabreen60 : I don’t know if this link will work, but personally I thought the cartoon was hilarious. «link»

  • SallyT : I have lots of Norquacker cartoons for Sunday, AdLib.

  • bito : It doesn’t really matter, the tape did damage –Large damage.

  • SallyT : KT, yes, that is right.

  • AdLib : The GOP is so screwed, they insist on cutting Medicare but won’t give any details on cuts. They don’t want taxes raised and have signed Grover’s pledge…but trying to stonewall Obama means raising taxes…and blocking Obama comes first. This is going to get ugly for Repubs.

  • KillgoreTrout : Whoever it was, probably drove the final nail in Romney’s political coffin.

  • bito : I didn’t see that Sabreen, I don’t think we follow ‘him”

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally I guess repubs would have rear view blinders. It’s impossible for them to see ahead.

  • SallyT : Sabreen, that was the bartender’s story, too. Said had the camera sitting on the bar. I don’t know, tho, if that is true.

  • SallyT : No, KT, they put those on horses so they could only see forward. Not republicans.

  • AdLib : On the other hand, wouldn’t it just bury the GOP to be the party of tax increases on the 98%?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, you’ve got it.

  • Sabreen60 : Sally, This person on Twitter says he/she is the person that sat up the camera.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, and republicans.

  • AdLib : Killgore – You mean “more blinder”?

  • SallyT : They use to put those on horses, KT.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally I could see, now I’m getting blinder. Is blinder a word?

  • AdLib : I think it’s a 50/50 bet on whether the Repubs will agree to the 98% tax cuts before year’s end. The sooner the better but if the Repubs let taxes rise on 98% because they’re holding out for the 2%? They could be DOA in the 2014 elections.

  • Sabreen60 : Ahh KT you’re never too old to care :)

  • SallyT : I heard it was the bartender at the gathering.

  • Sabreen60 : BTW, is it true that @AnneOnymous670 (Twitter name) is the person who set of the 47% tape?

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen I was lost, but now I’m too old to care! ;)

  • SallyT : I was blind and now I can see.

  • Sabreen60 : Hey KT. I was once lost but now I’m found.

  • AdLib : Damn Bito, that sucks! Please rest, drink lots of fluids and feel better soon!

  • SallyT : Sorry to hear that Bito.

  • KillgoreTrout : hey Sabreen, I too was among the lost.

  • AdLib : And Romney was treated as a rube by his handlers as well, pretty funny. They needed him to believe the BS so he could act like they wanted him to. Repubs are snakes devouring themselves.

  • Sabreen60 : Take care of yourself Bito.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sorry to hear that bito. Best wishes.

  • bito : Hey, just sorta lurking, I have a killer cold along with everything else.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi everyone who appeared while I was lost.

  • AdLib : Bito – Yes, saw that and also heard that Romney aides weren’t surprised that they were wrong! So, seems to me that it was an intentional fraud used to keep the money flowing to Romney.

  • SallyT : KT, you know me….

  • AdLib : Hey Bito!

  • AdLib : Killgore and Sally – I won’t underestimate the self-destructive ness of Repubs but it’s clear, the best deal they’ll get is before the end of the year. When 98% of Americans are screaming in phone calls to them and flooding them with angry emails and faxes, they’ll fold fast.

  • bito : Did everyone see how far off the R’s and Mitt were on their internal polling? 5-8-10 points off and they were believing it! Wouldn’t you think that there was something wrong when your poll was such an outlier? Not them I guess.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, you naughty girl. LOL! I guess it could be called a ‘hosing.”

  • SallyT : KT, I just think they might hold out since so many of them won’t be there after the 1st of the year.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I think the repubs will eventually cave. They always talk a big game, until the final hours. Just think how it would make them look in the eyes of the American people. They are still smarting from the ass whoopin they got on the 6th. And they know why.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – Some server issues tonight that I can’t fully iron out, may be a bit slow at times but should pick up.

  • SallyT : Give it a blow job, AdLib.

  • Sabreen60 : Lost you guys for a minute. Ghost in the machine?

  • AdLib : I’m going to hose down this server tomorrow!

  • SallyT : I don’t think so, AdLib.

  • SallyT : Sabreen is back! I think anyway, she is showing above now.

  • AdLib : So, who thinks there will be a deal on the 98% tax cuts before the 1st?

  • KillgoreTrout : Well Sally if just us three, I’m sure all will enjoy. I think maybe some others had trouble getting connected and gave up for the evening.

  • SallyT : Well, I always have enjoyed being out with two guys!

  • SallyT : KT, I am fine and you?

  • AdLib : Sally, could be the case, we’ll see!

  • SallyT : KT, I always think it is Comcast trying to make me think I should pay them more for a faster connection.

  • KillgoreTrout : hey Sally, mu bud! Hope all is well in your corner of this big blue marble.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, you do wonders around here. Much appreciated. I always suspect my aging laptop first.

  • AdLib : Killgore – She’s not the first to suggest it but I agree with her, the tactic seems so obvious.

  • SallyT : Okay, AdLib, it says on my screen that it is just you and KT with me. Is that true?

  • AdLib : Hey Sally, glad you’re back!

  • KillgoreTrout : I loved Rachel Maddow’s theory on why Mr. Maggo and his minions are trying so hard to discredit Rice. It makes a lot of sense to me.

  • AdLib : Killgore – Yep, something funky going on with our server tonight, I’ve tried what I could for the time being so though it may slow down a little, it seems to be a little more stable right now.

  • SallyT : KT we have had Republican obstruction tonight!

  • SallyT : Hi KT!

  • SallyT : Now I think I am here??

  • SallyT : I refreshed and it wouldn’t come back so I logged out and back in.

  • KillgoreTrout : hey folks, I hope all is well. I’ve had some difficulty getting connected tonight.

  • SallyT : That was what I was saying AdLib and then the server went down.

  • AdLib : Sabreen, right with you on that but I like how Obama is going around the media game and taking it right to the public. If taxes go up on the 98%, it won’t matter what the media says, people will be on a rampage against Repubs.

  • AdLib : Night Glenn!

  • glenn : Good night all!

  • AdLib : Glenn – Maybe Dems need to preface everything with “Benghazi” to get it on tv?

  • glenn : Uh-oh seems the server is slowing down again! Sorry, folks, time to turn in!

  • AdLib : Glenn – I think we’re seeing that right now, Obama is smarter today when it comes to dealing with Repubs and he didn’t suffer the indignity of the election just to hand over a decisive affirmation from the people. He’s going to make the best case for why the Repubs will be responsible for the tax hikes on the 98% and if they don’t deal, when the 1st of the year comes and people are howling, they will pummel the GOP into submission.

  • Sabreen60 : What gets me (I don’t know why at this point) is that the media won’t call BS on the Repubs. Boehner wants PBO to present what should be cut. Hell it’s the Repubs who want to do all the cutting. They need to put on their big drawers and lay it out there. PBO is never going to do what they want.

  • glenn : AdLib–well you know it is the “liberal media”. Did you forget to mention “benghazi”?

  • AdLib : Kes – Yes! This should be blasted throughout the media but isn’t! That big talking point of the Repubs and Romney was “He’s cutting $716 billion from Medicare!” and now they’re whining that he won’t slash Medicare?! Where the hell is the media in exploding this hypocrisy?

  • glenn : AdLib–Really, really hope PBO stands firm!

  • SallyT : And, the President is out there telling the people to be prepared.

  • AdLib : And what’s just ridiculous is Boehner and the Repubs saying they won’t agree to tax increases. They don’t have a choice! They stonewall and on 1/1/2013, bye-bye tax cuts.

  • kesmarn : I read somewhere that the Rs were complaining all through the campaign that Obama was planning to “cut your Medicare,” and now they’re complaining because he won’t cut Medicare.

  • glenn : Sally and AdLib–It’s the same old “talking points”, obstructionism, and b.s.!

  • SallyT : And, I like that the President won’t!

  • Sabreen60 : It appears that Boehner would like President Obama to negotiate with President Obama. Somebody needs to hide the keys to the liquor cabinet.

  • AdLib : It does seem that the Repub scheme was to say they would listen to the people after the election then just whine that Obama won’t do what they want.

  • kesmarn : There you go!

  • glenn : Hey Kes–I prefer “great minds think alike”. :)

  • kesmarn : Jinx, glenn!

  • kesmarn : Rs don’t know the meaning of the word “serve” AdLib. So “server” just sounds like an “illegal” working at the Olive Garden to them.

  • glenn : AdLib–good one. I didn’t know there was such a thing as a republican server–’cause they’re sure not serving the American public!

  • SallyT : AdLib, tell the server that the polls were wrong and Get Over It!!

  • SallyT : They seem to me, Kes, that they think Romney won since they are putting everything he was campaigning on up.

  • glenn : Kes–I agree the republicans/tpar tiers are acting like they won, or that we didn’t even have an election at all, and that the majority of the American people haven’t made their views known.

  • AdLib : I knew I shouldn’t have gone with the Repub server for this site, it doesn’t run well and just wants to cut services.

  • kesmarn : Sally, if only the Rs would work on the 165 days they’re supposed to be there…!

  • kesmarn : So…I haven’t seen much media coverage of the looming fiscal speed bump, except that David Brooks is very angry with Timmy Geitner for an initial offer that is “unacceptable. ” You’d think the Rs had won the election!

  • SallyT : Not that they have done anything this year when they are there.

  • SallyT : Did you see on Rachel tonight how many days the new Congress is taking off next year? It is over 200!

  • glenn : Kes–those, too.

  • SallyT : AdLib, we are with you!

  • glenn : Sally–I especially like the alliteration.

  • AdLib : What a pain in the butt, sorry folks. Trying to get the server running a bit smoother.

  • kesmarn : …misogynistic, racist, immature and weepy?

  • SallyT : Jerks, jokers, and jackasses?

  • glenn : AdLib–are there any other kinds of republican besides vindictive? Well…never mind, there are hateful, ignorant, reality denying, oppositional, sociopathic. Who’s got more to add to the list?

  • SallyT : That’s from the movie Overboard.

  • kesmarn : Hey, Sabreen! It’s not just you. Apparently server issues and the chief is working on it as we speak…

  • SallyT : Sabreen, it is a hell of a day at sea, sir!

  • Sabreen60 : Hi folks. Had a hell of time logging on.

  • kesmarn : Back to having problems posting again, unfortunately…

  • SallyT : Thanks Glenn!

  • glenn : Sally–looks like you’re live from here

  • AdLib : I think this is the work of vindictive Republicans.

  • AdLib : Trying to make it a smoother ride on Vox, be right with you on tonight’s topics. A round of drinks on me in the meantime!

  • SallyT : Okay, I understand that. Am I live on here?

  • glenn : Sally–depends on your definition of here.

  • AlphaBitch : Am I drunk?

  • SallyT : Am I here?

  • AlphaBitch : Kes: Multi layers would be nice. We decorated our tree and put our Obama Claus ornament on. Looks really nice now.

  • kesmarn : AB, in hindsight, I shoulda put the stickers on the side panels of my car…kinda cushion the blow a little?

  • AlphaBitch : So I’ve been MIA for weeks now. What’s happening?????

  • AlphaBitch : Yes, thank you AdLib.

  • AlphaBitch : That car vandalism is a chicken shit thing to do. Come ask me about the sticker – I’ll be glad to tell you what you need to know. But to damage it because you don’t agree with me is so…….Republi can……

  • kesmarn : To AdLib, after one message that took a while to register, it seems much better now.

  • glenn : AdLib–Seems to be working a little quicker now.

  • SallyT : Poor AdLib!

  • AdLib : Any better now?

  • AlphaBitch : Sorry AdLib, didn’t mean to snarl at ya.

  • kesmarn : I think a few people parked close to me and opened their side doors REAL HARD into the sides of my car after I put my two stickers (Marcy Kaptur and Barack Obama) on my car, AB. You’ll have fun rollin’ through those states!

  • AdLib : Trying to work on it now, AB.

  • AlphaBitch : NO AdLib. I’m having a bitch of a time – and not an alpha one either…

  • AlphaBitch : Kes – we’re putting it on the ole Subaru and driving to TN/IN/MO next week. Can’t wait to see the reaction. To key or not to key, that is my question……

  • kesmarn : I think funkie usually shows up a bit later… Or is it “later” right now?

  • AdLib : Hey all, a little server trouble, how is the site running for everyone else?

  • glenn : Hey AdLib–server is a little slow tonight.

  • AlphaBitch : Am I this drunk? Where’s the FunkMan?

  • kesmarn : AB!! We keep missing each other. Don’t worry about the stickers. Just relax for now! You’ve been a busy lady!

  • glenn : AB–I hope PBO is serious about not touching Social Security. And that he is serious about standing up to the bullies in the republican/tpart y.

  • kesmarn : Hey, glenn! uh-oh…and everything just stalled out as I tried to send that…

  • AlphaBitch : Kes!!!! I owes you those stickers, gal. I’ve just been too busy to do ANYTHING fun at all. Tonight is a first…

  • kesmarn : Hello there, Sally! How’s your Friday?

  • AdLib : Having a little server issue, is the site working ok for you?

  • glenn : Hello to AdLib and Good Friday to Kesmarn

  • AlphaBitch : Hey AdLib! What’s shakin’, bacon?

  • SallyT : And hello there Kes!

  • SallyT : Hello AB and AdLib!

  • glenn : AB–okay “AB” it is.

  • kesmarn : Is we is or is we ain’t “up”? Good Friday, All!

  • AlphaBitch : As to the cliff: I have no dog in the fight. I just love watching PBO stand tall, though. Give ‘em …..nothing. Just nothing. Bite me.

  • AdLib : Howdy all!

  • SallyT : Hello there Glenn.

  • AlphaBitch : You can call me AB, glenn. Many do. Others however call me bitch. Just bitch.

  • glenn : Hi Sally

  • AlphaBitch : He’s baaaaacccckkkkk! ! Quick turn over the controls.

  • SallyT : I made it! Wow, sorry AdLib. It looks like you have been having a bad night.

  • glenn : Hey Alpha–(I feel I don’t know you well enough to call you “bitch”). How are you? So..the question of the week, I guess, is to go or not to go over the fiscal cliff?

  • AlphaBitch : Hey glenn – Ad Lib seems to have abandoned ship.

  • glenn : Hi AdLib–Oh, Oh, Oh, Boehner’s crying! I love it!

  • AlphaBitch : Whew. I thought it was me…maybe it IS me! Wow. It’s me. Que paso, ‘migo?

  • AdLib : Hey there, sorry, we were down for a few minutes. Don’t forget to say “hi” or “Oh, Oh, Oh, Boehner’s Crying” when you arrive.

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!