• AdLib : That’s where you’ll find me!

  • SallyT : Good night, AdLib! See you in the Funny Papers!

  • AdLib : Night Bito! Night Sally!

  • SallyT : Good night, Bito!

  • SallyT : No need, AdLib, Bito and I know where your mind is!

  • bito : Good night, all

  • AdLib : I’m not sayin’ nuttin’!

  • SallyT : But, it’s a lot of fun, Bito!

  • bito : It’s not funny when it’s not big Sally ;-)

  • AdLib : Sally – Sounds great! It’s been a big hit!

  • SallyT : Sex is big in the funnies!

  • bito : me too Sally, check out that link. «link»

  • SallyT : You or Bito will be checking out my Funnies before then! I have a lot this time!

  • AdLib : Looks like it’s that time, wrapping up another invigorating edition of Vox Populi! Thanks Sally and Bito, have a great evening, a wonderful weekend and a fantastic Thanksgiving (though I’ll see you here before then I hope!)

  • SallyT : Bito, I am sometimes asleep when I am awake on here!

  • bito : Good night Murph, Good night, C’lady, sorry I missed everyone tonight. I take a nap whenever I can. ;-)

  • SallyT : Good night, CL, and have a wonderful Thanksgiving!

  • AdLib : Night CL and a wonderful Thanksgiving to you too! Hope you have a great two weeks!

  • choicelady : Good night Murph and all – my computer is freezing up, so I’m getting off line and bidding all good night! I won’t be on the next two weeks (maybe only one) so have a wonderful Thanksgiving everyone, and we will talk intermittently via regular posts. Good night!

  • AdLib : Bito – Like the cartoon!

  • AdLib : Bito – Nope, that’s a different guy, Gary Larson was the cartoonist for The Far Side, This is kind of a tribute/parody thing.

  • SallyT : Costco good!

  • bito : I’m not positive it’s the same guy AdLib, but these are good

  • AdLib : Sleep well Murph! Have a wonderful weekend!

  • SallyT : I’d call Claire, Murph, and tell her to put her gloves on and get over there and help you know.

  • AdLib : Sally – And definitely feel free to shop at Costco, they are pro-union, pro-living-wage. A good corporate citizen.

  • bito : «link»

  • SallyT : AdLib, I never shop at Walmart. I don’t even know where one is.

  • AdLib : Bito – I was a big fan of Gary Larson! He’s back at it? I will definitely check out your link!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : OK all…I am still catching up on farm work…so far behind thanks to work for Claire….but it was worth…I am pooped so to bed and up early. Take care all.

  • SallyT : You can shop at Sears and KMart, tho. They gave 300 million dollars in supplies to the Sandy Hurricane Relief.

  • bito : OT! did anyone read and like “The Far Side”? The ones where you went ‘I don’t get it!” The illustrator/crea tor is alive and drawing on the web. Check out the Sunday funnies, I left a link to him. I loved that cartoon!

  • AdLib : Sally – Not only have I never shopped at WalMart, my 9 year old daughter has already been well educated never to shop there and why.

  • SallyT : Well, that is true, too, Murph!

  • AdLib : Murph – Same here, I feel like we have turned a big corner at the last moment, when we could have turned the other way into a devastating head on collision. We are finally back on course…a Progressive course that the majority of Americans have endorsed. Center right country, no way!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally….don’t shop at Wal Mart ever….so bad for America and its businesses.

  • SallyT : Hey, don’t anybody shop at WalMart on Black Friday!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…not FDR…TR

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…to me this election has the feel of the turn toward progressivism that happened at the turn of the 19th into the 20th century marked by FDR’s ascent to power, state movements and reform in the Senate.

  • AdLib : Bito – Great point! I know that the exchanges have to be set up in states in accordance with federal guidelines.

  • choicelady : Murph – next photo of the cat: “Burp”.

  • SallyT : Once it all kicks in and those states that take the ACA and are doing great, those others will be wanting it, too.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL Clearly you think Jesus is the guy in the Gospels and not the one promoted by the Churches…..Her esy!

  • AdLib : If Romney had won, we’d be looking at the fait accompli of Plutocracy, the death of universal health care, more wars, greater division of wealth, disintegration of society under slashed social programs…and instead, we’ve got tax increases on the wealthy, universal healthcare locked in, getting out of wars and support for the poor and middle class. This election could well be seen in history as an enormous turning point in the history of the United States.

  • bito : What is dumb AdLib, I don’t think that there has ever been a medicaid change/waver ever denied. The states has a lot of leeway on how to set up the site, is that not right C’Lady?

  • choicelady : Murph – I think Jesus would LOVE the Cannes Festival. It’s his followers who wouldn’t.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I tawt I taw a putty cat! I did! I did!

  • choicelady : Murph I am over the moon that the feds will handle your health plan and the Baggers are too stupid to see it. Back to my fave photo of the parakeet pecking the cat’s tail as the cat watches quietly. Caption: “For one, bright, shining moment, Parakeet thought he’d won.”

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Oh choice now you are quibbling. Jesus is worth losing the Cannes festival.

  • AdLib : Bito – Indeed and the Baggers have cut off their noses to spite their faces on this one. By passing state laws saying they won’t do it themselves, they smile in satisfaction as the Feds walk into their state and manage the whole thing.

  • choicelady : Murph – well speak for yourself! I think the FRENCH might have a few objections to the Christianization of their Mediterranean! Where would they hold the Cannes Festival?

  • SallyT : CL, but most of those taxes in France go right back to the people in all those “free” gifts from the government.

  • bito : The States letting the Feds do it is a real loser for the states.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…after we annex S. France we would clean it up (except for the topless part) capitalist and Christian.

  • AdLib : CL – It would be such a cool stealth project! Set it up like it’s a site by and for Baggers, to show America that they won’t be a part of Obama’s America…then get them to give up their citizenship and voting rights willingly out of spite! Hey, if you’re dumb enough to willingly do that, what’s wrong about helping them?

  • choicelady : Murph – the Tea Party was MADE for Forrest Gump. Stupid is as stupid does.

  • SallyT : Murph, I meant it wasn’t the Federal Government that closed him down. Sorry!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally. Exactly Earlier tonight we were discussing how Mo. passed a referendum that would not let the state government set up its own health exchange so now we have to have a federal one. The Tea Party thought they won that one but they lost.

  • choicelady : Murph – he would HATE France (save for the topless part) because it’s socialist, and it has high taxes. No win for him.

  • SallyT : They don’t even know who to be mad at!

  • choicelady : AdLib – even if it had no force of law, the fact they did give up their citizenship could be used against them. Renouncing your citizenship is SERIOUS stuff.

  • SallyT : Murph, he is so stupid, that was the Federal Government that closed his business but the state and the city.

  • AdLib : Night Sabreen! Take care!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice….he might like Southern France, but then we would have to annex S. France and the French might object. No plan is perfect.

  • AdLib : I was discussing with Bito that we should set up a website or something with a binding legal form that these loonies could sign, renouncing their citizenship. They’d do it out of spite and the instant they did, they give up voting and all other citizenship rights. A win-win!

  • SallyT : Sabreen, good night!

  • choicelady : ‘Night Sabreen!

  • choicelady : Murph – well poor guy, not having a clue which gubbmint to blame for losing his topless car wash permit. Can he leave Alabama for…well, I don’t know where.

  • bito : Night KT,KQ, Sabreen

  • SallyT : I think all those crazy people should secede and give it all back to the Native Americans for Thanksgiving!

  • AdLib : Bito, great to see you but if you need to chill, don’t hesitate.

  • choicelady : Hi bito – great to see you!

  • choicelady : ‘Night KQ and KT!

  • AdLib : Murph – I have never felt more optimistic about the smart and honset people having the edge over the greedy, ignorant and/or dishonest people.

  • bito : I’m barely here, sorta, kinda

  • Sabreen60 : I’m saying good night, too. Take care everyone.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…yep…thes e people really are stupid

  • AdLib : Hey Bito! There you are!

  • bito : Good night k’es

  • AdLib : Murph – So the logic of this genius is, “I want the state that ruined my business to have total control over me!” Brilliant.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : SECESSION PETITION FOR ALABAMA..the author is upset with government regulation that ruin his business…a female staffed topless car wash…closed down by the state of Al. Confused. «link» The Leadership of the New America.

  • AdLib : Night KT! Enjoy your snack and have a great weekend!

  • kesmarn : Oops…I missed a bunch of people leaving. ‘Night, All!

  • AdLib : Night KQ! Have a relaxing weekend!

  • kesmarn : Wow…midnight already. I must bow out. Work again tomorrow. (Unless I get on-call. Fingers crossed.) Have a great weekend!

  • KillgoreTrout : Well good people, time to make a midnight snack! As always, it’s been a pleasure.

  • AdLib : KQ – My point is, we would have been up around maybe $8 trillion dollars in 2008 when the crash happened from where we were under Bush. We only spent less than $1 trillion bailing out the banks, that would have left us $7 trillion to do what else we needed to do. My point is, it wouldn’t have been as big and as drawn out a recovery in the end. And Gore wouldn’t have written a blank check to the banks which would have made another huge difference…plu s, we night have gotten anti-too-big-to- fail laws in place.

  • choicelady : Well the folks calling for bringing back Glass-Steagall have no idea what it did. And Glass and Steagall are dead, so we’d need a new name. And we do. Volker Rule. They need ot get with the program. It takes into account that many banks and even credit unions now have multifaceted financial services we all want. What we don’t want is interpenetrated money that makes small banks, credit unions, and purely commercial banks all vulnerable to investment ones. Volker takes note of the good and gets rid of the bad. And no one seems to know it.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Have a good night folks. Gonna sign off a little early.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, yes, he was only boxed in on three sides. The unguarded side just “happened to be closest to The Pakistanis mountains.

  • kesmarn : c;lady, yes, we still have a long way to go before Wall Street is cleaned up. Another area where R obstructionism has taken its toll.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Agree with that one CL. Also you just can’t put the water back under the bridge with G-S. The problems need new solutions.

  • Sabreen60 : Sally, I missed that photo.

  • choicelady : KT – I totally agree that the sudden pullback in tora bora was deliberately done to let bin Laden go.

  • choicelady : Sally – that photo was priceless and right up there with Rmoney.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, that was hilarious. I just love GOPTP spelling. It’s like Palin’s diction.

  • AdLib : Sabreen, that amuses me, a petition to impeach Obama…for crimes not yet figured out. Yep, you can reverse an election with a petition, that’s the way US democracy works. BTW, the group behind all of this is doing it to raise money off the rubes, exploiting their hatred to profit off the fools. Maybe that’s a good think in the end.

  • choicelady : kes – the Poutrage Left refuses to understand that the firewall that is the critical issue in Glass Steagall now is the Volker rule. If we can get Congress to fund and move out on that issue, we can restore the firewall between commercial and investment banking money again. I personally want some action on the Clayton ACt. It remains unchanged legally, but interlocking directorates are as common as mud. We need it enforced!

  • kesmarn : KQ, the housing bubble would have been tough for Gore to have prevented. The corruption on Wall Street I think he would have made a real effort on that one.

  • KillgoreTrout : I actually think that bin Laden was allowed to escape from Tora Bora. I don’t think it was accidental that he escaped into Pakistan.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…the Northern Alliance went to the Bonn Conference and presented a plan to put the king back on the Afghan throne and to rule through a jirha goya, a council of tribal and village/city leaders, like the Saudi’s, BUT the U.S. would not support it. They wanted an urban, and Western oriented government- Karzai, an Asian Israel, and access to the heavy metals (that China has now moved in on)

  • SallyT : Sabreen, did you see that picture I posted of them holding the signs of letters and they couldn’t spell it?

  • KQµårk 死神 : Sure things would be better under Gore but I just don’t see how Gore would stop the housing bubble.

  • Sabreen60 : I didn’t know you spelled in “teabag” :)

  • SallyT : Sabreen, I was giving you the TeaBag spelling of it.

  • choicelady : kes – Yes Gramm and a couple of others rammed through the elimination of Glass Steagall, but I don’t think they had a 2/3 in both houses. Clinton was a wuss and signed it anyway.

  • Sabreen60 : oops. It’s secede.

  • AdLib : KQ – Imagine, without the Bush tax cuts, the Prescription bill, the Iraq war and the extended Afghanistan war, even if the 2008 crash happened, it would have happened under a booming economy with budget surpluses so the impact would have been greatly reduced and we would have rebounded far quicker.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I think if it weren’t for 9/11 01, Bush would never have won a second term. He and Cheney, and their minions at FOX had the country paralized with fear. Fear was their greatest political tool.

  • Sabreen60 : Actually Sally it’s

  • kesmarn : KT, yes many pix of Bush hugging, kissing and holding hands with the Saudis. Double standard as always.

  • choicelady : Sally – I thought it was sedeec?

  • choicelady : kes – one site, forget which, had some idiot screaming that the ACA was unconstitutional . When cooler heads reminded her that the Supreme Court found it constitutional, she went ballistic. You cannot placate these people in any way at all.

  • Sabreen60 : Thanks Sally.

  • kesmarn : c’lady, I remember the housing situation that way as well. It seems to me it was Phil Gramm (R) who rammed through the repeal of Glass-Steagall and Clinton only signed it because a veto would have been over-ridden anyway.

  • AdLib : Agreed Murph, Afghanistan would probably have been an action that was over in full in less than 2 years if it was handled properly by Gore instead of neglected by Bush.

  • SallyT : Sabreen, that is seceed.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Exactly Kes and that was going to happen with a Repub or Dem president unfortunately. We also have to assume congress would be in the hands of Repugs early in a Gore presidency too.

  • KillgoreTrout : Kes, remember the photos of bush kissing that Saudi Prince? And the GOPers had the nerve to bash Obama for bowing to the Japanese Prime Minister.

  • choicelady : KT – you nailed that one for sure! Bin Laden was good NOT found, and useless if captured or killed.

  • Sabreen60 : So I understand that every state has a petition on the WH petition site to secede. There are also “petitions” to impeach PBO. Repubs think disliking a president is enough to impeach him.

  • AdLib : KT – The RW and Fox are so desperate to “tar and feather” Obama over a scandal. Think about it, every President in recent memory has been hit by a scandal…except Obama! It just doesn’t make sense to them, it’s not fair, “We must be able to get some scandal to stick to him!!!”

  • choicelady : KQ – actually increasing home ownership was NOT a Dem move at least not how it happened since they did not control Congress, 1994-2006. By the time they were back in contro, 2007, the home mortgage collapse was totally underway. New Century financial, etc. were falling like dominoes, and here in CA we started to see the end as early as 2004!! There is no way this was the responsibility of Dems – the unregulated financial mortgage market never came under the CRA anyway, and the deregulation of banks to BUY those morgages WAS permitted by Clinto, but the Dems in Congress had no say over it.

  • kesmarn : Another coke, Sally.

  • SallyT : KT, that is right! He was their boogey man! And, I think the Bush family does business with the BinLaden family, too.

  • kesmarn : KT, I agree. Bush didn’t want to kill bin Laden. He was a member of the Saudi royal family and they and the Bush tribe go waaay back.

  • KQµårk 死神 : AdLib from what I’ve seen the only thing that the GOP base does not accept from Libertarianism is cutting national defense drastically. Like you said the whole liberal part of Libertarianism is a joke anyway.

  • KillgoreTrout : I meant, nearly 3,000, not 300. OOPS!

  • AdLib : Sally – I owe Cokes to Kes and Murph, they beat me to it! Aw hell, I’ll buy a six pack!

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t think bush/cheney wanted to kill or capture bin Laden. He was much more useful to them as a living, breathing boogey man to sacre voters into thinking bush was neccessary to our national security.

  • kesmarn : I agree, KQ, the housing bubble was going to burst no matter what. It was bundling those bad debts, falsely labeling them as AAA credit risks and peddling them around the world that made it so much worse.

  • SallyT : Sabreen, McCain is just an old goat.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, I never expected them to change their ways. Repubs never believe a Dem has the right to be President. They constantly look for ways to bring him down.

  • AdLib : KQ – But Baggers are just Libertarians in name only, just on certain issues as you say. They would never sign onto full libertarianism, they don’t want women having choice, gays marrying or freedom of any religion except Christianity.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Bottom line I think under Gore 911 would probably not happen but the financial crisis in 2008 would.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….let’s recall that the Afghan war in its first 18 months involved 5000 troops, most in support roles, the complete capitulation of the Taliban to the Northern Alliance…and then we back the wrong party for leadership and decided to do state building there….It could have been over and done in 18 months.

  • choicelady : Murph – I have NO doubt that Gore would have read and heeded the morning reports on Al Qae’da! More to the point – I worked with a multijurisdictio nal task force including the FBI through Feb. 2001. Shortly after that, the FBI was pulled OUT not of the investigation but of cooperation. That was direct orders from Ashcroft. He thought “competition” was great so intelligence was not allowed to be shared. The information on the MN flight training actions was NOT passed up the line to appropriate people – and the idiocy of Ashcroft and the Bush people in general let 9/11 happen. It would have been a very different world under Gore.

  • KQµårk 死神 : You got to remember though Kes that the deregulation already happened under Clinton. I don’t think Gore would have changed that and increasing home ownership was a Dem and GOP initiative.

  • SallyT : AdLib, I owe you another coke. I think we are up to a sixer.

  • KillgoreTrout : KQ, it is quite something that the RWers are going to so much trouble trying to make this whole Benghazi thing into another 9/11 01 thing. They are all riled up about 4 people being killed but completely ignore the fact that we lost nearly 3,00 during the bush administration. Just further proof that they are in total denial of reality.

  • SallyT : KQ, Clinton admin had given the warnings to Bush’s but they didn’t take them serious. I think that would have been different, too.

  • AdLib : KQ – Gore might have prevented 9/11 though, he would have heeded the CIA saying Al Qaeda was the #1 threat. And even if 9/11 did happen, we would never have gone to war in Iraq and we would probably have caught Bin Laden in Afghanistan and gotten out of there far quicker because we would have been solely focused on them with the Taliban on the run.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Oh I agree Kes I think it had allot less chance of happening under Gore.

  • KQµårk 死神 : AdLib if Libertarians and the GOP base could resolve their national defense differences it’s just natural they would Libertarian. Because Libertarians have no problem being hypocrites on female reproductive rights.

  • kesmarn : Gore might have taken that 9/11 memo seriously, KQ.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – what shocks me about McCain and the extremists is that they learned NOTHING from the election. They are doubling down. If we failed it must mean we need to do MORE! We outspent Obama, but we must not have done ENOUGH! So they’re back to their old tricks and more so. And people have HAD it with them.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KQ…I believe that Gore as CLinton’s past VP would have been a lot more sensitive to Al Qaeda and a lot less focused on Iraq…9/11 could have been prevented…easi ly.

  • kesmarn : KQ, I can see his point, however, I doubt that Gore would have had the lax oversight of Wall Street that Bush did. I don’t think AIG would have been able to pull off the fraud that they did, and the ratings agencies would have been better supervised.

  • SallyT : KQ, well Krugman usually knows what he talks but I don’t know about that exactly. I don’t think we would have been in two wars.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Really if you think about it for Gore to be successful he would have had to prevent 911. Otherwise the country would have blamed that on Dems too.

  • Sabreen60 : Hey Sally et al. I’m ok, just amazed at the extent of McCain’s hatred for PBO. He really made himself look like a fool. Other than reading about the conspiracy theories on the right, it’s been a pretty good week.

  • AdLib : KQ – Yes, that could be the vehicle for the Baggers to temporarily leave the GOP, a Libertarian Party situation. Probably not the existing one but maybe a literal, Tea Party that is all about Libertarianism and Ayn Rand lunacy. They’ve proven that they don’t care about the ramifications of their actions so even if the GOP Elite tell them they will be aiding in the defeat of the GOP, they wouldn’t care because they will see the GOP as a party run by traitors. Don’t know if this would happen but it’s a plausible scenario for me. Then again, the Baggers could just become so discouraged after one more cycle of losses that they just throw in the towel and give up on the whole thing.

  • choicelady : KT – the ones with the real power are invisible. Their plots and plans are quite hidden so their extremism is quite hidden. THAT is what makes them dangerous.

  • KQµårk 死神 : As painful as Bush was Krugman brought up a good point had Gore won in 2000. Because both parties, especially the way Gore ran, were going deregulation and pro home ownership the 2008 financial collapse would probably have happened under Gore. So we could see Dems blamed for that as much as the GOP if not more. Remember the second big bubble happened under Bubba.

  • SallyT : KT, the world is achangin!

  • KillgoreTrout : I guess CL, that I see them as extremists to the max, and I think most people in America and the world are getting tired of extremism. Just a theory of mine. I have to trust in the sanity of the human race.

  • kesmarn : c’lady…greaaa at…Libertarian AND Dominionist…. :-(

  • SallyT : Why, there is Sabreen! Glad you made it! How’s things?

  • choicelady : Hi Sabreen!

  • choicelady : Murph – thank you. I will go look!

  • kesmarn : Hey Sabreen!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi Sabreen

  • AdLib : Hey Sabreen!

  • SallyT : KQ, it could have been sooner if Bush hadn’t cheated in FL against Gore.

  • choicelady : kes – Ron and Rand Paul are both Libertarian AND Dominionist. Nifty combo.

  • KillgoreTrout : The Libertarians are going to need one of the two parties that dominate our politics. Without the GOP’s help, they are finished. They really advocate a time in America that is long gone.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi folks.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes, Choice ALL…I posted the Maddow comment at Time Out.

  • choicelady : KT – yes. They are, howver, the people who brought all the Nazis into the US after WW II. Not von Braun – REAL Nazis. They revere Hitler and even Pol Pot. They are power crazed and demented about what America should be. They believe in nothing BUT use Christian allegiance as their test for adherance. They want to rid the world of liberals and anyone who won’t bow to THEM. You can be anything you want – just so you defer to their power. They have supported the MOST extremist dictators in the world including non-christians. It’s all about power. Theirs.

  • SallyT : As dangerous as that sounds, Kes, I think he might be.

  • KQµårk 死神 : We have to remember that we once had a chance for a Dem super majority before but then LBJ got us in the Vietnam War. Otherwise we could be looking at 40 more years of liberal politics instead of the Reagan revolution. The be thing future Dems need is to learn and copy Obama’s playbook. It’s the best Dem turnout machine in history.

  • kesmarn : I suppose Rand Paul would be their man, then,.

  • kesmarn : KQ, I am hearing more Libertarian noise as well. “A pox on both your parties.”

  • SallyT : KQ, I see them going Libertarian, too.

  • kesmarn : Thank you, Murph!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes, Choice et. al. I will post the Maddow commentary at Time Out after we are done here.

  • choicelady : kes – the founder of Jews on First is Dov Chaim Beliak, an amazing, wonderful man and good colleague.

  • KQµårk 死神 : AdLib I think what’s going on now will just go on a bit further with the GOP. Their brand is caustic so GOP numbers will drop and they will all hide out as right leaning independents. I don’t think that’s a terrible thing because that’s one way the right was fooled by the polls. They thought because Romney was winning independents in key states that he was winning when really it was just the hidden GOP. The other thing that could happen especially if the GOP gives away allot of revenue on this budget deal is that the base will go Libertarian.

  • KillgoreTrout : They are crazy, just in their ideology. They have some pretty far out ideals and plans.

  • kesmarn : “If we don’t speak up, they’ll think we don’t mind.” That’s great!

  • AdLib : KQ – Excellent point, I’m right with you on that. Voters will remember who brought them universal health care once it’s working and helping so many, Obama and the Dems. And if the economy recovers as it is, they will also remember who rescued the nation from Republican and Wall Street’s destruction, Obama and the Dems. And they might be reminded who brought the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan and killed Bin Laden, Obama and the Dems. All Repubs will be able to run on is finally giving in to Obama’s leadership after years of blocking it. 2016 should be very favorable for Dems.

  • choicelady : Murph – I did NOT hear Rachel on that riff about what WON’T happen! Lovely!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice living in Mo where religion is so public a lot of this stuff is so very obvious because it is assumed that it is the rightful order of things.

  • choicelady : KT – they aren’t insane. They are powerful. Same people in the founding c. 1936 who were part of the coup against FDR. They have supported and funded rogue CIA efforts including Allende’s overthrow, the debacles in all Latin American nations, and much,much more.

  • kesmarn : Yes, you never know which side of anything they’re going to come down on,but this time I think it was a good wake up call.

  • choicelady : kes – that may be the first GOOD thing Anonymous has done because they have often been on the BAD guys’ side.

  • kesmarn : I missed that, Murph. I heard good things about the day-after Maddow show,though.

  • choicelady : Murph – thanks, but both Sue and I owe it to others who’ve done the groundwork. If anyone really wants the skinny, it’s Jeff Sharlet’s tome,”The Family”. It is a hard slog – and well worth it. In one chapter, “Through the Glass, Darkly” I knew personally EVERY ONE of the people in the meeting he described. I’ve tangled with them, know them by sight, and will never let them move an inch closer to power than they are now. And they CAN be defeated. But it takes real effort to shine the light on them. My FAVE group fighting them is Jewish. They have a web site, “Jews on First” (yes, just like the joke) and the sloganL “If we don’t speak up, they’ll think we don’t mind.” They are doing GREAT things fighting the christian Zionists.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Did You All see the Rachel Maddow commentary the day after the election? It was ALL about what was not going to happen because we elected Obama and not Romney. Brilliant. I have the text.

  • kesmarn : That sounds like an accurate time-frame, AdLib. About 4 more years and they are on life-support.

  • SallyT : Maher said that when we tell other countries that we have the best fucking military in the world, we mean we have the best fucking military in the world!

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t know CL. You know more about them than I do. I just doubt there are enough insane people to make them really effective.

  • AdLib : Kes – My guess is that the Baggers, and by them I mean the real RWs in the GOP which constitute the majority and aren’t going anywhere yet, will stay with the GOP at least one more Presidential cycle, to get the candidate they want. If they don’t, I could imagine them cleaving from the GOP for at least a Presidential cycle. If they get their candidate but are thrashed by Dems, as the would be, then I think their power and hold on the GOP evaporates.

  • KQµårk 死神 : The biggest thing that is going to happen bad to the GOP is beyond their control now AdLib. Obama and the Dems have the breathing room for the ACA to kick in and be successful. Of course every general election from this one on will be the most important but it should get easier for Dems.

  • kesmarn : c’lady they may have at least partially met their match in Anonymous — who hacked Israel’s computers today.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL-I believe you and Sue in these matters.

  • SallyT : Kes, I am sure there will be a lot less after 2014! They are kicking off everyday, one way or another.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I think Huck will be better off sticking to his fantasy FOX program. Let him play that bass instead of flapping his gums.

  • choicelady : KT – they DO have that kind of power. They wanted to top it off with the US presidency, but yes – they HAVE that much power. They are behind any mannder of disruption in Central and South America, in Asia – they have exercised such incredible control over our foreign policy and ALL sub rosa. They are NOT people you really ever hear about. It’s not Pat Robertson et al – they’re second tier. It’s, among others, Petraeus (so I’m glad he’s out), other generals, Senators, Congressmen, and private citizens you never heard of. They have huge money and tentacles in every nation. They are hideously scary.

  • AdLib : Sally – Oh yeah, both sides will start gearing up for 2014 but remember that the Baggers have a lot of influence over who wins in their primaries. So the best laid plans of rats and creeps often go astray, towards witches and rape supporters.

  • kesmarn : AdLib, I’m wondering how many more 4 year election cycles the Baggers will be around. A lot of them are pretty long in the tooth already. I do like your scenario, however!

  • AdLib : KT – Yes, Huckster was pwned by Stewart…and if he runs in 2016, he’ll be hammered much harder than that.

  • SallyT : AdLib, I guess we will get a sense since they have to be gearing up for 2014 right now.

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t think the Dominionists will ever be able to start Megido, or whatever the hell they call it. They just don’t have that kind of power. Should we keep an eye on them? Hell yes, they are crazy!

  • choicelady : KQ – anyone in the GOP is in with the Dominionist game plan. We no longer have anyone who is not under their thumb.

  • AdLib : Night Sue! Sleep well!

  • KQµårk 死神 : CL the timing after the US elections makes me very suspicious something else is at work here as well.

  • SallyT : KT, he sure did!

  • AdLib : Here’s a scenario I see coming down the line. The Baggers revolt against the GOP Elite for forcing Romney on them and compromising with Dems on the Fiscal CLiff and tax increases on the wealthy. They take over and primary out some of the current Repubs in Congress. They of course lose seats in Congress and the Presidency in 2016…which creates a counter revolt by the GOP ELite who take the country back and openly tell them to follow or shut up so they can win elections. The Baggers get pissed off and start their own doomed party, which in the short term, carves out Repub votes and helps Dems win even more. Next cycle, the Baggers are over, trickle back into the GOP and concede to the moderates…but multiple election cycles have passed and the Dems have a strong position in government while the Repubs have built a rep of being nutjobs, extremists and not being able to get their act together.

  • choicelady : Hey Sue – lovely having you here! Talk with you soon and keeping the end of Jan open!

  • KillgoreTrout : I loved the Jon Stewart interview with Huckleberry. He got owned.

  • choicelady : KT – the losses chalked up by the Dominionists now turn this discussion very serious. They cannot tolerate MORE loss because The End Times window for Jesus’ return is closing. For those who actually BELIEVE any of this. What you’re seeing in Israel is not about Hamas I fear but about Christian Zionist opportunism. If they cannot get what they want via a new prez, then… NEVER underestimate the tentacles of this group in EVERYTHING. They will push to get WW III and nukes – and yes, if Romney had won, this would be infinitely WORSE. But I suspect the Israelis are being pushed by the Christian Zionists. We have NOT seen the last of this.

  • SallyT : Huckster thinks he is big with Latinos.

  • kesmarn : A bit OT, but just got an email that the hacker group Anonymous, have hacked Israeli computers and put pro-Palestine messages up. «link»

  • KQµårk 死神 : The Huckster is another one that will be out there. I think he was smart for not running in 2012. He knew Romney was the heir apparent.

  • KillgoreTrout : Have a great night Sue. I just think the GOP, if they have any sense, will see the Dominionists as a real albatross.

  • SallyT : Good night Sue. I can’t wait to have some heroes!

  • kesmarn : Can’t wait for the next installment, Sue! Sleep well!

  • KillgoreTrout : Yeah, Huck’s is starting to balloon up nicely now.

  • SueInCa : Well I have to sign off peoples. I need to go read some more about Women heroes so I can write my Monday post. Have a good one all. Don’t be so sure KT they are sneaky basitds

  • kesmarn : Huckabees really big at the moment, though.

  • AdLib : KQ – Excellent point! And I bet we will see Christie lose weight dramatically, like Huckabee did.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think the Dominionists are finished, at least in the political realm.

  • SallyT : KQ, you mean if we see Christie actually out running in the next couple of years.

  • KQµårk 死神 : One thing is true though AdLib. If you see Christie trying to lose weight in the next few year it means he’s running.

  • choicelady : Sue – oh I know he’s in big leagues with Dominionists. He just lost his ability to pretend he’s mainstream.

  • SueInCa : CL I will send you some stuff on Rodriguez.

  • KillgoreTrout : The GOP is in an impossible situation until they recognize that clinging to old ideas in a changing world just doesn’t work. It’s political suicide.

  • AdLib : KQ – Yes, Faux News has crashed and burned big time because they turned their deception on their own party and there is now resentment. They are so exposed as the frauds and liars that they are, only the hardest core give them any weight anymore. And the Kochs and Adelson and the RW billionaires have got to be furious! How funny!

  • SueInCa : Not with the dominionists its not CL. He is right in there with Matt Stavers.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Remember who we are talking about in the GOP base both with baggers and establishment. A bunch of fat middle aged white guys.

  • choicelady : Sue – that name doesn’t ring a bell. Can’t recall who dumped Rodriguea, but his moment in the sun is gone.

  • SueInCa : CL there is wind of a federal prosecution on Bain and Mitt, it was written up on Politicus today

  • kesmarn : Right AdLib. You notice nobody names a kid “Adolph” to this day.

  • KillgoreTrout : I’ve never seen anybody back peddle like FOX did after the election.

  • AdLib : I don’t think another Bush could be elected in the next couple of decades…any more than another Hoover.

  • choicelady : Everyone – I think Romney’s total surprise over the fail was because he told his staff (though in ethnic terms very different) the line from the Wiz: Don’t Nobody Bring Me No Bad News! NONE of the people looking at Rove’s numbers and the real findings could deal with the impending disaster so they ignored it and kepy lying.

  • KQµårk 死神 : One of the big losers so far in the GOP civil war is Faux News. They were so behind the delusion that Romney could not only wing but was AHEAD will haunt them for a while. RS and others are attacking the who corrupt cycle that has formed in the GOP with high paid consultants that just tell people what they want to hear.

  • kesmarn : She’s wicked cunning. Wanted to distance herself from the Rove stench, Sally.

  • KillgoreTrout : I like Robin William’s joke about Jeb. He said it’e pretty bad that when the smartest one in the family is named Jeb!

  • SueInCa : I think she was trying to save face Sally

  • SallyT : Kes and Sue, I guess I did hear that but I thought she was just making conversation not trying to score.

  • choicelady : Sue – my husband followed Rove’s numbers. They were accurate. HE just stopped following his OWN numbers because they were so bad.

  • AdLib : KQ – Christie is too much a shoot-from-the-h ip guy, he’s got a big mouth that makes Biden look like a librarian. And, as superficial as this is, I just don’t think people will want to vote for an obese President.

  • SueInCa : CL I think it was Metzger? I know Obama needs to ditch him. That is like having Tokyo Rose in the wh

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KQ…I agree with your assessment of Jeb….he bears THE NAME THAT MUST NOT BE SPOKEN….it is the curse of the generation.

  • kesmarn : Yes, Sally. Megyn is the one who said to Rove: “Are those numbers real or is that just Republican math you make up so you can feel better?”

  • SueInCa : Sally she asked ‘rove if his numbers were real or just made up to fool himself

  • choicelady : Sue – someone prominent, I forget who, just ditched Rodriguez. Someone on OUR side who thought rodriguez was cool and then learned the truth. I cannot recall who.

  • AdLib : CL – Absolutely,McCai n and Graham are sunk now! And poor Fox News, they do try to create scandals but they just don’t have the magic anymore.

  • SallyT : Didn’t see that, Kes, but I don’t watch her. She is there for all those old red necked men anyway.

  • KillgoreTrout : I enjoyed seeing Ted Nugent’s head explode.

  • KQµårk 死神 : AdLib establishment Repugs that are trying to forward Jeb Bush are just delusional. I mean a Bush III. Does that show any change? I think Christie will run and be strong. The teabaggers will make the same mistakes they always do by letting out the crazy too much.

  • choicelady : AdLib. I agree about Ted Nugent. He promised us one or the other if Obama won.

  • kesmarn : True, Sally. Except the double-crossing Megyn Kelly who had the wolf instinct to go for Rove’s jugular.

  • SueInCa : They are referring to Samuel Rodriguez as the hispanic Rove of the right

  • choicelady : AdLib – McCain yesterday committed suicide in front of God and everybody. NOT going to the hearing to bitch about wanting a heartin and it was HIS committee????? Death by a thousand cuts…

  • KillgoreTrout : Romney is now personna non grata, just like George Bush. Notice how the GOP never mentioned bush during the entire campaign? He wasn’t even invited to the RNC. I think that speaks volumes about the GOP.

  • AdLib : I know, Donald Trump will be the GOP star to back their candidate!

  • SallyT : Kes, just about everyone on FOX is diseased now.

  • choicelady : AdLib ! How can you forget those passionate GOP supporters Chuck Norris and Lindsey Lohan! You don’t think these two will put the GOP across the finish line in 2016????

  • AdLib : And Ted Nugent should be dead or in jail by then.

  • kesmarn : Meatloaf and Kid Rock. That’s about it. Oh and Rove is radioactive, too.

  • SueInCa : Yes CL I read Patty’s book and it was not flattering

  • SueInCa : A drunken Meatloaf Adlib

  • choicelady : Sue – wasn’t everything in the world about Nancy Reagan? And I mean EVERYTHING??? She got it from her father a neurosurgeon in Oak Park, IL. He had a spectacular rep although it included the fact that if you had no money, you just died. He’d never do charity cases, no matter what. So you can see where the compassionless conservative came from.

  • AdLib : Romney is radioactive now. After the CIA has explained everything and McCain humiliating himself by not attending the briefing on Benghazi to complain about the lack of briefings, McCain is now radioactive. Bush is radioactive. In 2016, the Dem nominee will have the sitting President Obama campaigning for them, Bill Clinton possibly doing the same…and who will the Repub have of stature standing behind them? Meatloaf?

  • KillgoreTrout : Them boots were made for walkin! Romney’s new alternative.

  • SueInCa : has anyone ever read Russ Baker’s book about the Bushes? It was a stellar read, very telling

  • kesmarn : Maybe a “Reagan” face means a lot of botox.

  • kesmarn : I’m sure she did.

  • SueInCa : OM word I bet ego Nancy thought it was about her

  • kesmarn : AdLib — that was quite a stretch!

  • KillgoreTrout : Yeah, “Nancy With The Laughing Face,” was about his daughter.

  • KQµårk 死神 : I know what you mean CL.

  • SueInCa : Who the heck knows Kes but I read that somewhere and I think it was Kitty Kelly’s book about the Bush family or maybe Russ Baker’s

  • AdLib : Kes – There was a song called, “Nancy with the laughing face”, an adaptation of that.

  • choicelady : Sue – I remember the Sinatra stories! LOL!!! Eeeuuuuwww!!!

  • choicelady : Murph – again, as with the Lysistrata Ladies, your friend has room to say that because you GIVE him that room. What a difference you have made!

  • kesmarn : :lol: Sue! You naughty girl. Remember when Sinatra sang: “Nancy With the Reagan Face”? What did that even mean?

  • AdLib : CL – That photo of McCain appears to be real. Don’t know what caused it but whever took that photo has incredible timing!

  • choicelady : Sue – I know Nancy ran the gov’t at least in the second term, and she’s as dim a bulb as they get. Scary as hell.

  • SallyT : The Twinkies original had banana filling.

  • SueInCa : Kes as Sinatra was leaving out the back door

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL My losing friend seems to be embracing the loss as necessary and good.

  • choicelady : KQ – women age MORE in American society. A wrinkle on a guy is “character”. On a woman – it’s head for the Botox!

  • KillgoreTrout : What about Hostess cupcakes? They would be better without the super sweet cream filling.

  • kesmarn : Right, Sue. Mummy gave Ronnie Raygun his 3×5 index cards every morning.

  • SueInCa : but teapers are not known for their intelligent picks

  • AdLib : Murph – Very cool! Just what I was hoping, Romney proved he was lying and people like your GOP friend now sees that. So next time when the GOP candidate lies, they have a good reason to listen to you and doubt them. Nice!

  • choicelady : Sue – McCarthy is Dan Quayle in disguise.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I’m with Sue – that photo of McCain is incredible. Is it REAL or shopped?

  • SueInCa : But that was the alzheimers Kes, Nancy ran the white house – yes mother

  • choicelady : Murph – I’ve heard of “buyer’s remorse” but never LOSER’s remorse! Wow – that’s amazing.

  • SallyT : CL, Hostess began in KC, MO. I went on field trips with my class a couple of times. The originals were with fruit. All that changed because of WWII and product shortage.

  • kesmarn : I hope that’s true about women, KQ! And yes,Sue,you’re right about Reagan. He was dozing thru his second term, though.

  • AdLib : Kes – Thanks, I laughed at that McCain photo too!

  • KillgoreTrout : KQ, Sherrod Brown is definitely on the side of the people. He’s the real deal.

  • KQµårk 死神 : I think Hillary would be 69 which is younger than Reagan and woman just don’t age as fast either.

  • SueInCa : CL can you imagine McCarthy? He is a darling of the teapers

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…back to your comment re. Romney’s phone conversation with whoever that is being leaked one sound bite at a time….I THOUGHT I WAS HAPPY WHEN HE LOST LAST WEEK…THIS WEEK I AM DOING CARTWHEELS….on e of my local GOP friends who I could never get to reconsider his auto voting for the GOP ticket told me today that “it was probably a good thing that Obama won.” OMG

  • choicelady : Sally – when were Hostess products made with FRUIT? I remember them from childhood and they had cream filling then, and I’m OLD!

  • AdLib : CL – I think Warren is fantastic, I just don’t think her running in 2016 is likely but I would support her campaign as strongly as Obama’s.

  • kesmarn : I notice no one is talking about running McCain in 2016… :lol: AdLib the photo on your article is too hilarious!

  • KillgoreTrout : For sure Ad. Got to have healthy ingredients.

  • choicelady : AdLib – my husband thinks Warren 2016. LOTS of people on that page.

  • AdLib : And if Repubs are controlled by Baggers in the primaries, as I think is unavoidable, how do they end up with another moderate feigning RW after Romney. Seems to me that in 2016, a true Bagger has a better-than ever chance to the the nom and lose big time.

  • choicelady : Sue – I agree, and I definitely DO agree Hillary is too old and is too shopworn. She has no ideas we’ve not heard forever. Sometimes you do NOT get what you want!

  • SallyT : The products were in serious trouble because of changes in consumer demand and that was a contributor to the original bankruptcy. Believe it or not, the original Hostess was made with fruit, not the crap that are in them today.

  • SueInCa : Kes wan’t Reagan 70 when he was president?

  • KillgoreTrout : It’s not surprising that a corporate raider would consider doing the right as gift giving/bribes.

  • SueInCa : There actually are some really good folks out there on the Dem side, the primaries should be exciting

  • choicelady : Murph – perfectly OK. I think the very idea these idiots will live to fight another day and that we’re discussing it a little over a week after the election IS pretty nauseating!

  • AdLib : But Warren would make a remarkable President IMO.

  • kesmarn : YES! Sherrod!!

  • kesmarn : KQ I think Hillary really doesn’t want it, and she’ll be too old.

  • AdLib : Warren isn’t going to run for President in 2016, not with Hillary out there.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Sherrod Brown would be one of my favorites.

  • SallyT : Just because the filing was made public doesn’t mean it wasn’t known before.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I am experience a wave of nausea related to any discussion of the 2016 race…pardon me while I retch.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, I’d say they have a long row to hoe on that front.

  • kesmarn : Sue, I love Strickland, but I think he’s 71 or 72 now…by 2016…I dunno.

  • SallyT : Creditors will take pennies on the dollar but they want it now. It cost money to maintain attorney to monitor the case for them.

  • KQµårk 死神 : I just don’t think Warren likes politics that much. I think it will be Hillary and Christie.

  • choicelady : Sally – who is bidding? They just went down here today. I think the various plants are severable.

  • AdLib : Killgore – Banana cake Twinkie?! With healthy ingredients, that sounds like a winner.

  • SueInCa : Paul Ryan Pubs and O’Malley/Strick land for Dems?

  • choicelady : kes – sure thing. I’ve already suggested this to them, and the more voices the better!

  • KQµårk 死神 : Good one Murph.

  • SallyT : CL, those assets have already been put out to bid and they have offers.

  • KillgoreTrout : Banana cake would be wonderful!

  • kesmarn : Elizabeth Warren,Dems? Paul Ryan,Repubs?

  • KQµårk 死神 : Yup just like projecting his lies on Obama.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KQ- which Repug party….

  • choicelady : Sally – one of the benefits of bankruptcy though is that the courts welcome sales of assets, and this is where the employees can move in for cents on the dollar. I’ve seen companies do it – no reason per se the union can’t.

  • AdLib : KQ – Romney saw politics as “Votes for gifts” so of course, he projects that on Obama but in a sour grapes way.

  • KQµårk 死神 : So who is the front runner for Repugs and for Dems in 2016?

  • kesmarn : I wish I could do something to help on that one, c’lady. Email ’em?

  • SueInCa : KT because the sane GOP are trying desperately to figure out how to get Latinos in 2 or 4 years

  • choicelady : Murph, awwww.

  • choicelady : kes – deeply hoping the Ohio Center for Employee Ownership is moving in on the Hostess issue along with the USW-Mondragon coop folks.

  • SueInCa : LOL I was skeptical but I am not always right/ no that should be correct

  • AdLib : Folks, can you imagine if Dominionist Romney was President while Israel was being bombed???

  • KillgoreTrout : Romney is finished in politics. Hey dug his own grave and the GOP realizes they helped him. His comment about Obama “giving gifts,” to Latinos and women and African Americas didn’t go over so well with the GOP.

  • KQµårk 死神 : AdLib I mean what is an across the board 20% tax cut? Romney was never ever going to pay for those cuts. Romney was just mad he was called on his gifts.

  • SallyT : CL, I wish you luck with an employee take over but I am afraid you are too late. I hate to tell you how many corporate bankruptcy I have been involved with in my past career. I have been recognized as an expert witness in Federal Bankruptcy Court on the value of accounts receivables.

  • choicelady : AdLib – and a gluten free version of a Twinkie in addition to the carrot cake ones.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice that would be, how shall I say it, “choice”.

  • AdLib : Sue – I would never believe Romney’s description of a phone call with Clinton, I wouldn’t believe his description of a marshmallow.

  • choicelady : Murph – well lets’ say I started this conversation this afternoon with our Sac Labor council AND the union president AND Trumka. JUST opened the door, so….

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- I will amend my description.

  • kesmarn : Yes, Sue and AdLib, a scary day for the Hostess employees, but looks as though there may be some hope for them yet. And HEY to Sally, KT, and all!

  • KQµårk 死神 : AdLib we literally dodged a bullet with Romney. He would have made us miss Bush. Well maybe not.

  • choicelady : HEY Sally! Is it raining there?

  • SueInCa : Adlib he told those supporters he had a long call with Clinton and Clinton was very supportive? I will find the link and post it to OT

  • AdLib : Carrot cake Twinkies?

  • choicelady : kes – still at the talking about it stage. I will keep everyone posted.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey kes!

  • choicelady : Sue – no one said they had to go totally healthy! Friend Twinkies are AMURICAN! Just might EXPAND the line to less awful stuff.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- is there really conversation about employee ownership of Hostess….the bosses broke every agreement with labor in the first bankruptcy…ave rage executive raise in the last 10 years, 20 percent A YEAR…they knew what was coming and what they were doing.

  • AdLib : Hey Kes! We’re hoping the courts may let the employees take over Hostess, they had millions robbed from their pensions, that’s a big down payment.

  • SallyT : Hello all!

  • KillgoreTrout : That sounds about right Murph. Plus the sociopathic lack of empathy and a conviction of always being correct.

  • choicelady : KT – the problem with the GOP leadership ever repudiating the religious right is that THEY are the religious right. There is no one left to speak sanity.

  • KQµårk 死神 : I’m actually a bit surprised how fast the GOP is talking revenue. They obviously know that they lost the tax argument.

  • kesmarn : Great,c’lady! I was hoping things would go that way!

  • AdLib : So how about Romney destroying his legacy by going back to his 47% mentality…and Repubs looking towards 2016 dumping on him?! Ain’t that fitting! And all those people who were fooled by him have got to recognize now what a fraud he is. I mentioned in a comment, Romney said today that he and his family still are acting like the campaign is still going on. Can you spell Mental Illness? They just can’t accept that their entitlement didn’t hand them the Presidency over the black man!

  • SueInCa : Kes I said oh noes what will the Iowa state fair do without fried twinkies?

  • choicelady : kes – great to see you, and we are working on taking over Hostess as an employee cooperative. Just started today.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think, after this last election and all the crazy campaigning the RR has done will cause the GOP to reconsider their strategy of trying to appeal to the lonney tunes fundamentalists.

  • choicelady : Oh Sue – PERFECT!

  • kesmarn : Greetings, dear friends,from the town where one of the local Twinkie factories just went over the fiscal cliff today. :-(

  • SueInCa : CL I will be in the area Jan 31, hold lunch open for me and the daughter

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT GOPILIA? DSM V- narcissistic fascination with delusional ideologies leading to irrational self destructive behavior followed by declarations of triumph.

  • SueInCa : I agree Murph but that sleazeball will hunt down something else. And damned Maher keeps having him on the show, I don’t watch anymore bcause of that

  • choicelady : AdLib – I want to get one of those bumper stickers: “Doing my best to piss off the religious right.” I am doing a good job of it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Oh, I agree Murph. I’d bet there is a mental illness in the DSM V that would fit just about anybody in today’s GOP.

  • choicelady : Uh – that’s FUN to contemplate.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- have you noticed how quiet Issa has been…he has had his lunch handed to him on Solyndra, on Holder, and now on Benghazi….

  • SueInCa : He is a criminal Adlib

  • choicelady : Sue and AdLib – I remember reading somewhere recently that Issa has a boatload of legal issues facing him. Don’t remember WHERE I saw that, but it’s fund to contemplate.

  • AdLib : CL – Cool, you’re our secret weapon! Let’s get you in a room with Issa, I’m sure he wouldn’t be able to last long in there without being rude to you!

  • AdLib : Sue – We can hope, Issa is such a sleazy guy, I wouldn’t bet against it.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT-+- they really are crazy, and totally impractical…a wonderful combo.

  • AdLib : Murph – That’s what KQ was saying about the RW blogs too, that the Baggers are fuming already. Wait until a deal is reached, that will be setting a match to a bagger powderkeg!

  • KillgoreTrout : Wow, what an oxymoron. Dangerously moderate. ONly in today’s GOP. LOL!

  • KQµårk 死神 : AlLib I’m with you. With the baggers in charge the GOP will never ever win another general election again. Remember the GOP only won the PV ONE time since 1988 in a general election. Baggers will never take over the Senate either because in most state wide races there are too many reasonable people.

  • choicelady : Sue – one good thing to remember: every single RW legislator who was publicly rude to me has gone on to lose every following election. So if we can get McC and the other McC to be RUDE to me… : )

  • SueInCa : I know CL, no I did not leave….Adlib you never know Issa is gonna get caught big time one of these days

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…I can tell you from the Mo. point of view that the folks on the deep right are ready to bring down the heavens upon the heads of the traitorous GOP who are dangerously moderate. Love it.

  • choicelady : Sue – I have personal peeves against McCarthy. Long story I will tell you over a Cricket’s lunch one fine day. But he’s just plain evil.

  • AdLib : Sue – Wish we could get rid of Issa but he’s in a pretty solid red district. So…we just need to get those Repub seats elsewhere and put the Dems back in power in The House.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think, or rather hope that the GOP sees what an albatross the TP really is.

  • SueInCa : BRB freeze the comments :-)

  • choicelady : Sue – up in Ashland at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, I saw “All the Way” about LBJ signing the Civil Rights Bill. It was an amazing insight into that moment. He was a major SOB – and yet, and yet despite the fact it COULD have cost him the election in ’64, he was DRIVEN to do it. And at no point did anyone ever explain WHY. Same with Obama and GLBT issues. Could have killed him. Driven to do it.

  • AdLib : Personally, I’m rooting for the Baggers to launch a successful war on the GOP elite after they fold to Obama on the tax and fiscal cliff issues. If the Baggers end up strengthening their hold on the GOP, we could see the stage set for another long period of Dem leadership and a chance to get long term changes accomplished.

  • SueInCa : Kevin McCarthy is a bagger too CL. He has never held a real job in his life, always off the gov dole that Kevin

  • SueInCa : I know Adlib, I was delighted to hear it all then Lungren now they need to get rid of McClintock

  • choicelady : Sue – McC is my next target Actually Kevin McCarthy is – but these guys are VERY entrenched.

  • SueInCa : CL lot of people do not know that, I do because my father is from the south and he was for the civil rights bill, but he also informed us most of his kind were not

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, couldn’t agree more. Today’s GOP suffers a collective insanity. Maybe some sort of a death nell.

  • AdLib : Sue – I love the meme that came out after the CA supermajority, “Is this the future of the GOP?” Becoming a permanent minority party…that is the way it is here in Cali, thank goodness! And now, even more so!

  • choicelady : Sue – that is where Dixiecrats went, for sure.

  • choicelady : KT – oh man. The new GOP is so extreme it makes the postwar Commie hunters look sane.

  • SueInCa : I hear they are reeling adlib

  • AdLib : CL – Knocking out Lundgren and Bono in the same year, what a 1-2 punch to the GOP out here in CA!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- I ended up in a support role for Bera because Bourne supported him…I was amazed at how bad a candidate Lungren turned out to be.

  • SueInCa : Lungren was a delight for me to hear, no go after McClintock dist 4

  • KQµårk 死神 : Even worse CL people compared that time to the Great Depression when FDR had a super majority that only grew. Not because much got better but because people were patient.

  • choicelady : AdLib and Sue – yes, where states won’t set up Exchanges, the feds will provide coverage.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, today’s GOP is far more extremist than they were in the 60s.

  • SueInCa : CL those Dixie crats are the new rep party

  • choicelady : Sue – If we won this well in low info district such as Lungren’s and Bono’s we can win anything with this crop of bozos in the GOP.

  • choicelady : AdLib – 216 House + 60 Senate minimum or 276 votes. At MOST we had 100 for single payer.So some EmoProgs claimed LBJ pounded the bully pulpit and got Southern Dems to vote for the Civil Rights Act proving Obama is an asshole. Exept – only ONE Southern Dem voted for it: Hale Boggs. Even Al Gore SENIOR voted against. It was northern Dems and GOP who passed it. We don’t HAVE the GOP anymore.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I am with you on the realpolitik of the ACA…Obama did what could be done….the art of the possible…I think you have seen my analysis of the Dem 60 vote supermajority- 50 days in two years (thanks to vacant seats and sickness)…and that includes the six Blue Dogs and Lieberman.

  • SueInCa : You are right KQ I hope they learned their lesson

  • KQµårk 死神 : I remember the bashing back then and much of it was against the House as well. Either way you slice it, it was a spiteful Dem electorate with most of the complaining coming from progressives. We talk now about how spiteful Repugs are but back in 2010 it was Dems.

  • SueInCa : HOw great to get rid of them Adlib?

  • AdLib : Sue – Yes, that’s what I was saying. Fed law trumps state law so if the state passes a law saying it won’t set up its own exchange, the Feds can go right ahead and set it up in their state and run it.

  • KillgoreTrout : KQ, good point. It does depend on your status as to whether your injuries/illness is service connected or not. Service connected vets have no limit on means.

  • SueInCa : LOL I am not so sure CL some people are very low info voters. But I hope you are right

  • AdLib : CL – And what about the Senate? Even with all those Dems, you had Ben Nelson, Lieberman, etc. blocking any health care reform. We only had about 54 votes in the Senate for the ACA, less for single payer. We needed 60. IM-Possible.

  • choicelady : Sue – if the GOP stays the course it’s on now, 2014 will be a banner year for Dems!

  • SueInCa : Adlib I think if the Prez stays on the course he is on now, 2014 will be a banner year for Dems

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…the trick with the Health Exchanges is that the states cannot just say never mind. They have to create a system that matches the fed system if they have a change of mind and those in the fed system can remain in it (and I think that new enrollments remain a choice for several years).

  • choicelady : Murph – freaking brilliant,

  • KQµårk 死神 : KT true the only thing killing the VA is the means testing.

  • AdLib : KQ – That’s not really what happened. Dems were just discouraged in 2010 and stayed home. Even so, Dems had some surprising victories in some states including CA (and beating witches elsewhere). Yes, the mushy middle did sway a bit to the empty promises of Repubs in 2010 but that electorate, as the Repubs found out this month, is very different from Presidential year electorates.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- and knowing what I do about the Dems in Mo.state government….th ey are chuckling as it means they do not have to fight the GOP legislature to do the right thing. It is weird here….6 of the 7 top state offices are Dem and the 2 Houses in the State Legislature are solid GOP. The Dems could not have written better legislation themselves.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, that’s right. I forgot about medicare.

  • SueInCa : KT an Medicare

  • KillgoreTrout : In a way, we already have single payer. Of course, it’s only for veterans.

  • SueInCa : Could be Murph it is interesting to say the least. A ground offensive though would be a disaster for all involved

  • choicelady : Murph – that is hilarous! You ARE correct, the federal plan will outshine anything the current powers that be could create! And they think they WON!

  • KQµårk 死神 : The problem with the German model is not with business but with finance where they are still holding onto the masters of the universe bully model with the Euro.

  • AdLib : Murph – I would guess that when Repub states finally get tired of having given the Feds the right to operate exchanges in their state, they might repeal that law in MO and take control of the exchange. Either way, they have to abide by federal law.

  • SueInCa : Adlib I thought fed law always trumped state law? Do you know if that is true?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- the hits on Jerusalem are also a new thing….angerin g many Muslims and Christians-+– this really feels like Hamas going for broke.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I’ve been screaming – where were the 270 votes you needed to pass single payer? Did NOT have them. At most we had around 100, both houses.

  • AdLib : KT – Fed law trumps state law on this, the SCOTUS ruled that. OH can’t stop the feds from setting up exchanges in their state.

  • choicelady : KQ – German model is good.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL- yes they did. I told everyone I knew to vote for the referendum….th ey did….and as you say helped the TP slit its own throat. People here will be far happier tapping into the federal system.

  • choicelady : KT – you always get college educated wombats who never worked a steelmill, foundry, anything who think they have all the answers. Never works.

  • SueInCa : It is all scary to me, they tried to hit Jerusalem today or yesterday too. That will drive the evangelicals into ecstasy for their rapture is near Murph when the temple is destroyed

  • KillgoreTrout : K-Sick is a rat. No doubt.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Yet how do progressives respond AdLib. We fire the most progressive body that gave us the public option and even comprehensive energy legislation.

  • choicelady : Murph – MO just gets more fascinating by the day! The TEA PARTY dictated where MO is going on health care??? Sorry! But the feds are available for everyone where no state plan exists, so the Baggers just slit their own throats.

  • KillgoreTrout : That’s good to know, Ad.

  • AdLib : CL – People greatly underestimate Obama, especially narrow minded Dems who howled against him for not making the ACA single payer…when that would never have passed the Senate…the ACA as it was barely passed!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- there are bomb shelters in many homes in Tel Aviv but they have not needed them….suddenly this is all very real to a lot of people who had lived in denial…my friend thinks that this may force a change in government (explaining why the current one is moving so quickly to invade the Gaza Strip)

  • KillgoreTrout : CL I guess it depends on who you get to make such decisions.

  • KQµårk 死神 : CL I like the German model but with more truly employee owned companies. They get together government, business and labor once a year to plan with every big corporation. That way all the interests of the country are heard and defended.

  • choicelady : KQ – any single payer program in the US could look like Medicare (Canada) or look like ACA (Switzerland, Germany, Japan).

  • choicelady : KT – they cannot stop people in OH from accessing the federal programs. It would be good for folks in OH compared to the rat’s nest Kasich would create!

  • AdLib : KT – If OH refuses to set up their own exchange, the Feds will set one up in their state without their control or participation. How funny!

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, nothing like a totally new perspective on life.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I see we are talking about the Health Insurance Exchanges. Jay Nixon, our Dem gov., informed the Fed that Mo would not be running our own either but his reason is unique. A referendum forbids the state from doing this without having another referendum….TE A PARTY legislation.

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m not sure where Ohio is going with this. I don’t think they can override federal programs. I get my healthcare at the V.A. so it wouldn’t directly effect me, but I worry about others.

  • choicelady : KT – my problem with “democratic socialism” is that it still presumes outside “experts” will guide the way. I do NOT like that. Not to say a nation can’t have wages and incomes policy discussions, planning, but NO WAY do I trust bureaucrats to understand how production works, or what people do. Absentee decision makers are ALWAYS bad. Always.

  • KQµårk 死神 : You also have to be realistic for what an eventually single payer US system will look like. It will never look like a Canada or France, it will still have some employer component like Japan.

  • SueInCa : Most homes in Tel Aviv have bomb shelters inside. I think it is a requirement of the city.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hey Choice and KT…something about talking to someone in another world that changes the one in which I live.

  • choicelady : KT – if OH does not have an exchange, you WILL have access via the feds. And it will be better. Whom do you trust? Obama or Kasich? Your program will be more like the High Risk Pool that many people are using now.

  • SueInCa : Hey Murph hope she is ok. Does she have a bomb shelter in her home?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…she lives in Tel Aviv and has never experienced the rocket attacks….Tel Aviv has a culture that pretends it is not really involved with the Palestinian Mess….she says that the rockets (provided mostly by Libya in the Black Market and Iran just to make trouble) have changed the game.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Murph.

  • choicelady : Murph – hi and is your friend OK?

  • KillgoreTrout : Actually, democratic socialism would favor employee owned means of production. I like the idea.

  • choicelady : ADLib – I think the road to single payer was always his intention. This is NOT Hillary’s mishmash, and it’s NOT Romney care. This is entirely different. Two of the provisions are RIGHT OUT of Sheila Kuehl’s single payer bill – and they are the things distinguishing ACA from the MA and Scwarzenegger plans.

  • SueInCa : I don’t think they can turn it down can they KT?

  • KillgoreTrout : I saw today an article about Ohio and one other state saying they won’t alloe insurance exchanges. I hope that’s not true.

  • AdLib : Hey Murph! Hope your friend is staying safe.

  • AdLib : And keep in mind that all 50 states will have exchange programs that are similar to each other.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello one and all…..just finished a long chat with a friend in Israel…scary.

  • choicelady : KQ – I think you’re right.

  • choicelady : KT – nope, NOT socialism. Socialism is when the state owns the means of production, and I hate that as much as corporate capitalism. Another different set of absentee jerks telling working people what to do. Cooperative ownership is grounded in trusting the people who do the work to also make the best decisions for the company on a one person, one vote basis.

  • AdLib : KT – I think we are now on a path to single payer, thanks to Obama’s fighting so hard for the ACA. With exchanges in all states, it would seem a lot easier to bundle only 50 programs together instead of millions, to have a single payer plan. It will take time but I think we’re on that road.

  • choicelady : Here is the original March 2012 story about the USW Modragon alliance: «link»

  • KQµårk 死神 : :lol: on me

  • KillgoreTrout : I think it’s time for capitalism to go through some major changes.

  • AdLib : KQ – I like that, “Not for Prophet” HC!

  • KQµårk 死神 : Ironically CL I think states will eventually take Medicaid and the delay will actually take out some of the bumps implementing the ACA in hostile states.

  • AdLib : KQ – I think it will unfortunately be a painful but eventual path for FL and other states refusing the increases in Medicaid. Their states will become more and more weighed down by the uninsured poor that they will eventually be forced to come on board.

  • KillgoreTrout : Employee owned? Isn’t that socialism? LOL!

  • KQµårk 死神 : Yup medicaid recipients would likely fall in that not for prophet insurance exchange often where the the costs will be very low.

  • choicelady : KQ – I think they have been very realistic at the fed level about Medicaid expansion. Will have taken 4 years, thoughtful intervention.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I know. These secessionists aren’t factoring in their dem populations. Each state would have it’s very own civil war.

  • AdLib : CL – Exactly, employee owned means unprecedented flexibility in reversing losses and setting up a profitable game plan…for all!

  • choicelady : KQ – yup. The Medicaid story is different, but I betcha HHS has a plan.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Then again one of my worries was with the ACA was with Medicaid. I was worried the expansion may actually hurt access if it was too fast.

  • choicelady : KT – the “domestic” enemies will be their citizens when they figure out they’ve been royally screwed.

  • KillgoreTrout : She would be welcome anywhere.

  • AdLib : In the past I would’ve said let TX secede but with the Latino population growing there, possibly overtaking the rednecks in 15 or 20 years…imagine if TX went blue then! The Repubs would never be able to win the Presidency!

  • choicelady : KT – AB is welcome ANYWHERE along with the chirren.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Of course the flip side is states like FL will not expand Medicaid that would cut costs and help millions.

  • choicelady : AdLib – cuts come automatically. If the investors are also the employees, you STOP hemorrhaging capital out the top. It slows the pace, it makes things easy and even, and creditors will be paid up front. GOOD way for this to continue and everyone to relax a bit.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, me too. I wonder how they’re going to protect themselves from all enemies, foreign or domestic.

  • SueInCa : Well Adlib they are asking for liquidation but the BK judge is going to hear from the creditors and he or she is bound to find out the back story. I sincerely hope they can save it and move to emp coop

  • AdLib : KQ – I wholly agree, the Repub states are giving up some sovereignty to the Feds on the ACA exchanges. Hilarious, couldn’t turn out better, they throw their tantrum and their people get the feds assuring them of health care premiums they can afford.

  • choicelady : Sue – thanks, Girlfriend – I’m up to my eyebrows in coop stuff, so having you help with the ‘backstory’ is golden. MUCH appreciated!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, wouldn’t bother me in the least. Of course we’d have to get AB to defect!

  • KQµårk 死神 : CL the feds are already setting up a huge not for profit NGO kind of like what we have with flood insurance. So that’s just half a step to go.

  • SueInCa : You got it CL. I will look tomorrow

  • choicelady : KT – I’m for the entire former Confederacy seceding.

  • choicelady : KT – I am ALL FOR Texas seceding!

  • choicelady : Sue – ANY story on Hostess and its funding would be SO appreciated. I am not up on the hedge fund bozos or the siphoning off of capital. THANK YOU.

  • AdLib : Sue – It will be very interesting to see if creditors recognize the path of employee/union coop as the most sensible path that it is. Of course they will be willing to take cuts if they also co-own the business, which would help the business get back up swiftly. I mean, you really want the time and expense of training all new workers?

  • KQµårk 死神 : AdLib I think what’s gonna kill them the most is how little they get in return. I doubt their will be any big changes to entitlements at all that have not been made already.

  • choicelady : KQ – the GOP govs all begged for and got a one week extension! I think reality just hit them! I personally am all FOR the feds doing the provision – major foot in the door for single payer or a Swiss style version thereof.

  • KillgoreTrout : OK, who’s in favor of Texas seceding?

  • KQµårk 死神 : CL what do you think about most Republican governors letting the feds set up Obamacare in their states. Talk about cutting off their collective noses to spite their face. This just makes a conversion to a public option just that much easier.

  • KillgoreTrout : Whatever will Rush do without that sugar Rush?

  • AdLib : KQ – I think the GOP Civil War really launches once the agreement is made on taxes. The wealthy will pay higher taxes, end of story and the Baggers will go ballistic. They can afford to while the Repub politicians can’t afford to be the ones who raised taxes on everyone. Obama has them in a corner…and remember, Obama has always gotten a better deal from Repubs even when he was in a weak position so watch what the net result is on his “compromises” with Repubs.

  • SueInCa : CL send me an email of what you want, you know I am golden on providing that stuff

  • choicelady : Sue – the employees could definitely expand the product line.

  • choicelady : KT – doing OK.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey CL. Doing great. Hope the same with you.

  • choicelady : KT – the person in major withdrawal is Rush.

  • SueInCa : Adlib I have a feeling the creditors are going to force the situation especially after they found out about the 80% increases for management

  • KillgoreTrout : Doing great! Wondering how life will be without Twinkies!

  • choicelady : Hi KT – how are you?

  • choicelady : Anyone – if you who know me will send me Bain hedge fund type stories I’d be VERY grateful. No time to look.

  • SueInCa : CL they could make better products and more healthy too

  • choicelady : AdLib – I’m working on that very thing. Theft of employee resources leads to employee take over. I have the unions and Mondragon on my side – I’m righteous.

  • SueInCa : Hi KT

  • AdLib : Hey KT! All well here, what’s up with you?

  • AdLib : CL – Would be great if the amount the hedge funds stole from workers was considered in an employee coop takeover situation with Hostess.

  • SueInCa : KQ I missed all of that in the Hostess story and Samuel Rodriguez popping up his ugly head again

  • choicelady : Sue and CL – you write down the venture – we will buy it at your “market” price. And run it. Now I have to admit – they probably will need to change their product line. NO one other than Rush is eating Twinkies these days.

  • KillgoreTrout : What’s up Planet Peeps? That fiscal cliff is a mofo.

  • SueInCa : Good idea CL. Those employees got the shaft big time

  • AdLib : Sue – Hostess is owned by two dishonest Bain-type hedge funds. All they do is lie and steal, no surprise but how terrible for the 18k workers whose lives are being toyed with so cruelly.

  • KQµårk 死神 : The most fun I had today was watching the right wing web sites go ballistic over the GOP giving into Dems on revenue. They are about to go to war.

  • choicelady : Sue – I am in touch with the union pres and the head of Sac Labor Council to talk about an employee union cooperative take over. Fire sale price – might be the way to go.

  • AdLib : CL – Fantastic! Glad that Trent is bringing DISCLOSE Act back, you are in the midst of the action on good government which is terrific!

  • SueInCa : What about Hostess Brands shuttering? They lied as usual when reporting

  • choicelady : KQ – a food stamp cozy? An ugly knitted or crocheted cover for your FOOD STAMPS? Wow – pickin’ in high cotton,you are.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Stewart was hilarious per usual.

  • choicelady : AdLib – and with Trent going back for the DISCLOSE Act, and with CCI having done SO well with the push for Citizens United being overturned with a CA, I’m in VERY high profile for Good Gov’t crap.

  • AdLib : KQ – Now that’s what I call buying my vote! Thanks Obama!

  • SueInCa : Wow KQ you hit the jackpot with Obama

  • KQµårk 死神 : A big bag of weed, a party pack of contraceptives and food stamp cozy.

  • AdLib : Sue – Will check out that post after Vox!

  • AdLib : CL – Great, thanks for staying on top of it! After this election, it couldn’t be a better time for HOPE!

  • choicelady : Sue – missed your post on OT – will look when I can.

  • SueInCa : Read the link I posted. I am going to go back and try to find the law he referred to

  • KQµårk 死神 : Ya gotta love how Republicans are even spinning their own base. They won’t say taxes but now raising revenue is OK.

  • choicelady : KQ – what’d Jon Stewart get?

  • choicelady : Hey Sue – I agree – throw Mitch over!

  • AdLib : KQ – Repubs have scurried off the Fiscal CLiff after Norquist to their doom.

  • choicelady : KQ – that climb up the cliff IS strenuous isn’t it?

  • SueInCa : I posted a good post from LA Progressive on OT tonite

  • choicelady : AdLib – only fly in proverbial ointment – Susan who works for Darrell, is in Scotland with my chiropractor and his partner. I fell totally deserted on ALL fronts. So I will ask another staffer to handle it for me.

  • AdLib : Hey Sue! Indeed, the Repubs have already jumped off it yelling “Revenue increase…okay, tax increases!”

  • KQµårk 死神 : I want the package Jon Stewart got.

  • SueInCa : He promised me nothing but I still voted for him

  • AdLib : CL – Yes, been a bit crazed this week but thanks so much for following up! Want to make sure we get it to the Legislature under this Dem Supermajority!

  • choicelady : AdLib – he promised you a PHONE? He just freaking promised good government to ME. Pout.

  • KQµårk 死神 : Whew!!! I just climbed back up the fiscal cliff and boy am I tired.

  • SueInCa : Fiscal cliff let the rep’s go over

  • choicelady : AdLib, I’ve been rode hard, put away wet. Other than that, hunky dory. Did you get my note about Robert R.? Back Monday and I am up for nagging.

  • AdLib : BTW, I still haven’t gotten my Obama gift package! I voted for him and everything, where’s my free stuff and my phone?

  • AdLib : Hey CL! Howareya?

  • choicelady : Hi! AND Fiscal Cliff. Suspenders and a belt…

  • AdLib : Don’t forget to say “Fiscal Cliff Diving” or “Hi!” when you arrive.

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

Leave a Comment

Please Login to comment
  Subscribe  
Notify of