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AdLib On July - 20 - 2012
  • AdLib : Night, you have a nice weekend too!

  • SallyT : I guess it better be good night and have a nice weekend.

  • AdLib : Right, I understand.

  • SallyT : Oh, I got that from you saying why would a fair minded person think this. I made that from fair to low minded because of the low informed. I combined. You never said it. I did. I never said anyone called anyone dumb. I said it doesn’t mean they are dumb.

  • AdLib : A Low Info voter is not making any reference to the intelligence of someone, just that they aren’t as engaged and informed.

  • SallyT : Really, okay, I don’t know why and I don’t care to go back and look. I guess I went with that from low informed.

  • AdLib : BTW, you created the phrase, “low minded”, no one else used that to describe anyone.

  • SallyT : I happen to like the boat I am in but I don’t want to punch a whole in my friends boat just because they want to sit on the lake a little longer.

  • SallyT : That simply means that you were fighting with the person that was in the same boat with you and rowing in the same direction but arguing with me that the guy in the boat next to us was low minded because they hadn’t decided to row yet.

  • SallyT : That doesn’t me you are right and I am wrong or I am right and you are wrong.

  • SallyT : My problem is with you. You jumped on it and ran. That is the way you are and I happen to like you so I stuck it out with you.

  • SallyT : That doesn’t make them low minded. Frustrating, yes.

  • SallyT : Now they can be frustrating because they don’t see the President as fondly as I do and certainly you do.

  • SallyT : They are the type of person that looks at as much as possible before forming an opinion.

  • SallyT : Well, there you have it. The whole thing started with you assuming a lot of things that weren’t even discussed and you don’t know how they have answered.

  • AdLib : Sally, it’s not my intention to upset you, I was sharing my POV based on what you shared with us about this person. If it’s off base because I don’t know enough about this person, then it is.

  • SallyT : This is a good friend of mine.

  • SallyT : AdLib, this is upsetting me. You are assuming a lot about someone you don’t know.

  • AdLib : Night Sally!

  • AdLib : With all respect, I think we just have to agree to disagree in this rare case. I do think that someone who is so narrowly looking at Romney, only as to whether he legally used the tax system to avoid paying his fair share of taxes instead of informing himself/herself about all of the destructive things he did to gain that wealth and the way he has used that wealth against the interests of Americans, is under-informed. I recognize you see it differently, just our divergent POVs on this one.

  • SallyT : It doesn’t really matter. Good night.

  • SallyT : Yes, we are sure it won’t get changed under Romney.

  • SallyT : They know that the tax code favors the rich, as we all know. Will it get changed by not voting for Romney, they are not so sure about that.

  • SallyT : Okay, I said that. The point my friend was making was that if you are opposed to Romney because he is rich don’t vote for him but on his taxes most of this would be expected. That doesn’t say they are in agreement.

  • AdLib : You said this below: “If you are against him because he is rich, yes, but most of this is expected.”

  • SallyT : All I said was that they are not low informed! You took off that they are because of this and that. I never said that they were in agreement or disagreement. All that was said was that they have an idea how his taxes would look because he is rich. I never said that they thought that was fair. You jumped on all this on your own. You started arguing with me on things I already knew. I just thought you should know that my friend is not a low informed voter just because they still have questions that they don’t feel they have the answers too yet.

  • SallyT : AdLib, I never said any such thing!

  • AdLib : You keep making the argument that people oppose Romney because he is wealthy. That is not what anyone here has said, it has been about how he got wealthy and what he has done with that wealth. Has he supported or undermined America and American jobs with it? That is the qualitative question that the person you’re mentioning seems not to be considering and I do see that as not seeing the whole picture.

  • AdLib : Sally – You presented the POV of someone that was perceived in a different way by others here than you perceive it. That’s the nature of POVs, sometimes more will agree with you, sometimes not. In this case, I didn’t see this person’s position as well informed and in the middle, as you do. It’s just my POV though.

  • SallyT : They aren’t sold on Romney. They just don’t think the a rich person taxes is reason alone. Now with more facts, they would see the other reasons. They already know the tax system is wrong and they are for the tax increase. This person likes to see more before saying.

  • SallyT : No, I’m not. I feel like this was blown out because I just mentioned that I had a friend that hadn’t made up their mind and thought that seeing the tax returns was just going to show how the rich keep from paying taxes. My friend already knows that.

  • AdLib : Oh?

  • SallyT : But, I’m not cool, AdLib.

  • AdLib : Sally – No worries, we’re totally cool! Have a great weekend!

  • SallyT : I didn’t mean to make anyone mad.

  • AdLib : It is late my friends, let us leave it here for now. Thanks for the invigorating discussion tonight, have a great evening and a wonderful weekend!

  • SallyT : Who said you called anyone dumb? I just said it! I said that doesn’t make them dumb.

  • bito : Sorry, not a good day, best say good night.

  • bito : Damn, Sally, were did you get that from, I never called nor assumed anyone was dumb. This person can vote for Lyndon LaRoche if they so chose no matter any amount of attempted convincing on my or your part. They will gather the facts they want all on their own.

  • AdLib : Sally – What we’re talking about though is ethics, not what is legal. If Romney could have legally paid $0 in taxes on millions in earnings, does that make him ethical? Character is about choices. Someone like Warren Buffet tries to minimize his taxes but he invests in America. Romney chooses to put his money into companies that are tax havens and offshore American jobs. Neither are breaking the law, one is more ethical and one is less.

  • SallyT : Bito, you are looking at it as a voter that has made up your mind. And, that is fine. This person isn’t dumb just because they haven’t decided completely, yet.

  • bito : I wasn’t looking at it at a friendship level Sally, talk all you want, I was looking at it as a voter.

  • SallyT : Who said that they think the tax system is okay. They just said that the tax system favors the rich. That doesn’t mean they are for it! Adlib, the are an accountant. They know taxes. They know how you get from paying taxes within the code. That doesn’t mean they think it is fair. It is their job.

  • AdLib : Sally – I don’t agree that someone who sees Romney as you described is in the middle. Nor do I think we are seeing it from our side. Both the Left and Right see the tax system as unfair and slanted. Both the Left and the Right believe Romney should release his tax returns and not doing so is an offense ot tradition and the voters of this nation. If this person disagrees and is ambivalent about Romney, that is far away from the middle.

  • bito : Perhaps ‘give up’ is a bit harsh, but they are going to make up their mind on their own, I would move on, there are more doors to knock.

  • AdLib : Sally – They do sound like an under-informed voter. Anyone who thinks that our tax system is okay, one that allows the wealthy to slide out of paying their fair share of taxes while the rest of the country pays theirs, doesn’t sound like they’re fully aware of how corrupt it is and how people like Romney have paid to corrupt it and avoid paying their fair share. Does this person think Romney shouldn’t need to release his returns? That he’s refusing to do so just out of principle and he isn’t hiding anything bad?

  • SallyT : Why would you give up on the person. I haven’t. We have conversations on all this. They are not RightWing and they are not Left. They are looking at it from the middle. We are only seeing it from our side. I don’t try to force my opinion. I just share it. They are not a lost cause. They are very smart and I do take offense that it is assumed that they aren’t because they haven’t made their mind up. That isn’t fair to me or my friend.

  • AdLib : Bito – I don’t give up on this person but I would ask them to look at the big picture and the issue of corruption. The problem with saying that because something is legal that it is okay is that it ignores corruption. Slavery used to be legal, women treated as second class citizens used to be legal, torture was legal according to the Bush Admin and avoiding paying your fair share if you’re rich is legal…only because our laws have been corrupted. If one isn’t looking at the big picture of how our system has been corrupted and only thinks, “He hasn’t done anything illegal,” they are totally missing the context of what’s going on and out of context, terrible things can look just fine.

  • SallyT : Look, I don’t know why you feel it necessary to tell me stuff I already know. My point that started all this was that you assumed that this was a low informed voter. They are not. Just because they haven’t formed their opinion yet doesn’t mean they are low informed. They are still a voter that is making up their mind. They are not a lost cause.

  • bito : If he didn’t do anything wrong then he has no reason to not do as his daddy did, release his tax returns. Does money in the Caymans help build roads and schools? What kind of president would deprive children of schools. I give up on this person, he wants to vote for Mitt, that’s all, move on.

  • AdLib : And keep in mind, the wealthy who are trying to buy this election, are doing so legally. They have bought the tax law they are profiting on by buying politicians to change the laws to their liking. That’s not illegal but it is unfair and unethical.

  • AdLib : Sally – What does legal have to do with fair? It used to be legal to do many unfair things to many people. If someone isn’t breaking the law when they act unethically, is that okay?

  • bito : ‘xactly, k’es

  • SallyT : They don’t “rationalize” that the wealthy deserv not to pay fair share of taxes. In fact, the pundit experts are saying that Romney probably didn’t do anything illegal in his filings.

  • AdLib : Kes – Bingo! And that does matter…unless we should revere drug lords and porn kings because they’re rich too.

  • kesmarn : Can’t leave without saying: that is it in a nutshell, b’ito and AdLib: It’s not about the fact that Romney is rich. It’s how he got that way. OK. Over and out!

  • AdLib : Night Murph! Sleep well!

  • AdLib : Night Kes, you have a great weekend too!

  • bito : Good Night Ms. k’es, sleep well.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Well I just intended to stop by for a few minutes and that was 90 plus minutes ago. Good night to one and all.

  • AdLib : Sally – No one has said that being rich is a bad thing. Avoiding paying your fair share in taxes and refusing to be transparent about your financial dealings and interests with the American public is what’s offensive. Does this person think Romney’s refusal to let them know if he was invested in Iran or Chinese offshoring, is a good thing? That because he’s rich, we don’t deserve to know as much about him as we should? I don’t get that.

  • bito : It has nothing about him being rich Sally, he stole pensions in order to get rich, he fired people from their jobs, he soole people;s homes and livelihoods to get rich.

  • kesmarn : In fact, b’ito, I might also declare it a church! Think of the tax advantages. And the headquarters could be in the Cayman Islands. Wow, friends…1:30 a.m. here. I think I’m gonna have to call it a day. Have a wonderful weekend, all!

  • AdLib : Sally – I do agree with Bito, someone who can rationalize the wealthy as deserving of not having to pay their fair share seems like the type who think they will one day be millionaires and would do the same thing. If that’s the case, this is an underinformed person because their chances of becoming a millionaire are 99.99% against.

  • SallyT : But, those aren’t facts, AdLib, they are assumed because we haven’t seen the tax returns. To some people they need to see it. If this person saw the returns, they would be even more upset that the rules favor the rich. In fact, more would be. We are coming from a point that we know we have the right guy, this person is an Independent and doesn’t think that being rich is the worst thing about Romney.

  • bito : House the Pink Fink in a 50 Cent Tent. Whoopie, no income or sales taxes for k’es,!

  • bito : Sally, if they are willing to accept any amount of lying and corruption, so be it, they will vote for Mitt. Move on to someone else.

  • AdLib : Murph – I’m optimistic about Obama’s chances because he’s ahead in the electoral count now, when he should be at his lowest. The economy typically picks up in the fall and there’s a bit more optimism then about incumbents. And Romney is such a deeply flawed candidate that people just can’t warm up to, I can’t see how he becomes “hot”. Only Obama has that potential. In a war of attrition though, with Obama and Romney being hammered, Romney has a glass jaw as we’ve seen while Obama stands tough. Obama wins if he breaks away, he wins if it’s a battle of negatives. And once a majority of people start tuning into the race, I think Romney loses the support he currently has.

  • kesmarn : I think I’ll start a charity, b’ito. It will be for the purpose of putting Sheriff Joe into some pink underwear and making him live in a tent in the desert. I’ll call it: House the Pink Fink in a 50 Cent Tent.

  • bito : k’es, I can believe that, Sheriff Joe’s birth cert. posse tried to claim that they were a charity. It’s on TO/OT. Dumb!

  • kesmarn : I guess what I’m wondering, Sally, is if this person is okay with the rules being in favor of the wealthy?

  • SallyT : Not necessarily, Kes. They don’t call it playing just that the rules are in their favor. Which they are.

  • AdLib : Sally, I still don’t understand why a person would give no weight to the arguments and facts portraying Romney as unethical and just accept Romney’s POV that whatever wealthy people have done to corrupt the tax system so they don’t have to pay a fair share of taxes is okay. Doesn’t that conflict with a person’s sense of fairness?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally…just re-read my post to you re Washington…for got to say this was in relationship to the idea of being “well regulated”

  • bito : If you have ever canvased (bleeding knuckles) the trick is to make it personal, not just pol running for office.

  • SallyT : Bito, their answer would be that if they had as much money as Romney, why would they be looking for that position. And, the rich have offshore accounts. That is not an issue. If you are against him because he is rich, yes, but most of this is expected. I am not saying they are voting for Romney. I just find it funny that the first thing someone assumes is that they are a low informed voter.

  • kesmarn : On keeping it local: Joe the Plumber’s campaign finances are already under scrutiny here. Seems he didn’t own a suit and dipped into his campaign fund to spruce up his (Plumber’s Butt) wardrobe. Uh-oh. That’s a no-no.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad….stand in awe of your persistent optimism…as I admit my pessimism.

  • AdLib : Murph – It’s a very hard core psychological attempt, to give people permission to change their minds. It’s like an attempt to be one’s conscience, a kind of passive mind control. In the end, it won’t work because the inescapable next step is to look at Romney and decide if he is the one they want to change to. As some central issues are hammered home this Fall to voters, about Romney’s wanting to end Medicare and SS ads we know it, give the wealthy more, slash jobs for teachers, policemen, firemen, etc., this ad will be long forgotten.

  • kesmarn : Sally, is this person’s basic attitude: “The rich can play by different rules, and I’m okay with that.”?

  • bito : just keeping local and familiar, k’es.

  • SallyT : AdLib, there is no reason to question this person’s mind just because they don’t figure this an issue because they know that the rich don’t pay as much taxes.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally…during Washington’s first term he sponsored and saw passed a law that required every household with an adult male to have a gun and sufficient supply of ammunition. Why? That was the the foundation of the national army. NRA does not accept this as the reality for the Framers.

  • kesmarn : Good one, b’ito!

  • kesmarn : Yes, AdLib, and they will trot out their phony, can’t-be-docume nted arguments and tout them as Eternal Verities. I say we need a Bonfire of their Verities.

  • bito : Ask them this Sally, would you vote for your local tax assessor if you knew they had an account in the caymans

  • AdLib : Kes – Which is why, technically, you can’t call Fox viewers low info voters, they have plenty of info, it’s just lies and propaganda, that’s all.

  • SallyT : A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

  • SallyT : It was pointed out to me today that the third word of the Second Admendment was the word “regulated”. Now that is interesting.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…just what I was thinking of…and it also appeals to wishy washy, generally uninformed Obama supporter for 2008. The message: Obama had good intentions, but was not up to the job, and you now have a change to correct your mistake. Sweet, sappy, and soft in its approach…I get sick when I see it, but for some others it seems to be a permission to do what they might be reluctant to do.

  • AdLib : Sally – Unless they’re intentionally filtering our the charges and facts made by the press and Obama’s campaign, such people should have questions in their mind about whether Romney has been ethical in the way he’s used his money. Why would a fair minded person assume Romney’s words are good enough but The Washington Post’s isn’t?

  • kesmarn : That’s one fact they have a lot of trouble with, b’ito. But it’s a Happy Fact…those are the best kind.

  • bito : k’es, Fact: There’s a black man in OUR White House

  • AdLib : Murph – It’s like the GOP’s latest ad about “He tried, you tried, it’s okay to make a change.” Act authoritarian, give people “permission” to follow the propaganda they’re fed which is full of false promises and phony assurances. People will give into hate and selfishness if they’ve been given permission and see others doing the same.

  • SallyT : But, as far as Romney’s tax returns they figure it is just a rich man’s way of not paying taxes. Without the facts they are not seeing how much that really is and they aren’t forming an opinion other than the rich get rich.

  • kesmarn : Facts…not fact. (Although only having to remember one would be easier on their tiny brains.)

  • kesmarn : That’s where those studies come in that prove that FUX viewers are actually more poorly informed than people who watch no news at all. They’ve got the fact…just none of the correct ones.

  • SallyT : This person is more of “show me the facts and I will form my opinion”. ‘

  • AdLib : Kes – “Show us your tax returns”, especially when it’s been validated by big voices on the Right, is indeed very potent while “Show us another birth certificate we can refuse to accept,” isn’t.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- as in the corrupt of their mental processes and their willingness to allow the mean and selfish to triumph as they regard that to be in their immediate interests.

  • AdLib : corrupt

  • AdLib : Murph – Fox viewers aren’t low info voters, just crrupt info voters.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally…I know a number of people like this…strong info but their filters interpret the info in ways that lead to really strange conclusions.

  • AdLib : Sally – Can you fully explain your point about this person? I am bewildered, I think I missed why you were bringing them up.

  • SallyT : You assumed that they were a low inform and I am just saying that they aren’t.

  • kesmarn : B’ito, I taught Bill all the Latin he knows. :-) (3 words). And AdLib, yes — “Show us your tax returns” is a lot more relevant than “Show us your (other) birth certificate.”

  • AdLib : Kes and Bito – Oh right! That is a good one!!!

  • bito : You even spelled it correctly k’es, I butchered it. :-)

  • AdLib : Sally – I don’t understand what you are saying about the particular person you’re referring to.

  • AdLib : Kes – Yes, the Entitlement Queen Ann-toinette, with her dressage and “our turn” and “you people”, lacks the humility of a likeable person.

  • AdLib : Kes – The one ace in the hole Obama has is a very strong likeability and trust with the majority of Americans. The RW may hammer hard on Obama but his floor on those numbers is pretty strong and much higher than Romney’s. Both will be pounded hard but Romney has no floor of goodwill, even among Repubs. From that POV, a negative campaign can damage Romney far more than Obama.

  • bito : k’es does a great job explaining it, she taught it to Prez Clinton ;-) Liberty/ E Plurbius Unium

  • kesmarn : Bill Clinton used to ask people to take a penny out of their pockets. On one side, he’d note, it said “Liberty.” On the other “E Pluribus Unum.” He would point out the need to balance individual freedoms with the common good.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes….As Ann says….”you people” would be a lot better off if you just trust us, the born leaders of society.

  • SallyT : Someone that votes regularly and concerned about the issues.

  • kesmarn : And he does not have a wife who projects “sweet” the way Laura Bush did. I found it hard to dislike her, but Ann-toinette is a different story.

  • AdLib : Bito – What was the penny trick again?

  • AdLib : Sally – Who are you talking about?

  • bito : What AdLib said, that’s exactly what I’m trying to say, that and k’eses penny trick works wonders on R leaners.

  • kesmarn : That Richie-Rich quality he exudes is really a turnoff, even to some people who are inclined to vote for Rs in general.

  • AdLib : Kes – The enthusiasm Repubs have from hatred of Obama is diluted by their dislike of Romney. Yes, the base of racists will turn out to try and vote Obama out but I think many are overestimating how much the more moderate Repubs will be discouraged from voting.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : kes…but they are still voting for him…and the money continues to roll on in.

  • SallyT : I am sorry, but this wasn’t a low info voter.

  • kesmarn : I’ve never seen the Repubs I know so lacking in enthusiasm for a candidate. They are barely tolerating him.

  • AdLib : Sally, most low info voters vote for the person they like and trust most. As long as Romney is surrounded by info that makes him even more unlikeable and untrustworthy, whether or not the individual items raise interest in low info voters, he will lose.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib combining your POV with Bito’s approach re. money, money seems very workable to me.

  • bito : As in St. Chuck

  • kesmarn : Or as in the diabolical little doll, Murph….

  • MurphTheSurf3 : kes…chuckie, as in cheese? OMG

  • SallyT : Murph, that is my worry. I mentioned it to someone and all I got was “The rich get away with everything. Why look?” But, if they saw how much and how and where I think that would be a whole lot of difference.

  • AdLib : Murph – Again, I don’t think the specifics of his financial dealings will make a difference with low info voters but the impression all of it leaves of Romney as slimy and sleazy will make a difference.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : bito…good, simple, line of argument…like it.

  • kesmarn : Hey, Murph. The longer title is “Chuckie’s House of Pain,” which got a huge chuckle from co-workers when I first came up with it.

  • bito : I do Murph, you don’t have explain it, just push the point of liar and stealer of pensions, people hat those two without going into details, i know, I’ve done it.

  • kesmarn : Thanks much, AdLib.

  • AdLib : Kes – Presidential debates: October 3, 16, 22

  • kesmarn : Actually taking guns away from the GOP base sounds like a pretty good idea. You have to be a card carrying Dem to own one.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes, hi…house of pain

  • kesmarn : I wish, Sally! Another long shift at the House of Pain, but I’ll be going to bed soon.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Bito…do you this the Average Joe and Jo will get excited about the financial scandals….so far I am not seeing much engagement at all.

  • AdLib : Bito – Mitt is so disliked in MA, even more so since he flipped on everything he claimed he believed in while Mayor. That may help to explain the Boston Globe’s tenaciousness in exposing the fraud and liar that he is.

  • SallyT : Hello, Kes! Are rested?

  • kesmarn : When is the first debate asked the cable-free woman. And h’ello, b’ito. Just home from work.

  • AdLib : Murph – So he supports taking guns away from the GOP base? That’s a bold move!

  • bito : Hello, k’es!

  • AdLib : Sally – Obama will bring it up in the debates, I’m certain of that. He’d be foolish to avoid it.

  • bito : David Corn and the Boston Globe are like pit bulls on mitts crotch

  • kesmarn : Let them eat tiramisu, said Mrs. Romney.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : GUNS…Saw Richard Feldman, the Pres. of The Independent Firearm Owners Association on Granholm. He spoke of the need for a clear purpose: to keep guns out of the hands of the Criminal, negligent, and deranged – interesting focus.

  • AdLib : Hey Kes! Love “Ann-toinette” !!!

  • SallyT : I don’t know, AdLib, if Obama will or even if they will ask enough question on it. The debates are only good when the questions are and they are made to answer.

  • AdLib : Sally – I’ve been very encouraged by the real journalism that’s been going on with regards to uncovering the truth about Romney, his investments and Bain. If that continues, the MSM will indeed continue to make it a big deal.

  • bito : Murph, if you follow Karoli and Desert Beacon, they have been on tip of all the banking scams. The links are all in our timeline, we swap links

  • kesmarn : As Ann-toinette said: How are “you people” doing this late evening?

  • SallyT : I am pretty sure Romney was invested heavily in Hedge Funds.

  • AdLib : Any bets, won’t Obama smack Romney in the debates over what terrible things he’s hiding in his tax returns?

  • SallyT : AdLib, if the MSM will stay hunger on it, that will help, too.

  • AdLib : Sally – Yes, the Repubs telling Romney to release his returns gives Obama and everyone on the Left immunity from partisanship in pummeling him from now until November over his returns.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Bito…Citicorp has now joined HSBC in the line of shame…but most are not noticing.

  • SallyT : Bito, I hadn’t read that one but another. Yours looks better. I will read it!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Did you all see how quickly both Boehner and Pelosi made it clear that they opposed tax return expectations for members of Congress?

  • AdLib : Bito – Which is why we should take advantage of the hammer Romney has handed us. He refuses to admit what terrible things his returns would show so we should pound him on all of the above.

  • SallyT : But, it is good that so many of the Repugs are saying he should.

  • bito : did you read this Sally? «link» and he is scheduled to party with them in London. is that crazy enough?

  • SallyT : He’ll never show them.

  • SallyT : Murph, I believe that! That is why it would be good to see them. That would really tick people off more about the rich and that tax increase would go through like fast!

  • AdLib : Murph – That is so true. And his returns would further dispute all the howling of the wealthy about the taxes they pay. They don’t pay much in taxes, they just want to pay less and a Romney tax percentage of 0% – 5% would destroy his case for slashing taxes for the wealthy by 20%. So, he will never show them.

  • bito : If he won’t release, we are free to assume, he has to deny and the only way he can deny is to release. A tax tautology

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…read a column today in financial times that said that Romney’s returns are bad news for Romney because they will anoint him as the post child for our absolutely hopeless tax code that is written by the rich for the rich…legal and reprehensible

  • AdLib : Murph – Banking and oil are global and dominate our nation to further their global interests. They aren’t really American and they sure ain’t people!

  • SallyT : I mean look at all the attention the shit head Birthers still get.

  • SallyT : Bito, we have to pile on the crazy, too. Weird stuff.

  • AdLib : Bito – Exactly! Why shouldn’t we pile on him for all the terrible possibilities that could be in his returns? We could even be right!

  • SallyT : No, AdLib, not Obama. We need our own Trump like.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad what most miss is that the banking culture is inherently global and finances the politics that favor their needs worldwide

  • AdLib : Sally – It would be fun to do. And since Romney will refuse to ever show them, Obama and we could accuse him of anything!

  • bito : I just gave it to you Sally, Cayman, Mitt, HSBC, Mitt, Drug money, Caymans, gun money, Mitt, HSBC..

  • SallyT : I say we get some crazy of our own to make up stuff about Romney’s tax returns like he donated to a memorial to Hitler ~

  • AdLib : Murph – He’s being financed by the banking crooks worldwide, the ones in the US and elsewhere. It is something that most low info voters will never know about or care about but I do think the preponderance of his elitism and rubbing elbows with the wealthiest crooks in the world will though.

  • SallyT : Well, Romney does have stupid on his side. I mean they still don’t think the President was born here and he has proved that.

  • SallyT : Oh, Wait! I get you AdLib. He wouldn’t disprove even if it was a lie about him.

  • AdLib : Sally – Romney can’t lie his way out of accusations he refuses to disprove. The fact that he’ll refuse to disprove them will affirm them and make them look true.

  • bito : Cayman, Mitt, HSBC, Mitt, Drug money, Caymans, gun money, Mitt, HSBC…..

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…you know that Romney is planning to be feted at two big fundraisers in Europe…featuri ng the LIBOR gang…he has no fear of exposure counting on the dull headedness of the undecided voter and the blind faith of the right.

  • AdLib : Bito – Yes, I met Lee (and complimented him) at the Koch protest The Planet co-sponsored last year. He’s a solid guy!

  • SallyT : You think? It isn’t like Romney hasn’t lied before.

  • AdLib : Sally, I don’t know that it’s a bad thing. Obama should lay on every conceivable wrong in Romney’s return and hammer him on things Romney will never disprove.

  • bito : Did you get a chance to meet him AdLib? he was great at the Koch thing.

  • AdLib : Murph – Don’t know what Norway has done about gun control, good question.

  • AdLib : Thanks Funk! Have a great weekend!

  • SallyT : Well, AdLib, I fear that is not good for us. When people don’t see it, it isn’t there. Now the GOP’s wouldn’t see it if it was in front of them but I am worried about the Independents.

  • AdLib : Bito – Lee is a brilliant and dedicated guy, I agree, if anyone could dig out the truth he would.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Anyone…what has Norway done in re. to gun issues since the summer camp shooting last year?

  • SallyT : Good night Funkie!

  • bito : Night, funk

  • AdLib : Sally – My bet is no, Romney’s 2009 tax returns are explosive and he will never let anyone see how horrible they are. He figures the damage from looking like he’s hiding something terrible is better than people really seeing how horrible he is as an American.

  • funksands : Folks I have to step away. As always I greatly appreciate the minds and intent of everyone here. Take care and have a great weekend. If you have kids, hug them physically or over the phone.

  • bito : It’s not hate, it’s complete disgust at their scam

  • AdLib : Funk – Electing people like Bachmann and Gohmert is like inviting Rush to an all you can eat buffet. They gorge themselves on attention, there is never enough so to stand out and get press, they have to keep pushing the envelope. That’s why most of the GOP came out against Bachmann on her xenophobic/McCar thyist letter against Huma.

  • funksands : Its a good motivator

  • funksands : Bito, you have hate on your side.

  • bito : funk if Lee Fang doesn’t know, I doubt if I could find out and he busted the Koch’s wide open

  • SallyT : So, will Romney release his tax returns or do we have to hold him at gun point?

  • funksands : Ad: It would make me feel better if it was orchestrated

  • AdLib : Funk – It’s the art of distraction. I don’t think it is orchestrated, just a perq of having a party that elects ignorant, hateful people who need attention.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Bito…they do, in their promotional material and their annual report to the members. I went to their annual convention in St. Louis this year (with the Sheriff friend). I went to the business meeting where these figures were used.

  • funksands : Bito: I think you have your next assigment

  • funksands : Ad: Yep, its still the quiet dudes in the suits that end up stealing everything.

  • bito : Is that what the NRA claim, Murph?

  • AdLib : Funk – The Gohmert Piles and Bachmanns rally the racist and hateful that represents the base of the GOP and their donations when they go full mental straight jacket. As you say, it’s still cover for the GOP Elite stealing our money and democracy.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad, Funk. Freakin Fringees (or you may use your own favorite F word)

  • SallyT : Maybe we should bring back prohibition and then another Al Copone could start up and we could have gang wars again over illegal liquor territories again. That is how they out-lawed the Tommy Gun. Maybe that would take care of the semi automotics that shoot 100 rounds a minute.

  • funksands : Daleks

  • funksands : Ad, Cylons creates some bad feelings here.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Bito- membership dues only account for about 1/3 of its annual operating budged, special events like its annual convention and regional meetings are good for another 1/3 but that leaves 1/3 for donations and those are undisclosed.

  • AdLib : Murph and Funk – Pod People, Kochroaches, Cylons?

  • funksands : Ad/Murph: My wife just chimed in. She prefers “fuckhead”

  • bito : Murph, who funds the NRA? According to the investigative reporter Lee Fang, no one really knows.

  • AdLib : Funk – Newt’s too busy dealing with animal dung at the zoo…and by that I mean he met with Snooki.

  • funksands : The problem with knuckle-foamers like Gohmert and Bachmann is that I think they are deployed to spout outrageous shit in order to cover for the buttoned-up suits in the GOP that are really stealing everything.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib: Still a fan of Trolls and Ogres

  • SallyT : Murph, we are the only country in the world that buys more guns and more guns. We have enough guns now that ever person in the country could have 1 and that includes babies.

  • AdLib : Funk – The Borg? Orks? The Evil Empire?

  • funksands : Ad, Gingrich needs a janitorial job I hear

  • AdLib : Murph – Not surprising that the NRA made voting for contempt against Holder a scored vote. He threatens their ability to keep selling guns to drug lords in Mexico.

  • funksands : Ad: Too frilly

  • SallyT : Murph, as they say, just follow the money.

  • AdLib : Funk – Anarchists? Nihilists?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally..no, I agree with you fully….I was just adding that there are some very nasty people who are funding the NRA which publicly argues that the guns exist to protect us from those very nasty people. The leadership knows the truth of it.

  • AdLib : Funk – It’s a win-win situation…exce pt for whoever has to clean out all the BS from the Collider that their exploding heads leave.

  • funksands : It’s time to use the word Radicals with a capital “R”. Any other suggestions?

  • SallyT : I guess that could be true, too, Murph. But the besides the drug lords, the ones making the guns are making the money, too.

  • funksands : Ad, and if it doesn’t and they simply are crushed, then we still win. I like how you think.

  • AdLib : Funk – Ain’t nothin’ conservative about Republicans anymore.

  • funksands : I vow from here forward to never use the word conservative again.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally T…my sheriff friend believes that drug lords launder money to give to the NRA to keep the guns they need on the streets (and across the border)

  • AdLib : Funk – What if we could put their heads in the Hadron Collider? When they collided they could prove the beginnings of how the Bizarro Universe was created.

  • funksands : Extremism is the new Conservative. Sheesh.

  • SallyT : Then they put the fear in that Obama is going to take your guns so more guns are bought in case he does. But he won’t.

  • funksands : Sally, with all due respect, it’s about power. They could give a rats ass about the $$. With power, the money follows.

  • SallyT : It is the gun manufacturers here and aboard that fund the NRA to fight gun control. It is all about profits.

  • AdLib : Night Sabreen! Have a great weekend!

  • AdLib : Funk – It’s the culmination of the extremism on the Right. Guns are porno, religion is “either you’re with us or you’re against us”, anyone who isn’t white is a threat to us…everything “conservative” is now extremist.

  • funksands : Ad, that could prove the existence of the “fuckhead” particle. Pardon my french.

  • SallyT : Night Sabreen!

  • SallyT : Have any of you thought that if all these billionairs that are giving to Romney just paid their taxes they would be getting off cheaper?

  • funksands : Night Sabreen, nice seeing you tonight.

  • funksands : Ad, that singularity would wipe out existence

  • Sabreen60 : Nite KT and I will say Good Nite, also. Take care everyone.

  • AdLib : Night KT! Sleep well!

  • AdLib : Sally – Actually, I wonder what the scientific calculations would be, if Bachmann and Gomer had a head on collision and the vacuums inside both of their heads were exposed simultaneously, would it create a black hole?

  • SallyT : I’ll see you around, KT! Have a good night.

  • funksands : Night KT, not far behind you.

  • KillgoreTrout : AdLib, you got a hairnet I can borrow?

  • funksands : KT: Great flick. Very underappreciated .

  • KillgoreTrout : Well peeps I bid you all a pleasant farewell!

  • SallyT : Campaign finance reform! Get the money out of it!

  • funksands : What drives me crazy is that I come from a family that owns guns ( I don’t FYI) that uses them, hunts with them, believes that an armed govt and unarmed citizenry etc. etc. But we have a pornographic obsession with guns in this country now.

  • AdLib : KT – “Mmm! My hair!”

  • AdLib : Murph – The NRA is like Norquist, a perceived authority that must be obeyed. All it takes is for enough people to stop being slaves to them and their power evaporates.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, drum magazines are capable oh olding 100 to 200 rounds. Extremely dangerous fire power.

  • SallyT : AdLib, if Gomer and Bachmann had a head on collision it would be like two balloons popping because they are both airheads!

  • Sabreen60 : I understand he had a drum magazine. Of course, I had to do a bit of research, because I didn’t know what it is.

  • KillgoreTrout : Funk “I don’t want FOP, I’m a Dapper Dan man!”

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib: I regard the power of the NRA to be wildly over stated BUT when allied with the right’s Ministry of Propaganda it can sink a politician overnight.

  • AdLib : Funk – If Gomer and Bachmann had a head on collision, I would not be mourning them.

  • funksands : Sally: :-)

  • SallyT : Funk, well, my daddy had two hunting dogs and when the first shot was fired, they ran and jumped in the trunk of the car!

  • funksands : Ad, I hate that guy. I can only say that about a few people in my life, but that guy needs to get put down. He’s damaged.

  • AdLib : You know the NRA is gearing up now to pour out the propaganda in a flood to drown out earnest human concern over the gun culture in this country. Will they schedule a conference in CO as they did right after Columbine?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen…I asked my sheriff friend about the Gohmert comment…he agrees with you. Untrained, unprepared, leaderless miscellaneous people firing guns randomly in the dark….making a horrifying situation far worse.

  • funksands : Sally: FYI, my grandpa wore bib overalls with no shirt, had a coon hound, a catfish pond, took me on squirrel hunts and wore about ten pounds of pomade in his hair. He was an awesome dude.

  • SallyT : Oh, I agree and that was obvious because he went to great effort to protect himself. That is a given.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally I don’t doubt you, but high powered rifles like the AR 15 fires an armor piercing round. No body armor can stop them at close range.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – Was there anything Gomer Piles said that wasn’t insane?

  • funksands : Sally, my family would have considered that “showing off”.

  • Sabreen60 : Congressman Gohmert (R) asked “did anyone else in the theater have gun?” So what needed to happen (in his mind) was people should have had guns and everybody start shooting in the dark theater. This is insanity of the GOP.

  • SallyT : KT, I don’t know, I am just telling you what the officer at the scene said that was interviewed. He said it was like military armor.

  • AdLib : Sally – I think we’re likely to find a massive egotism to this psycho, he protected himself because he wanted to be alive to bask in the infamy he earned. He wanted to be famous and know that what he did affected the nation. In the short term, I’m sad to say he will get that gratification. When he’s been in a psychiatric prison for 30 years and is in his 50’s, maybe not so much.

  • SallyT : I am from MO, too, Funk. We never would use a semi automatic weapon to hunt. There would be no meat left to eat on the animal!!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally- read a comment by a psychologist who specializes in mass murder by rampage (as he called it). He said that he suspect this guy (like the guy last year from Norway) wanted to live so he could experience the attention, and fame.Such people create spectacles and then want to stay in them.

  • funksands : Sally, what’s funny is that Aussies love us. They think we’re completely unhinged, but fabulous. I love them.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, his head was exposed, save a riot helmet. Cops now carry assault rifles that can penetrate body armor. Most body armor only protects against handgun rounds. High powered rifles can penetrate steel.

  • funksands : Murph, my whole family is from Missouri. It was “gun” before “gun” was cool. However, they were all for killing things we ate. Not for sport.

  • SallyT : Funk, I think your friend knows us too well!

  • KillgoreTrout : After events like yesterday’s there is always a spike in gun sales. Always. It’s like when people in LA heard about the Tate killings, gun sales went through the roof.

  • AdLib : Murph – The type of incident that I am most concerned about is by the RW Militia types. An armed assault by RW extremists that other RW extremists could see as a signal for them to do the same.

  • funksands : Sally, no. They think we’re madder than cut snakes, and I agree with them. I think we are “shedding our skin” as a nation right now, and are just a bit wacky and screwed up. Off kilter.

  • SallyT : Murph, and if the guy hadn’t surrendered, with all the body armor he had on, I heard an officer say that he could have went on for a long time. They don’t know why he stopped and he did surrender to them.

  • Sabreen60 : Nite AB.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad that’s surely part of it. But I do think people are much more afraid than they were before 9/11 and all the fear mongering. It’s probably a combination of both.

  • AdLib : Night AB! Stay dry and laissez les bon temps rouler!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I live in a gun happy state. Spoke with a sheriff I know this afternoon who says that the police here worry about the gun culture all the time and that incidents like this one are surprising only in that they do not happen more often.

  • SallyT : There won’t be gun control until we change campaign finance.

  • AdLib : KT – I think that part of the reason for the decline in support of gun control is that nearly all of the politicians, Dem and Repub won’t support it. We have lost political advocacy in DC for gun control so of course, with only one side propagandizing, Americans have to buck the NRA mentality to support gun control.

  • SallyT : Funk, do you have an answer for him?

  • KillgoreTrout : Take care AB, have a good evening.

  • funksands : Nite AB. Take care.

  • SallyT : Goodnight AB!

  • funksands : I know that I’ll be getting emails in a few days (after a respectful pause) from my Aussie friends demanding to know what the hell is wrong with us.

  • AlphaBitch : OK, lights off. Friend trying to sleep, and I can’t see to type. Nite all and take care.

  • KillgoreTrout : Could be Ad. Could be. I guess we will find out soon enough.

  • AdLib : AB – I truly hate when that happens!!!

  • AdLib : KT – Imagine having spent many years with a son who displayed psychopathic tendencies, seeing them get worse as he got older and while you know this, there’s nothing you can possibly do about it. I would bet he was pretty vicious towards her too so she would know how horrible a person he was.

  • funksands : Sally, I think you have solved the case. You are a smart lady.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think the persentage of people going down is because of all the fear mongering in the last decade. That and incidents like this one. People have less and less faith in law enforcement these days.

  • Sabreen60 : Good Nite Sue

  • AlphaBitch : ARRG! Wrote Sue a long reply about Edwin “Buck” Brewer but it got lost. Shite.

  • SallyT : Night, Sue and i haven’t got your email!

  • KillgoreTrout : I agree Funk!

  • SallyT : Funk, that is why when they asked the question, they asked, “Do you think we need more gun control?” The answer was NO because they thought we already have gun control.

  • KillgoreTrout : Night Sue.

  • AdLib : Funk – I think his mother will shed a great deal of light on what was going on in his messed up head.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I’m sure it could and has happened. but, not even a cursory defense, or surprise?

  • funksands : Night Sue.

  • funksands : KT, the complete and total lack of surprise tells me that clues to his behavior will likely emerge in the coming days.

  • AdLib : Night Sue! Sleep well!

  • AdLib : KT – A mother who knows far too well that her son is psychopathic and that there’s nothing she could do about it since he’s an adult.

  • SueInCa : Rising sea levels and all that huh Adlib. Well good night everyone take care of you

  • funksands : AB, good thing all of those federal sand berms that Jindal insisted be built (and washed away the next day) did the trick.

  • AdLib : AB – And just imagine how bad the flooding would be in NO if Climate Change wasn’t a hoax!

  • SallyT : I only did that once, Funk!

  • funksands : AB, I had no idea! Wow, what a bummer.

  • KillgoreTrout : Same here Funk. What mother would not at least try to defend her child, at least in the beginning.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi Murph! And I don’t think I spoke to you, Funk – so Hi!

  • AlphaBitch : “Tried to wash us away”, Funk. So we split and are back in Lafayette. Big storms, but far less flooding. At least here we are near sea level, not below it!

  • funksands : Damn, Sally you might be onto something. You and your saliva.

  • AdLib : Hey Murph!

  • AdLib : Funk – Yes and I think we need a real holistic mental health program in the nation that takes the mentally ill off streets and takes care of them and makes mental health a more pervasive pursuit. Some horrible events could be prevented though we can never stop them all.

  • KillgoreTrout : True Sally, I should have said apparent motive.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Late but here

  • funksands : One thing that chills me about this incident, is when Holmes’ mom was told what happened, and she responded: “Yes, you have the right person”. No surprise at all.

  • SueInCa : AB was there an additional first name?

  • SallyT : He said Funk that most people believe that you have to have a background check in every state before you can buy a gun. This is not true.

  • bito : Another point of why Raygun wouldn’t be welcome in todays GOP, gun control

  • KillgoreTrout : Really interesting AB.

  • funksands : AB, how’s the Big Easy treating you?

  • funksands : Sally, that’s really interesting. Hmmmm

  • funksands : Ad, that may be true, but it doesn’t mean others couldn’t have been stopped. Just because one slips through doesn’t mean others wouldn’t have. Which I know you know.

  • AlphaBitch : C’mon down, Funk! But wait until I get home from LA, ”tay?

  • SallyT : Funk, I heard a gentleman on the Bradly Gun Control say that the reason it went down is because people believe, falsely, that we already have gun control.

  • SueInCa : Funk that was kind of what I was getting to earlier with the mass murder question what changed>

  • AdLib : Funk – I don’t see that people like this could ever be stopped. No safety net could have worked, only people around him who could have been aware…and none may have been…could have stopped him.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, I think there is a distinction. It’s whether or not the perpetrator is sane enough to know the difference between right and wrong. competence hearings are usually held to make the determination. The prosectution hires a shrink to inventory the suspect. Often the defense will do the same.

  • funksands : AB, now you’ve done it, I am totally on my way to San Antonio. I love shit like this.

  • SueInCa : well I know I could never kill someone unless it was to save my own life much less kill a mob of people

  • SallyT : But, KT, we don’t know if Holmes had a motive or not, yet. Still things to come out.

  • funksands : 78% of US citizens polled in 1990 supported comprehensive gun control. Now its 44%. What happened?

  • AlphaBitch : KT; My family was very close friends w/ one of the cops who rode the rear motorcade. He ran up the depository, found a MAUSER (not a Mannlicher Carcano). This man could tell any gun blindfolded. He gave it to his super. He was so spooked and such a bad liar in life, that he would only every say ‘It’s just like they say’ when asked why he found a Mauser but it was presented as a Carcano. Google Edwin Brewer. We’ll chat sometime.

  • funksands : Ad, very true.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen because there is motive. They do it as tribal warfare, or in some way to show a gang’s power. With people like Holmes, there is no motive.

  • SueInCa : KT I agree no bullet can take the ride they say his did and a single bolt rifle takes a lot to reload. Funk I know it is sad.

  • AdLib : Bito – There is a misconception that being mentally ill means being mentally deficient. Ted Kaczynski, whoever executed the anthrax terrorism, many of these mentally damaged people are not also idiots.

  • funksands : AB, I have a sister-in-law who fits that description to a “T”. Life is far too interesting with her in it.

  • funksands : Bito, good points. Thanks. It doesn’t help when we don’t even use the right descriptors.

  • KillgoreTrout : I just can’t get past the kill shot regarding Kennedy. To me, that was without a doubt a shot that came from the front. I’ve been around guns quite a bit, and was around them even more in the Marines. That shot just did not look like it came from behind.

  • funksands : Sue, insurance won’t cover it. States won’t staff for it. For the mentally ill there are only three options: Determined family, jail, or death.

  • SallyT : Did any of you hear that he had his radio come on loud in his apartment at 12:oo midnight automatically?

  • AlphaBitch : Bito: I was told by the Dr. who evaluated our very own little psycho that they are most often extremely intelligent and charming, as they tend to need charm to carry off their parasitic lifestyles and pathological lying……

  • bito : Psychotic is when the fridge talks to you, pathic is a manipulative disorder

  • bito : AB, the planning yes, that is psychopathic and the intelligence part doesn’t really matter, they can be dumb or smart.

  • Sabreen60 : KT, My point is if a gang-banger can open fire on a group of people and not care who he hits, why is he not crazy?

  • SueInCa : Funk you are right. When RAygun closed the state hospitals and sent the people to the streets that is when our homeless ppop exploded

  • KillgoreTrout : Gang bangers kill mostly for money and power. I don’t think they are mentally ill, just morally deficient. Many are raised to be gang bangers and join gangs at very young ages. They are more brainwashed than crazy.

  • Sabreen60 : KT, Then maybe we need to make a distinction between LEGALLY insane or not.

  • funksands : Regardless of the motive, there is no help for the mentally ill in this country. That’s a shade hyperbolic, but not by much. Eventually some of them will be compelled to acts like this without intervention

  • AlphaBitch : Bito: which would explain his intelligence and planning.

  • SallyT : I don’t believe in the magic bullet either.

  • AdLib : Sue – Oh! It’s one thing we’ll never know, it sure seems unlikely that Oswald could do it alone but it’s not impossible.

  • SueInCa : I csnnot buy a single bolt action theory Sabreen

  • bito : From what I understand he is a psychopathic not psychotic

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, many people who are mentally ill will go to great lengths to do what Holmes did. There is something not right in his head. Z was different in that he acted out of suspicion and bigotry. He may not have intened to shoot Trayvon at the outset, but that is surely what happened.

  • SallyT : That and how many of the political people stayed in politics and went on to the Watergate break in!

  • SueInCa : AB or elephants.

  • Sabreen60 : Sally, I have to agree with you about JFK. I just can’t buy the magic bullet theory.

  • AdLib : Funk – Like everything else that the wealthy and powerful have successfully propagandized, enough people have to suffer badly enough to scare politicians over their re-election before things can change.

  • SueInCa : No Adlib we were talking about Oswald

  • SueInCa : Yes Watson I have and it is peculiar how many witnesses died of natural causes LOL

  • AdLib : Sue – I don’t know that he would have needed an accomplice. I have an app on my phone that I can use to make my phone ring like I was getting a call. He allegedly got a call before going to the emergency exit. It all seems like a scenario in his twisted mind, to fake a call, use that as an excuse to go to the exit and grab the equipment he previously stashed there. If there had been an accomplice, he would have texted and the psycho would have had his phone on silent so no one noticed.

  • Sabreen60 : KT, Is Zimmerman crazy? Are gang-bangers crazy? Do you have to be crazy to walk into your former job and open fire? I don’t think this guy was crazy. He knew exactly what he was doing and had planned for it very well.

  • AlphaBitch : Assault weapons = more casualties, pure and simple. don’t need them for hunting – unless you are hunting people.

  • funksands : Remember when Social Security used to be the “third rail” of politics? Now its guns. A schism has been created that I’m not sure how to fix.

  • SallyT : Sherlock, remember the movie JFK? Have you ever looked up the people named in that movie on the internet? It is amazing how much they were really connected. Makes you wonder…….

  • SueInCa : It may be semantics but triple killing is the end for me then it goes into mass. Technically a mass is 144 austrian crystals

  • funksands : Sabreen for sure.

  • Sabreen60 : Sue, many instances of murder occur where 3-5 people are killed at a time. It is true that this crime – especially the number of people injured and killed is unusual.

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t know yet what it was that motivated Holmes to do what he did. But it’s pretty obvious that he’s a few fries short of a happy meal!

  • SueInCa : Actually I was a junior in HS when Kent State happened. perhaps I know because I was more political by that time.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – Yes, I think as a nation, we have taken for granted that a number of these types of things happen every year. As I mentioned, many of these though are revenge shootings after being let go from a job or being left by a spouse.

  • SueInCa : I am not a conspiracy theorist but I agree with you KT I do not believe he acted alone

  • SallyT : Sabreen, the number killed in those others aren’t as many people as this but none have been.

  • SueInCa : The first one I remember was Kent State and I think I was in 9th or 10th grade?

  • KillgoreTrout : I believe Oswald had some help, if he was a shooter at all.

  • SallyT : Sabreen that is a true figure.

  • SueInCa : I guess my definition is too simplistic.

  • funksands : Ad, right. For example, many parents live in fear of their child being snatched but its very very rare.

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, I heard on the news that about 20 of these kinds of incidents happen each year in this country. I did not verify. Could it be that we have become numb?

  • AdLib : Sue – Many mass shootings in post offices through the years and other places of work. Multiple shootings of spouses and others, mass killings have always been around.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, I think you are right on about Kent State. I think it was a government attempt to quell campus rioting.

  • SallyT : But, do we know yet what his motives were?

  • AdLib : Funk – BTW, good to see you at VP! I do think that thanks to the omnipresent MSM and internet, people are more likely to exaggerate the danger from one incident into something pervasive. Remember after 9/11, people in rural areas in the midwest were fearful they would be next?

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, terrorISM is a tactic. There is always some sort of political or military motivation. These random acts are just the acts of seriously deranged people. It’s a matter of semantics I guess.

  • AlphaBitch : Louise Richardson who wrote “What Terrorists Want” (excellent read BTW) defines terrorism by the “deliberate and violent targeting of civilians for POLITICAL purposes”. Given that, I’d say it wasn’t terrorism in this instance. but if he had been Muslim, I agree it would have been described as terrorism, albeit errroneously.

  • SueInCa : Oswald did his deed with a bolt action rifle if you believe that

  • SueInCa : I know about the assassinations and I know about the lynchings but this mass murder in a single shot. Perhaps Hitler was still too fresh on peoples’ minds I don’t know

  • AdLib : KT – Right, this act is very different from terrorism. It was the planned act of someone who is psychotic, the purpose WAS the incident as opposed to terrorism where the incident is supposed to help advance the ultimate plot.

  • KillgoreTrout : Good point Sally. We had semi-autos, but didn’t have such large magazine capacities.

  • SueInCa : I guess Kent State was a form of this except it was the governmnet

  • SallyT : I’m with you, Sherlock! That is terror to me. Knowing that those weapons are easily obtained.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, the closet thing I can remember is when that lunatic in Texas started shooting people from that tower.

  • funksands : Which in a weird way makes me agree with Ad’s last statement. I have zero fear from anything like this happening to me because the odds are so astronomically high. Living in fear is one step away from dying.

  • SallyT : But it does happen often! There are killings everyday.

  • SueInCa : Terror is terror. Someone points a semi-automatic weapon at me I am terrified. It is just another name for murderer

  • AdLib : Sue – Nope but I do remember JFK, RFK and MLK being assassinated as well as black people being lynched. The hatred and insanity of others has always been around, the modern era has given them far more opportunities to do harm in far greater ways.

  • funksands : I’m surprised it doesn’t happen more. A lot more. We’ve got some very deeply rooted problems in our society.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, that is deifferent than wanting to achieve a political outcome or striking fear into one’s enemies. This kid Holmes just committed a very senseless act. There seems to be no real motive behind it. Just insanity.

  • SallyT : We didn’t have semiautomatic weapons available to the general public back then, Sherlock.

  • AdLib : Think about how safe we actually are. It does make you think about how easy it would be to terrorize the entire nation with a coordinated series of simultaneous attacks like this in public places across the country. It would petrify the nation and keep them fearful, locked in their homes. The fact that such kinds of acts haven’t occurred says a lot about how safe we really are in general.

  • SueInCa : Which goes back to a question I asked earlier Does anyone remember this stuff growing up?

  • funksands : But its really just simply premeditated murder. Just like this shooting. Trying to box these things into terror or non-terror seems to change the intent of the perpetrator to fit our own need to understand it.

  • KillgoreTrout : I would say no. That is just general wariness of the way the world is today.

  • SueInCa : I guess I just see it all as terrorism. Zimmerman terrorized Trayvon. Anyone who holds you with a weapon so powerful is trying to terrorize you

  • SallyT : I tried saliva just a few years ago for the first time. I went to cartoon land. Everything was bright colors and over sized. Oh and by the way, saliva is legal. Well, for now it is.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, I would say it was both, considering the shooter’s ties to radical Muslim clerics.

  • funksands : Sue, I would classify Ft Hood as terrorism.

  • Sabreen60 : KT, Is it terrorism if people become afraid of going somewhere or flying, etc. because of terrorist attacks?

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, no, I like the real thing. I’m old school.

  • SueInCa : Does anyone remember these things when we were growing up? I don’t

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, very similar, but more potent and the effect is much shorter. People claim to have very intense spiritual events while taking it.

  • SallyT : I would like to get in the NRA’s face! They want their Second Amendment Rights. Well, I want the right to not worry about all those “Jokers” out there with guns!

  • KillgoreTrout : There is a really good doc called DMT (the spirit molecule). I saw it on netflix.

  • SueInCa : So KT would you say Fort Hood was just terrifying or terrorist?

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, an act of terrorism is usually done to strike fear in an enemy or gain some political goal. This thing at the theater was simply terrifying.

  • SallyT : KT, have you ever smoked saliva?

  • SueInCa : The spirit molecule? Sounds like LSD

  • SueInCa : You betcha Dr Watson

  • KillgoreTrout : I have never tried Ayahuesca. It’s a South American concoction that is loaded with DMT, or what they call the “spirit molecule.”

  • SallyT : Haven’t we all, Sherlock?

  • SueInCa : Well Maize is going to be in short supply soon

  • SueInCa : I never smoked it in my life but I did other things close.

  • KillgoreTrout : Maize means “that which sustains us.” I read that somewhere.

  • SallyT : Peyote can make you believe a lot of things, Sherlock!

  • Sabreen60 : KT, explain please.

  • SueInCa : Well Sally I believe in Peyote

  • KillgoreTrout : It was a terrifying act, but not necessarily an act of terrorism.

  • SallyT : I was finding just the right quote of Robert Ingersoll to put on AdLib’s article. I thought he needed an atheist’s opinion. Not mine but Ingersoll. I follow my Native American ancestors and believe in corn.

  • SueInCa : KT yeah I could see her jumping off the boat while it was still going, Uh huh I can see it in my mind

  • SueInCa : Sabreen I have not seen any reports of a religious bent

  • SueInCa : Sally I saw you a long time ago, you can run but you can’t hide LOL

  • SallyT : Hi, Sabreen!

  • KillgoreTrout : Only The Shadow knows!

  • SallyT : I’m pretty good at lurking, KT.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi Sally!

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Sally, I was just going to ask if you were lurking about! LOL

  • SallyT : Good evening everyone!

  • KillgoreTrout : Could you see Sarah as a shrimp boat captain?

  • Sabreen60 : Sue, the MSM seems to only refer to mass murderers as terrorist if they are Muslim. You mention white. There are white Muslims. My question was geared toward religion rather than the color of ones skin. But since you mentioned it, black murderers are usually instantly referred to as “murderers and thugs”.

  • KillgoreTrout : I get it. Pretty funny. There are so many great lines from that movie.

  • AdLib : BRB

  • SueInCa : BRB

  • SueInCa : KT STOP followed run forest run on the football field I was not telling you to stop

  • KillgoreTrout : LOL!

  • SueInCa : Hey where did adlib go?

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, that depends if you are a right winger or not. They jump at the chance to call events like this, Islamic extremism, in hopes of making Obama look soft on terror.

  • SueInCa : STOP!

  • KillgoreTrout : Run Sarah, run!

  • SueInCa : No Sabreen he is one of us white terrorists

  • SueInCa : LOL KT I am going to start calling her Sarah Gump Palin. Sarah, Sarah Gump Palin

  • Sabreen60 : Is the guy a terrorist or do you have to be Muslim before you can wear that title?

  • KillgoreTrout : Sarah Gump!

  • SueInCa : And a lot of crazies like Palin only have an iq of 85

  • KillgoreTrout : For sure Sue. Lots of crazy people have very high IQs.

  • SueInCa : Aloha Sabreen

  • AdLib : Hey Sabreen!

  • SueInCa : Perhaps KT but smart does not mean much when your mind gets scrambled

  • KillgoreTrout : The cops said the explosives in his apt. were intricately wired. Definitely not a crime of passion, for sure.

  • SueInCa : AB Liberals made the character named Bane on purpose to make fun of Republicans

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Sabreen!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, this kid was smart. He was going for his doctorate before he withdrew.

  • AdLib : As the Dark Knight’s premiere has been known for months and the psycho seemed anxious about calling himself the Joker, considering that was in the last movie, my guess would be he was preparing months ago for this day. The Columbine shooters planned well in advance too.

  • Sabreen60 : Hello Everyone

  • SueInCa : Well that makes sense KT

  • AlphaBitch : Sue: what cue? anything specific said by Rush

  • SueInCa : AB I am just wondering if he took the cue from Rush. He could not have known The Black Knight was going to be playing on that night at that time months ago.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, I read that he bought a ticket then slipped out the exit and got everything together. He propped the door so he could get back in.

  • AlphaBitch : Guys: Sorry but I’m on the road. what’s the spec re: Rush and the shooter? can someone fill me in briefly?

  • SueInCa : See ya Bourne

  • SueInCa : Bourne I wondered about that those theatre people were not very observant. He had to have a duffle or a big jacket. Like BHCop said “a heavy jacket? In June?”

  • KillgoreTrout : See ya Bourne, take care.

  • BourneID : All. I’m going to sign off now. Have a great weekend all and be safe.

  • SueInCa : I hear you Ad the man is sick sick sick but his whole family is techt

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, at least he could say he’s sorry for having to killing a man.

  • SueInCa : Because if he did he might have picked it because of Rush. He had no way of knowing Batman or w/e it was called would be there months ago

  • AdLib : Sue, it’s a necessary part of Z’s defense that he claims no regret…because he was defending himself from an unarmed young black man.

  • BourneID : AdLib, you are probably right, but maybe questions like Sue’s need to be heard so people who listen to Rush and Sean will start thinking about who these men are. I just don’t understand how he could carry that much weaponry even though a short distance from the car. This whole thing just sickens me.

  • KillgoreTrout : Good idea Sue. You just never know anymore.

  • SueInCa : Bourne we have certifiable people everywhere that is why I do not egg anyone on or start shit anywhere

  • SueInCa : Ad do you think he chose the venue at the last minute? Not quite the right word to use but……

  • KillgoreTrout : AdLib, you are probably right, but is this something you’ve read?

  • BourneID : Sue, if Rush does have a heart, I doubt he would know where to find it. He’s a cruel, demonic man. I posted a reply to AdLib’s artile and told of my 6th grade transfer student who came to our district to live with her aunt. The week before, her mother was one of 5 people killed by a man who burst into the insurance office she worked in and shot them because the insurance company didn’t pay his claim. Unreal.

  • KillgoreTrout : Good point Sue.

  • KillgoreTrout : Agree, his lawyer would be a foll to put him on the stand. I was thinking of statements he made on the night of the shooting.

  • SueInCa : KT how can a person who is right in their head not have remorse?

  • AdLib : Bourne – Much as I despise Rush, this act was planned months ago by this psycho.

  • SueInCa : Oh KT he will never hit the witness stand Angela would rip him a new one. His lawyer can at least do that right Hey MTS

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Murph!

  • KillgoreTrout : I agree Sue. We already know he is as dishonest as the day is long. How could a jury believe anything he says?

  • SueInCa : Bourne I just want Rushbo to have had to clutch his heart this morning

  • SueInCa : Something not quite right in the head with Z

  • BourneID : Murph, did you read Sue’s question re Rush? Did you read the link I sent you? Interesting. Sue, one of our friends posted your question asking if anyone in law enforcement was going to talk to Rush. If the shooter did hear his message then,he said, Rush yelled fire in a croweded theater.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think Z really screwed up when he said he had no regrets. If convicted, the judge will surely ask him if he is remorseful.

  • AdLib : All the racism, xenophobia and hatred on the Right, such violent acts seem less extreme than they would otherwise.

  • SueInCa : The last one was Thomas Rooney with crazy Bachman

  • AdLib : Hey Bourne!

  • AlphaBitch : Ad: LOVE Lafayette. Grant St. Dance Hall, Whiskey River Landing in henderson, GREAT cafes, New Iberia. Had the very very best red beans and rice at Duffys in New Iberia. Want to meet at the International Music Festival next spring?

  • SueInCa : Did anyone see Bachbatshitcrazy man running away from Dana Bash yesterday? No AB I will find it and let you know

  • AlphaBitch : Steve King? Just guessing. Been lucky enough to be off the news cycle. waiting for my girl from Damascus to get here – everyone wish her luck. she is due on 7/30.

  • KillgoreTrout : What a scum bag!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sounds like the perfect “friend,” for Bachmann.

  • SueInCa : KT he is along with Westmoreland, Bachman and Franks. One other but I cannot remember his name

  • AdLib : AB – Only spent a little time there, more time in Baton Rouge.

  • AlphaBitch : KT This guy is such a buffoon. He will go along with others well.

  • KillgoreTrout : Bon Soir Bourne

  • SueInCa : AB it will come back they just called a truce

  • KillgoreTrout : I think Gohmert is one of the 5 legislators that called for Hillary’s secretary to be investigated.

  • SueInCa : Hi Bourne

  • AlphaBitch : Hey Sue. I’m just sad the news is off on tax returns. Release the Cracklins.

  • BourneID : AdLib

  • BourneID : Hi All

  • SueInCa : AB that is a refreshing picture

  • SueInCa : Advice of his attorney and how the attorney protects him. Grounds for appeal. Of course a judge can dismiss it as well

  • AlphaBitch : AL: Gohmert= Gomer. Remember that.

  • KillgoreTrout : That one really got me. God telling people to kill others?

  • AdLib : And of course the RW nut jobs like Gohmert see every tragedy as a reason to claim they are the real victi

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, really? I don’t think Miranda rights could apply to his volunteering to go on the show.

  • SueInCa : Another non christian claiming it was God’s Plan where do they get these people?

  • SueInCa : problem is KT Zimmerman can use his actions as an excuse for an appeal

  • KillgoreTrout : I guess anything Z said can be used as evidence. The little slug said he had no regrets. And he played oh so sorry for Trayvon’s parents. I don’t know what his attorney was thinking. My guess would be fame and money.

  • AlphaBitch : No, Bebe – I’m in Lafayette. Ate at the Blue Dog Cafe tonight. YUM.

  • SueInCa : This kid was smart though. The police had to detonate the apartment bang there goes the evidence

  • AdLib : Hey AB! Where in LA are you, north of NO?

  • KillgoreTrout : AdLib, that’s unfortunately true.

  • SueInCa : KT who knows his choice of representation is not the best

  • KillgoreTrout : I can believe the stupidity of Z wanting to go on FOX, but what the hell was his attorney thinking?

  • SueInCa : No KT he spelled Sue wrong

  • AdLib : His mom probably knew he was messed up but what could she do? He’s an adult, she couldn’t make him have treatment or take medication.

  • AlphaBitch : Beignet, KT? i’m on the netbook and have to scroll up and down, so mainly I’m just lurky looing tonight w/ my pal D’nan, who will make a identity tonight.

  • SueInCa : AB Aloha Hoaloha

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, in da house!

  • SueInCa : Adlib there is just something delicious in thinking Rush may have almost had a heart attack this morning. I would never wish this tragedy on anyone but after all his rhetoric this week……

  • AlphaBitch : Bon soir, mes amis! Here in LA in a terrific thunderstorm. Excaped (or ex-caped) NOLA, which was flooding horribly. how goes it here?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, the mother said she knew about this plan?

  • AdLib : She – Since this psycho had been preparing this for months, it looks like it was his plan all alone

  • SueInCa : Wow some people like Zimmerman never know when to STFU

  • KillgoreTrout : Yes, according to one article I read. It may be BS, but that’s what I read.

  • SueInCa : She did? Even if I knew that I would never say it.

  • KillgoreTrout : I find it interesting that when his mother was told about it, she said, “You’ve got the right guy!” What did she know prior to this horrible event?

  • AdLib : One thing I don’t like is all the hypothesizing by talking heads about a killer they know nothing about.

  • SueInCa : Pretty much KT. They wanted the house and money for themselves. The mother had let him live there

  • SueInCa : Ok I am going to say it. Did this kid listen to Rush? Was HE a dittohead? What did Rush have to say for himself today? Did he take and oxycontin and STFU?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ah, the old “would you kill for me,” line!

  • SueInCa : She said he was a very mixed up young man. A loner and sickly in love with the girl

  • KillgoreTrout : AdLib, you may be right. Maybe he was just being a smart ass. The guy definitely has a screw loose.

  • AdLib : Hey Sue!

  • AdLib : KT – I don’t think he thought he was the Joker though he wanted to act like him.

  • KillgoreTrout : What did he have to say about those two killers?

  • SueInCa : KT my best friend was the psychologist for the kid who helped his girlfriend murder her mother in Folsom CA

  • SueInCa : Hey KT Sally I see you

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Sue!

  • SueInCa : Hola mi amigos yes KT you are right. OH sorry Adlib Aloha Hoaloha

  • KillgoreTrout : He told police he was “The Joker.” I don’t know if he really believes that or not. I guess his mental condition will be assessed in the near future.

  • AdLib : KT – That’s what I always say about the murder-suicides, why can’t they do the suicide first? This guy though is mentally ill and seems to have done it for the infamy, wanting to bask in it the ret of his life.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ciao! Another sorry day in American history. Too bad these psychos just can’t take themselves out and leave others alone.

  • AdLib : Don’t forget to say “Aloha” when you arrive.

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. See you then…

Categories: Vox Populi Archives

Written by AdLib

My motto is, "It is better to have blogged and lost hours of your day, than never to have blogged at all."

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