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SueInCa On May - 5 - 2012

This is a re-post of an article I posted to God’s Own Party website.  For this posting I have added information I found after the original post and I have also re-written some portions.  With the exception of new information discovered after the original posting, all information remains the same.  I went to some dark places the day I was researching all of this and had a strange dream that night.  These people just keep multiplying their organizations.

A few months ago I decided to get up very early on a Sunday morning to view a relatively new program on MSNBC, Up With Chris Hayes.  I had seen Chris in various political pundit situations and was somewhat impressed with his quiet way of speaking the truth so I was curious to see what his show was all about.  For the most part the discussion was pretty general about politics and the coming election.  Then the subject changed to Latinos and their role in the coming election.  Chris Hayes had invited Pastor Samuel Rodriguez to participate in the discussion.   Knowing what I know about Dominionists I immediately perked up.  First of all, how did Chris Hayes find this guy?  Did he do any back-check on the man at all, or did he just see the title, National Hispanic Chrisitian Leadership Conference(NHCLC), and go all out?  I listened to the conversation and Mr. Rodgriguez does make for a good conversationalist, however I was struck at how one can be lulled into thinking a person (who would not know anything about Rodriguez) could think, hey, this guy is representing Latinos and the issues they have with the GOP obvious disdain for them.

Unfortunately for Chris Hayes I knew who Rodriguez is and I was disturbed that he would produce this man as some harmless Latino pastor.  Any google search would have proven to Hayes there was more to this guy than NHCLC.  By not vetting this guy completely, he left his public and his guests with the impression Rodriguez spoke for a majority of Christian Latinos.  I don’t usually do this, but I wrote Chris Hayes an email explaining my disappointment of his lack of vetting which should be expected from any “journalist.” Validating his guests should be the least he does prior to introducing them.  I told him how he deceived his audience by portraying this guy as some social justice warrior for Latinos purportedly based on the name of his organization.  Hayes never responded to my email.  I guess he was not concerned that I might relay my experience to others who now may question his due diligence as well.

So you might be wondering why Samuel Rodriguez might warrant such a spirited response from me and it is because he is involved in The Oak Initiative.  The Oak Initiative is really just another dimension of the myriad groups of followers of C Peter Wagner of the 7 Mountains Mandate.  To be quite honest, I seriously doubt that a majority of Latinos have never heard of this organization, but rather are familiar with him in his role with the NHCLC and you may not either so I will tell you about the Oak Initiative.

You can best understand who they are by knowing what their purpose is although intentionally they will describe themselves as pretty bland.  Only by knowing their background would one know their true purpose:  To dominate all the nations of the world for Jesus Christ.  The following is their purpose statement, but make no mistake it falls under the umbrella of the 7 Mountains mandate:

“Our Purpose

America is in crisis, possibly the greatest threat to its continued existence yet. However, we can do something about it, and that is the Purpose of The Oak Initiative.

Along with a political and spiritual shift we find our self in need of a shift in our core values and there are signs that this shift is happening. Unlike many other groups, our goal is to see the development of leaders and leadership skills in our members so that along with a shift in the spirit of America, we are ready to champion the core values that are based on biblical or kingdom principles and wisdom. Then it will be the blend of a spiritual awakening with sound wisdom that will lay a foundation for lasting results…

For us, it is not simply about measuring, evaluating, or responding to the change around us but rather being change-agents and facilitating change in every aspect of our culture as we, the Oak Initiative, become infused into the areas of social, cultural, and political impact wherever we find ourselves….

For us, it is not just about less taxes, correction in government spending, large or small government, liberal or conservative agendas, or correcting the balance of power in our legislative branches at local, state, and federal levels….

For us, it is about awaking our people to the voice of our Founding Fathers recorded in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. It’s about bringing wisdom, which we have gained from our personal relationship with the Lord and study of His word, into the market place at every level of social, cultural, and political expression.

Our goals will not have been accomplished when we simply provide solutions that impact today’s problems but will only be accomplished when we have been a part of a spiritual awakening that lays a foundation for course correction in the future of America.

For us, it is not just a voting ballot or a single set of issues – it’s about being a part of an historical shift in a nation that is called to a destiny by God to disciple other nations…

We are The Oak Initiative

So, there you have it, they are in the business of bringing lasting change to America/The World and only a biblical resolution will be the successful conclusion of that change.  They named themselves as a result of their interpretation of Isiah 61:3:

“and provide for those who grieve in Zion—to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair.  They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the Lord for the display of his splendor.’

According to Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible:

“that they might be called trees of righteousness; that is, that the mourners in Zion, having all these things done for them, and bestowed on them, might be called, or be, or appear to be, like “trees” that are well planted; whose root is in Christ, whose sap is the Spirit and his grace, and whose fruit are good works; and that they might appear to be good trees, and of a good growth and stature, and be laden with the fruits of righteousness, and be truly righteous persons, made so by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to them: “the planting of the Lord”; planted by him in Christ, and in his church, and so never to be rooted out”

In actuality, all they really did is search the Bible for a verse that would fit their agenda and then take up that mantle, I doubt God spoke to them and offered it to them. These are their stated beliefs in a nutshell:

“They believe in charity, but only at the local/non-government level.
They claim they want to defend individual freedom but hold “Awakenings” around the nation to turn Muslims to Christ and that freedom is based upon eternal law that God is sovereign and grants all rights.
They claim to defend political freedom but their website is geared toward Republican voters.
They will establish, maintain and defend religious liberty and challenge attempts to inhibit such liberty
Their conviction is that the development of the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States were guided by biblical principles and morality. These are the basis of legitimate government of the United States, and any who seek to void or circumvent these must be opposed.
The (claim) to seek resolutions for healing moral offenses, prejudices and justice(except if you are a Muslim so their all does not really mean all)
They are pro-life except when the state decides to kill someone
And they are guided by The Lausanne Covenant (you can read about this covenant at http://www.lausanne.org/covenant)”

“The Church must be in the world; the world must not be in the Church.”  I found that statement in one section of The Lausanne Covenant and thought it rather strange.  To me it means, no matter what they do in the world, the world will never be able to enter their realm.  Perhaps that is somewhat simplistic but knowing these people I just thought it strange for them to claim dominion over the world but tell the world “you have no say in what we do.”

So, who are these people?  If you have followed the Dominionist movement you will recognize their names.  They do not list Samuel Rodriguez on the website any longer but there is also a reason for that.  He was questioned by Faith2Action – Rachel Tabachnick and he claimed he did not belong.  She questioned why he was named as a VP on their site and they promptly removed his name.  She had gotten a screen capture and confronted them again at which time both Rodriguez and Rick Joyner assured Rachel he was leaving the group.  Sure he did, but of course he did not, he just took on another role as a steering committee member and attended their recent “Awakening 2012” as a speaker.  So that would bolster my discomfort with his original appearance on Up With Chris Hayes.  But to continue, sometimes even if you have followed them, new names will still pop up, as it did for me. I will add comments below but I urge you to read their full bios, there are some surprises there, like no religious background asserted?  So who else is involved?  Read on:

Chairman: Marc Nuttle is an attorney, based in Norman, Oklahoma, who represents corporations, business projects and political entities nationally and internationally.  He is managing partner of Oklahoma Sovereign Development, LLC (OSD), an Oklahoma based industrial development company.

They make no mention of his religious leanings but this man is well versed in political campaigns.  Of course, being the defenders of political rights that they are, he has only helped Republican candidates.

President: Rick Joyner is the Founder, and Executive Director of MorningStar Ministries, which includes MorningStar University, and The MorningStar Fellowship of Churches, as well as Heritage International Ministries, the restored Heritage USA Grand Hotel and Conference Center. He is the author of more than 30 books, including The Final Quest Trilogy, There Were Two Trees in the Garden, and his latest, I See A New America. Rick and his wife, Julie, live in South Carolina with their five children: Anna, Aaryn, Amber, Ben and Sam.

He also believes that Sarah Palin was anointed to be the leader of our “great nation” and that her turn would come.  Of course if that failed he has Michelle Bachmann waiting in the wings.  Sadly, this year, that failed as well.

Lt.Gen. (U.S. Army Ret.) W.G. “Jerry” Boykin was one of the elite warriors chosen in 1978 to make up the first unit in America’s ultra-secretive and deadly Delta Force. He then became commander of the unit, and later still, commander of all U.S. Army Special Forces. His thirty-six years in the military included a tour at the Central Intelligence Agency and clandestine missions around the world. Jerry retired in 2007, serving his last four years as the deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence.

Don’t let the intelligence function fool you, this man is more delusional than Dick Cheney or George Bush, in fact even George Bush had to reprimand him for describing military efforts as a holy war against Islam while in uniform.  As a matter of fact Boykin has all sorts of conspiracy theories he is more than happy to expound on to anyone who will listen.  Sadly, many do.  Boykin is also a member of the Knights of Malta, a Catholic organization seen by some as a dangerous group.  I will include some links below written by people who have done research on them.  Some claim Catholics, Mormons and Evangelicals have all joined together in the United States because of their joint hatred of Islam.  Also surprise Boykin supported Rick Santorum

Why Boykin supported Rick Santorum
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/organizations/oak-initiative

Bishop Larry Jackson is the founding pastor of Bethel Outreach International Church in Charlotte, NC.  He currently serves as a regional bishop for the Fellowship of International Churches (Bishop Wellington Boone, Founder and National Bishop) in the southeastern region of the United States and the Vice President of Strategic Planning.

Bishop Jackson is one of their media people, he has founded Shachah Records, a newly formed Christian record label; Kindgom Writers and Music Association, established to facilitate the advancement of new and independent artists while at the same time serving as a vehicle to unite them; and Kingdom Distribution Network, a distribution company that distributes Christian products directly to the public.

Cindy Jacobs is a respected prophet who travels the world ministering not only to crowds of people, but to heads of nations.  Perhaps her greatest ministry is to world influencers who seek her prophetic advice. She and her husband Mike have founded Generals International. The heart and mission of Generals International is to bring Godly transformation to the societies and nations of the world through intercession and the prophetic. More…

Cindy Jacobs is a longstanding member of the 7 Mountains organization.  She specializes in prophetic intercession. The ministry, now known as Generals International, was founded as Generals of Intercession.  Intercession is still a major thrust of the ministry as they have “generals” around the world who are starting prayer networks in regions such as Central Asia and Turkey.  Here he is attending an Knights of Malta event with Jerry Boykin(in fact he brought Boykin in to the group) H.S.H. Nicholas F.S. Papanicolaou GB.GCSJ(H)

Nicholas F. Papanicolaou was born in 1949 in Athens, Greece.
He was educated at Williston Academy, Easthampton, MA where he graduated cum laude in 1967. He then earned a Bachelor’s degree in Economics at Harvard University from where he graduated with advanced placement in 1970, and a Master’s degree in Business Administration from Columbia University in 1972.

Nicholas’s father, Georgious, discovered the Pap Smear, unfortunately Nicholas has pursued a far darker path than his esteemed father.  Nicholas is a Grand Master in the Knights of Malta with a title of H.S.H. Nicholas F.S. Papanicolaou GB.GCSJ(H).  I searched the net for a wiki on him and found nothing.  Strange since he is an active member in the Oak Iniative.  There appears to be a dark connection between Nicholas and Boynkin, both are in the Order of Malta and both are virulently against Islam.  Here he is attending a Knights of Malta event with Jerry Boykin(in fact he brought Boykin in to the group) Pics are in the Gallery.  http://www.theknightshospitallers.org/leadership

Rev. Lou P. Sheldon is Chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition, a lobby organization representing churches and the grassroots that works to preserve the Judeo-Christian ethics upon which America was founded. The Traditional Values Coalition, founded in 1980 by Rev. Sheldon, speaks on behalf of more than 43,000 churches across the United States regarding pro-family legislation and policy. With an emphasis on the restoration of the values necessary to maintain strong, unified families, TVC focuses on such issues as religious liberty, marriage, the right to life, the homosexual agenda, pornography, family tax relief and education. He is a familiar face and voice for the family before the U.S. Congress and the White House.

At first I did not recognize this man but when I read his full bio, I immediately recognized him and changed his name above from Louis to Lou.  This is Lou in a nutshell:

“A strong voice of the traditional values that have been the foundation of America’s greatness is essential if we are to have good government policy. We need to have these values expressed and no organization does that better in Congress than Traditional Values Coalition”
– John Ashcroft, Former United States Attorney General

Enough said about Sheldon.  He is there to lobby Congress and if Ashcroft thinks he is special, you know he is batshitcrazy when it comes to strict religious beliefs.  Ashcroft is the AG who went around DOJ covering the naked statues.

Bob Weiner was moved by God to found Maranatha Churches and Campus Ministries, now with locations on 150 campuses in 20 nations.  During the last 10 years, Bob trained 50,000 youth in Russia for ministry and covered all the training expenses for them.  God multiplied this ministry, and today many hundreds of thousands of youth have been saved, established in churches and cell groups by the thousands.

Weiner’s ministry in the 70’s and 80’ recruited young people mainly on college campuses.  It was reported to be a cult-like ministry with an authoritarian hierarchy where the individual was taught not to think individually but in groupspeak. Weiner’s main targets were the best and brightest on campus. Members were told to work hard, get the best grades, and look as good as you could in order to rise in the economic and political ladders of success to be next to influence decision-makers.  The Christian Research Institute said of Maranatha Ministries, “Until we have clearer understanding of the changes which MCM claims are being implemented, and until we see more discernible evidence of change in the lives of people being impacted by MCM, we would not recommend this organization to anyone.”

You can read for yourself all about Maranatha Ministries at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maranatha_Campus_Ministries but I find it strange that Weiner once issued an apology for his work with the ministry and now is right back in the mix.  I guess I should not be surprised.

Ardell “Danny” Daniels is an apostle and oversees Spoken Word Ministries with his wife, Kimberly Daniels, in Jacksonville, Florida. Together they travel the globe touching lives for Jesus. They have six lovely children that range from the ages of 11 to 30. Ardell is an ex-drug dealer and addict.  God has miraculously transformed and raised him up for the last days.

Not much is written on Ardell but Kimberly Daniels uses her strength and determination for another purpose. She’s known as the Demon Buster, the leader of a small army of deliverance ministers who are exercising spiritual authority through prayer to confront demons of drug addiction, violence and witchcraft in their community in Florida.

Janet L. (Folger) Porter is the President and Founder of Faith2Action – turning people of faith into people of action to WIN the cultural war TOGETHER for life, liberty and the family. She reports from the front lines of the cultural war on her nationally syndicated daily program, Faith2Action with Janet Folger, from 2:00-3:00 p.m. EST (heard on the VCY, REACH FM (Calvary Chapel), Bott Radio, National Pro-life Radio, and Christian Worldview Networks, as well as individual stations throughout the Midwest).  She also hosts a 60-second daily radio commentary which airs on more than 100 stations and at www.F2A.org.

“When the killing stops Operation Rescue and Troy Newman will be among the first to receive our thanks.” Janet Folger Porter.  Enough said about Porter.

Dr. Lance Wallnau  has been described by People For The American Way as the hidden architect behind the increasingly viral and politically potent seven mountain template for cultural impact. From forums at Harvard, to work with the United Nations, and training and serving on Ken Blanchard’s board, Lance has taught and shaped the contemporary worldview and strategy of leaders on a global level. Taking ideas rooted in the life labors of Abraham Kuyper, Francis Shaeffer, Lorren Cunningham and Bill Bright, Lance has reinvigorated and updated their relevance to a new generation of leaders wrestling with the complex business of societal transformation. For this reason Lance’s network spans a diversity of nations and spheres of influence including artists, business leaders, government officials and Universities.

All you really have to do is look at how his ideas were influenced and you know enough about him as well.  There are numerous pieces written about Wallnau on the internet and in order to give my son an idea about this movement I actually bought one of his books.  My son was getting involved in a “dominionist” church and now he has moved on.  Wallnau is bad news.

Dr. Negiel Bigpond  has been in ministry for over thirty years and has been both evangelist and pastor, evangelizing in over 143 native reservations and currently serves as Apostle of Morning Star Church of All Nations. He is an accomplished musician and singer and is also a certified drug and alcohol abuse counselor. Dr. Bigpond is a full-blood Euchee (Yuchi) Indian and a fourth generation minister of the gospel. He and his wife Jan have been married for 39 years and have 3 children, 2 sons-in-law, 1 daughter-in-law, and 6 grandchildren.

You can read more about Dr. Bigpond here:  http://www.sonstoglory.com/RoyMoore.htm

Thomas Hall  has worked for Lou Engle, the founder and visionary for TheCall and TheCall to Conscience.   TheCall is a ministry that has filled stadiums with youth crying out for the nation and for the ending of abortion, for seven years.  TheCall is divinely initiated by God and is multi-racial, multi-generational, and cross-denominational. On September 2, 2000, 400,000 youth gathered together to fast and pray for America. Since the year 2000 TheCall has touched hundreds of thousands of people all over the world through the power of prayer and fasting.

Thomas started his own company called Hall & Brown Associates, which offers event management, event production, marketing, etc.  With this company he is actively working with many organizations in the Political and Christian sectors to help mobilize young people across the nation.  How convenient for the Initiative right?

The basic strategy of The Oak Initiative according to them is to be a grassroots movement but I have to ask how can you claim grassroots with so many people who are have influence in high places in the Catholic Church or the Dominionist movement?  They claim they will find and help develop principled and effective Christian leaders who can mobilize and organize a cohesive force of activated Christians.  According to their website:

“These will be called to work on every level where government is found, from the most local to state and national levels.”

Believing our strategy will only be effective to the degree that we have leaders and active members who are the most informed and best trained possible, a basic purpose of The Oak Initiative will be the development and dissemination of resources for the purpose of constantly increasing knowledge and upgrading skills to be effective citizens.

Action plans of The Oak Initiative may include everything from community service, promoting commerce, disaster response, as well as the evaluation, proposing, and when necessary, the challenging of government legislation and/or actions that are deemed immoral or hurtful.

The Oak Institute is being developed to raise up effective leaders for all of the dominant areas of influence in the culture, including: government, business, education, arts and entertainment, family services, media, and the church.

The Oak Initiative will help mobilize for and work with other organizations that share our common goals and values.”

 

If you doubt their purpose, then you have not been paying attention.  We have heard so much lately about these groups and their works, usually not in a good way.  What can appear to be innocent activity with these people is always not the case.

This info touches at the edges of the group and their activities.  Perusing the web you will find much darker information.

 

Identifies Rodriguez as a speaker and a steering committee member

http://freedomfederation.org/content/awakening_2012_speakers3

The Oak Initiative

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/organizations/oak-initiatThe Oak ive

Samuel Rodriguez

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/9/2/133338/8422

Samuel Rodriguez Claim to have left Oak Initiative

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/9/21/01935/7353

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Samuel-Rodriguez-Extremism-and-the-Oak-Initiative-Greg-Metzger-09-14-2011-

Samuel Rodriguez – Washington Post – His story has now changed since he hooked up with the Oak Iniative

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/samuel_rodriguez/2008/04/parsley_islam_mccain_and_21st.html

Note:  On the Greg Metzger blog I sent him an email showing Rodriguez was now a steering committee member and was attending “The Awakening 2012” as a speaker.  He asked for clarification and I provided it.  I do not know if he has done an update but will peruse his site at a later date.

Written by SueInCa

I am a soon to be 59 Nana to Anthony who is 11. I live in Benicia CA with my husband and Shih Tsu. I worked in Banking and the Financial Industry for 24 years in Fraud, Risk Management, Account Management, Program Management, Project Management and Customer Service. I was a Fraud Investigator for Credit Card and Merchant Business and investigated internal fraud and responded to Bank robberies. I was also management in most of these positions. Now I am content to find a part time job where I am just a worker bee, no more corporate BS for this gal. I also make jewelry. I can spend hours in a bead shop just touching all the fine baubles. Only another beader would understand that one.

25 Responses so far.

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  1. Katzmad says:

    Dear Sue, super article! And, I need to say that Boykin’s Knights of Malta aren’t Roman Catholic Knights of Malta. I surfed here following links on the Dominionists and Papanicolaou. First I had read this article at the Huffington Post, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/pentagon-leaders-met-with_b_4037505.html… mostly because I notice the Dominionists, they irk me, and came across Mikey Weinstein who is an attorney defending religious freedom in the military, his organization is the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, his clients have trouble with the Dominionist faction. Ret. Gen. Boykin and his buddies started the “Restore Military Freedom Coalition” because they don’t like Mikey calling them out on their bullying…Scary this week, on Rick Joyner the Prophet who begged the Lord for Martial Law in the United States and then more scary seeing his close association with Ret. Gen Boykin, as you said above, and I looked up the Oak Initiative too, and then coming across the same information you did The Knights of Malta being mentioned with Boykin and Papanicolaou, but I was immediately suspicious, because tricking people is their game, and anyway,I’m an old Catholic and there are no Catholic clergy on their website, it’s very floofy, and has lots of “stuff”, but It’s not the Roman Catholic Knights of Malta… These guys made up their own club, just see this letter on their own website: http://theknightshospitallers.org/letter-prince-grand-master, fourth paragraph down; The Vatican sued them for false pretenses or something or other. The Wikipedia article on the Knights of Malta even mentions how there are faux orgs spinning off the name. They are tricksters of the nth degree, they do the smoke and mirror thing. Back to the scary thing, according to Mikey Weinstein, the Dominionists do have lots of personnel in the military, and many of his clients, 95% the wrong kind of Christian, say that the Dominionists are “gleeful” regarding the “End Times”… Government Shutdown, hungry, homeless out of work populace + the ready willing and able off the wall crazies.

    • SueInCa says:

      Wow Katzmad, you sure know a great deal about them too. I wrote this last year and have forgotten some of the Knights of Malta stuff I saw but instinctively this group, to me, sounded evil. It is always nice to meet up with a person who is so educated on this faction of “religious right orgs”. Scroll down and you will see the dream I had the night after perusing that website. Thanks for your comments and especially explaining the difference in the Knights and the Catholic Church.

      Again, thanks for your comments. It is nice to know that an article written last year can still be read over and over.

  2. MurphTheSurf3 says:

    SueinCA….hey….I have read this post twice now and have been trying to formulate a question re. the RC Church…it kept eluding me. I think I have it now.

    RCC participation in the Dominionist Movement seems to be difficult to pin down. I see references to lay people who are members of pious associations and walk the Dominionist walk BUT the RCC is a hierarchical and dogmatic institution. It has a very well established pecking order and a body of belief that has been canonized.

    Where and how does that Order and that Dogmatic Canon fit into the movement? Are you suggesting there is lay fifth column at work trying to subvert the anointed/appointed/ordained/consecrated leadership and to make the revealed dogma fit its own dogma? Or is the appointed leadership using these lay persons as fronts for its the dominionist ideology.

    • SueInCa says:

      Murph

      I am not sure what you are referring to as RCC. If it is Catholic Church they are working with the RR on issues they both agree on. They(RR and CNP) are also working with Mormons, Unification Church*Sung Moon and Scientology because of their hate for Islam they have that in common.

      The purpose of their organization(s) is exactly what you expressed. Keep people confused and like Ralph Reed said “I travel at night, you will never see me”.

  3. jjgravitas says:

    I fear we will never find any real solutions to humanity’s problems until we are able to completely dig ourselves out from under the thumb of the organized religions … Christianity (all versions), Islam (all versions), just to name the main trouble-makers. Two things to keep in mind: 1) you don’t need religion to be in touch with your spirituality (the two are not synonymous), and 2) God doesn’t need us. It really is no wonder that religion is compared to a drug, i.e. the “opiate for the masses”. The real wonder is that anyone would believe that you can really fix the world’s problems with religion. These religious leaders just expect their “flock” to completely buy into their ideas and then slice and sand off everything else that doesn’t fit in with their ideas. Do that and you’ll be “saved”, “at peace”. That works because you no longer have all those annoying “gray areas” to trouble you. But you won’t understand the world any more because you are only seeing it through the filter of religious dogma. (That’s a great word, “dogma”. Sounds exactly like what it is.) This idea, that anyone thinks they can fix the world by converting it, would be laughable if it weren’t so tragically pathetic.
    It’s no wonder that religious leaders refer to their followers as “sheep”, i.e. the “flock”.

  4. Excellent work Sue a true keeper with lots of insight and info.

    Could you please clarify one point for me. In the past I have used the term ‘Dominionist’ and ‘Christianist’ interchangeable but alas I think I am being inaccurate based on your articles and articles I read on Christianists by Andrew Sullivan. While some of the goals and definitely the mindsets of the Dominionists and Christianists overlap it seems the Dominionists are more dangerous because their goals are more extreme and concise the way I understand it now.

    What is your opinion about the differences and similarities between both factions?

    • SueInCa says:

      Kquark

      I thought about your question and I think the basic answer is that some call them christianists, christofacists, dominionists. The correct name is Dominionists. You can identify them by their Islamophobia, Attacking public schools and replacing with Charter or home schooling, very few are Democrats(I would venture to say none except for the sheep(flock) that follow the leaders). They believe in creationism, they will repeat the talking points and they will talk about signs and wonders or transformation. They believe in intercessory prayer(prayer warriors) and they will act somewhat spacy (bachmann/palin) because they have been indoctrinated by the cult for many years. They can be many denominations and when I look at websites I look for what they believe in overall. It is amazingly easy to spot them because at least one or two of the above elements will be discussed on their sites.

      People who are not familiar will think it odd but not generally offensive. They just don’t look further until they are so entrenched and it is hard to get out. They are a cult and they are working with many groups. They have even allowed a faction of the mormon religion because I think they see the wealth and their influence around the world. CL might be able to pin it down a bit further. She has way more experience than I do.

    • SueInCa says:

      KQ

      I think CL will agree with me they are all interchangable. I am going to work on a piece about the CPN and it clearly shows they are working with Dominionists, Mormons and Catholics. It is kind of hard to discern but what I do is take a look at their websites. See how they portray themselves. Usually on the right they are going to intermix because it is more important to get rid of us secular humanists than to fight among themselves.
      I have not read a great deal on Sullivan but I will peruse some tomorrow and see if I can give a better idea. I think he is catholic, right?

      • choicelady says:

        I do indeed agree, Sue. My preference for Dominionists is the conspicuous absence of Christian ideals. They are NOT “Christianists” save in self generated labels and in fact repudiate most of what Jesus taught. I’ve mentioned before that if you listen to their rant, they are Old Testamentarians at heart, hewing to the tribal laws and ignoring or even repudiating Jesus’ directions on how to “love thy neighbor as thyself.” For them, Jesus is the “get out of jail free” card -- the spoken devotion that is to save them from hell. But because they follow NONE of the teachings or the principles Jesus espoused, if there IS a hell, that’s not gonna work.

        Calling them “Christianists” gives them way too much credit. They are not Christian at all. It’s just a label, not a belief, and it should not be given any legitimacy since they covet power over, not grace and love among, us all.

  5. Nirek says:

    I happen to believe in Christ, but NOT everything the bible says. After all the bible was written by human beings and interpreted and rewritten and reinterpreted by other human beings all of which are and were fallible (imperfect). I say let those who think differently about God do so. If you don’t believe in God that is your choice. I am not going to try to change your mind nor will I push my beliefs on you or any other person.

    That is what the religious (right) tries to do. Force everyone to believe as they do. It doesn’t matter if that religious (right ) is Christian or Muslim or any other religion, trying to change others is not any ones business.IMO!

    Live and let live. Live within our laws and if the laws are wrong , lets change them.

    • Exactly, great points.

      I think you have religion which includes the literal interpretation of the bible and Christ’s teachings as a subset of most Christian religions. In fact Isaac Newton went so far as to rewrite the bible in an attempt to separate the two and focus on Christ’s teachings.

      Far right religious groups are based very little on Christ’s teachings in fundamental ways. The biggest way being that groups like the Dominionists do not even prescribe to the golden rule. For example they only treat people like they would treat themselves if they believe what they believe and look down on all others.

      Anther fundamental difference is how they spread the word of Christ. Christ wanted to enlighten people NOT conquer people to follow his beliefs. Ergo the big difference is Christ wanted to give people a choice where groups like the Dominionists want to force their choice on everyone. Of course if you do not follow the Dominionists they automatically think you are damned whether you have lived a good life or not.

      • SueInCa says:

        You know KQ I had a dream after researching all of this and maybe my dream is an interpretation of exactly what you are referring to. In case you did not see it, here is the recap.

        I dreamed I was in Texas with some family I was helping to avoid the religious freaks and we were walking downtown. I heard a huge roar and I ducked into a doorway pulling them with me. We watched a huge wall of water come roaring down the street taking all the religious freaks with it.(don’t ask me how we escaped it was a dream) Then as we were walking back to their home the southern sky opened up and there was an orange/pink sky with gray clouds all around it. Then Jesus appeared and he smiled at us, waved and disappeared.

        Weird huh?

      • Nirek says:

        KQ, the “Golden Rule” is the best way in my opinion.
        Think how well it would work if everyone were to follow that one rule. Simple and to the point. No shades of gray. I try hard to follow it.

        I find many politicians to be hypocrites when it comes to the “Golden Rule”. Especially republicans.

        • choicelady says:

          Nirek -- that is all it amounts to. Two commandments -- love God (however you conceive him/her/it) and love thy neighbor as theyself.

          It was never meant to be more than that.

          Jesus had no rules -- he had teachings based on questions of significant complexity -- but no rules other than those two. The Golden Rule is the subset of the second. A different way to phrase it.

          And whether the religious right likes it or not, ALL faiths and belief systems, including secular humanism, embrace the Golden Rule.

          There is nothing more to be said. You are quite right about that.

    • SueInCa says:

      Nirek
      That is how I live, live and let live but when someone is trying to push their beliefs on the world I would be remiss if I did not speak out.

      Don’t ever let the RR hear you say the Bible is not correct, they believe it is literal. The fact that there are so many versions in the same language blows that theory out of the water. Not to mention the different interpretations over the years. It really is a book of stories how do any of us know those people were not loonies forcing their ideas with claims of meetings with God?

      • Nirek says:

        Sue, that’s why I’m not a good Catholic. I believe in Christ but not the literal interpretation of the bible. The bible is merely a guide.

        • SueInCa says:

          We are pretty much on the same page. I believe there was a man named Jesus but I wonder if the story went down like they say. I guess I have to trust some of it because of the historical findings but it always comes back to translation for me. Of course if I saw the ancient books I would not be able to translate I would have to rely on someone else so I guess it is a matter of trust all the way around.

          I think my distrust is mainly from what I have seen up close and personal from these supposed Christians.

  6. choicelady says:

    Sue- GREAT article again as always!

    You know what lies behind my comments. All I can say is OMG!! Every day this gets worse, and every day they find new ways to cast themselves as mainstream people.

    For Chris Hayes to be THAT ignorant, THAT unprofessional, THAT careless is one of the things that helps these people flourish. We’ve had to write MSNBC before asking them to stop giving air time to extremists under the guise of mainstream commentary -- it’s ignorance and disbelief that makes liberals and even progressives DISMISS how important these people are. The only commentator who consistently pays attention is Rachel Maddow, and I am hoping Melissa Harris-Perry does the same.

    Chris needs to open his eyes. One of his colleagues at The Nation has had terrifying personal engagement with the Dominionists. Eyal Press, whose father is the last provider of abortions in Buffalo, NY, suffered through the horrors of the 1998 assassination of the other provider, Bart Slepian, and the threats to the Press family for months thereafter. Eyal KNOWS how dangerous these people are. Chris has to take notice NOW.

    And we need to know that they can be found in very weird places. A couple of months ago I encounterd a man who is deeply involved in growing and distributing marijuana and who therefore hates the DEA and US Attorney with a vengeance. He verbally accosted our US Attorney as a “Nuremberg human rights criminal” over the raids that were occuring NOT to legitimate medical dispensaries but to those that increasingly were being used as fronts for dealings with international drug cartels and that also, not so coincidentally, were jacking the price of medical help by over 200%.

    On the way out of the meeting, I was in the same elevator with the angry man and his equally angry friend both of whom were grumbling still about the federal crack down. I said why did they not work to change the laws, which led to a tirade against law per se and an assertion that “nullification” was essential in America.

    My hackles went up because “nullification” is a key RW extremist policy dismissing the authority of ALL LAW and is a centerpiece in the “sovereign citizens” movement comprised of militia folks and the Tim McVeighs of the world many of whom are very present in CA’s central valley. Nullification is also taught as a core Dominionist “legal” principle at Pat Robertson’s Regent University Law School. If all laws you don’t like can be “nullified” by juries and other means, then Biblical law can triumph.

    Hearing that, I just shook my head and turned to walk away -- and the man, now for some reason totally enraged, followed me into a public square screaming, “you are a hateful person and you are going to DIE!!! God (something something)…” after which he was yanked back inside by his friend.

    So here we have a Dominionist Sovereign Citizen marijuana grower and seller. When you find them at that level of society, in places you’d otherwise not expect, you know they are freaking everywhere. News commentators have GOT to stop treating these people as either aberrations or part of the mainstream. They are dangerous and willing to do whatever it takes to get their way. ANYTHING to get their way.

    • SueInCa says:

      CL
      I could not agree with you more. I knew the marijuana busts had to do with something more than just medical dispensaries. I have only been following these people for a few years and they drive me nuts, you must be ready for Bellvue by now.

      Knowing RWers are into the pot growing now I am totally against legalization LOL. Just kidding but I wish they would get busted more often.

      BTW the night after I had been doing this research I had a really weird dream.

      I dreamed I was in Texas with some family I was helping to avoid the religious freaks and we were walking downtown. I heard a huge roar and I ducked into a doorway pulling them with me. We watched a huge wall of water come roaring down the street taking all the religious freaks with it.(don’t ask me how we escaped it was a dream) Then as we were walking back to their home the southern sky opened up and there was an orange/pink sky with gray clouds all around it. Then Jesus appeared and he smiled at us, waved and disappeared.

      Weird huh?

      • kesmarn says:

        BFF, just had to duck in here for a few minutes before work and let you know how much I loved your dream description! What a dramatic and — really — hopeful visual image that was!

        Haven’t had a chance to read your article yet, but as soon as the graduation/work activities ease off around here, I’ll dive in!

        • SueInCa says:

          Hey BFF I was wondering we seem to keep missing each other. No problem this is a long one that deserves all your attention. No I am not conceited :-)

      • choicelady says:

        Kinda cool dream! I really wish those who think Jesus is coming back with an AK-47 would just get washed away or made to think over their arrogance and devotion to a fear-based “religion”.

        I watch these folks work so hard to “make” prophecies they believe come true. That’s what Hitler did -- his family name was Schickelgruber, but he embraced a distant set of relatives named Hitler because he believed it meant he’d fulfill Nostradamus’ prophecy that a man named “Hissler” would build the 1000-year Reich. Well -- look how well THAT turned out? Thirteen violent and brutal years, then his own death in a forlorn bunker.

        Moral to the story -- if you do believe in prophecy, don’t mix in.

        These Dominionist folks mis-read Revelations, made up several “goals” that they argue God demands before the Second Coming, and now are building an entire global movement based on fulfilling the prophecy. They, anti-science though they are, are using cloning to generate the “red heifer” -- one with no more then 3 white hairs -- as part of that fulfillment. C’mon -- get real.

        It shows how very little faith they have and how deeply political their “beliefs” really are. That they would lie, cheat, steal, kill to fulfill prophecy makes them NO different from Adolph Schickelgruber. And that’s what makes them so dangerous.

        • SueInCa says:

          CL
          Tony was watching some program on the history channel on the red heiffer. When I explained it to him he just shook his head and laughed.


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