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SueInCa On December - 29 - 2011

 

Here I am again with another installment of Coalition of Church and State, and yes, some people might think I am a fanatic on the other end of the spectrum from the Religious Right.  If that is the case, so be it, I would rather be one of the few who try to warn people than to sit silently and watch it unfold.  And that is what the topic of this post is about.  I don’t expect everyone to believe as I do, just to open their minds to the possibilities of what is definitely in the works.  It does not matter if the fruition of their work comes tomorrow or 5 years from now, the fact of the matter is, if they succeed most mainstream Christians, atheists, agnostics, some Catholics, general non-believers, Muslims, LGBT and many others in our society and the world will be affected by their policies.

To make my point, I cite Lisa Miller in her column, On Faith in The Washington Post and how she dismisses the movement by sourcing people from the movement.  Clearly she either has no idea what she is saying or she likes to write just to be heard.  She said, and I quote:

“One piece connects Texas Gov. Rick Perry with a previously unknown Christian group called “The New Apostolic Reformation,” whose main objective is to “infiltrate government.” Another highlights whacko-sounding Christian influences on Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota. A third cautions readers to be afraid, very afraid, of “dominionists.”

Previously unknown, to her maybe, not to people who have been following this group for years, in my case, 3 years. One Piece(in her statement) is the Texas Observer article about Rick Perry and “The Call” and “whacko-sounding Christian Influences” is the article in the New Yorker on Michelle Bachman.  Then she goes on to quote, Mark DeMoss, who owns a company that exclusively caters to Christian leaders, businesses, non-profit organizations and causes, providing public relations services.  A bit of discrimination going on there or is it the natural procession of their dominionist theories, serving only like minded persons and businesses?  Do you see where this kind of thing could affect you, me or anyone not a professing Christian?

“Mark DeMoss, whose Atlanta-based public relations firm represents several Christian groups, put it this way: “You would be hard-pressed to find one in 1,000 Christians in America who could even wager a guess at what dominionism is.””

How dismissive of mainline Christians who very well know what Dominionism is, some of their churches have been steeplejacked so they are well aware of these people.  Further on that note, there are many secularists who are aware of this group.  Miller tries to make her point by quoting DeMoss(stumping for Romney) and pointing to the fact that Doug Wead, who coined “compassionate conservatism” under GWBush is currently working for Ron Paul.  I wonder if it ever occurred to her they may be doing so because there is money involved in such pursuits and they are natural to what these two pursue on a daily basis.  By quoting DeMoss, Miller is also disregarding a growing group in this country and she might be referred to as a “whacko-sounding christian influence” just as she did with the New Yorker.  She goes on to criticize Rachel Maddow and in general I found the piece to be light on fact and short on research.  I have posted her column below.

Another well-respected journalist on the left, Chris Hayes, is also guilty of not doing his homework on the guests he brings to the show.  A couple weeks ago on UP with Chris Hayes, he had a pastor, Samuel Rodriguez, who if I did not know better sounded like a perfectly normal conservative spokesman for Hispanics.  While he was referred to as a pastor, nothing in detail was given.  I knew I had heard the name before in conjunction with David Barton but at the time I was listening to him I thought perhaps his connection was thin, of course I was wrong.  Samuel Rodriguez is in it up to his eyebrows.  In 2009, Rodriguez joined the International Coalition of Apostles, a network of several hundred apostles convened by C. Peter Wagner with the stated goal of taking Christian dominion over society and government. In November, 2009, the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference under the leadership of Rodriguez, formed an alliance with John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel.  Rodriguez is also involved with The Oak Initiative, a Religious Right organization formed in 2009 with a mission to save Christendom from the enemy –  portrayed as a Marxist/Leftist/Homosexual/Islamic coalition. He has since been named Vice President of The Oak Initiative which he describes as a Social Justice organization that is now coordinating with Frank Gaffney’s Center for Security Policy.  The Oak Initiative also partnered with its affiliate, Transforming Michigan, Lou Engle’s The Call, and the nation’s apostolic prayer warrior networks, in The Call Detroit, described as a spiritual warfare offensive against Islam. There were speeches on the “Nine Prinicipals of Warfare” by Lt. Gen. (Ret.) William “Jerry” Boykin and ceremonies held around the state for the purpose of fighting the demons they claim control freemasonry and Islam.   During the 2010 elections the organization widely disseminated a video titled “Marxism in America,” in which board member Ret. Lt. Gen. William Boykin claims that under Obama’s leadership the nation is in the grips of a growing Marxist insurgency. This video was popular with Tea Party organizations across the nation. So, here we have it again, a respected journalist giving these people “street creds” by featuring them on their shows and “hopefully” not knowing what was really behind their organizations.  Since I started this piece, I wrote to Chris Hayes about his appearance with Rodriguez and have not heard word one from him or his staff.   I know he is a respected journalist but this incident just makes me wonder if anyone in the MSM strives to be totally honest.  I felt like Chris was trying to pull the wool over by not stating this gentleman’s total creds and if not, he is no better at researching his guests than anyone else in the MSM.  To read Rodriguez’ website, you would never know he is involved with Engel in The Call and The Oak Initiative, if it is mainstream, why would he not mention it on his website?

On Current this month, Vanguard has a documentary, Missionaries of Hate, that portrays the Ugandan problem with LGBT persons and who should be in the middle of it all?  Yessiree, Lou Engle, Scott Lively and Rick Warren although the latter says he no longer supports The Call.  The pastor they are working with in Uganda is widely acclaimed in Uganda and to hear him speak, you would think you just walked into Uganda’s version of the Tea Party/Religious Right.  He has all the “dog whistle” speak down pat and is very graphic with his discussions of “anal sex” telling his followers how Gays then smear the “poopoo” all over their faces after sex.  It is disgusting and anyone who would believe such rhetoric has to be under the influence of “fanaticism” or their own personal Satan.  They followed a gay man around during the documentary and it was just heartbreaking to see and hear how difficult his life has been made by these people.  He fears for his life as do others in his same position and will probably have to move after he was outed by this Pastor and his “chums” by giving out his personal information in a newspaper.  All he ever wanted to do was live a quiet life and these monsters refuse to allow it.  While all of this goes on, the instigators, Lively, Warren and Engall are safe in their warm beds in the USA.

 

 

It cannot be stressed enough that people need to perform their own research on this topic as well as the talking heads that are presented to us as something they are not.  Or perhaps the person presenting that talking head did not do their own homework on to really know and understand exactly what that person believes and practices in their daily lives.  I am not just picking on Chris Hayes or Lisa Miller, this is something most of the mainstream media no longer does these days.  A few years ago I saw Tony Harris on CNN introduce the Prince of Nigeria as one of his great friends, that “great” friend was involved in scams from Beverly Hills to London that preceded his appearance with Tony Harris, yet Tony Harris introduced him as a credible person.  The subject matter had nothing to do with grifters either.  Then today, caught a bit of Chris Matthews and he listed Santorum as the only religious right member of the Republican candidates.  Just how irresponsible can these people be?  I think my post here shows just how irresponsible it all is.  While the secular world is getting on with their lives, though, these people have been busy building their quorum in local, state and national office.  Even if you do not believe these people are harmless, I wonder what you would think when your community turns into a Wake County, NC?  Those board members had reign over that school district for 2 or more years before they were voted out and look what they did.  They do learn from their mistakes and will be more careful the next time, never fear.  After hearing the to-do about Tim Tebow this past weekend, I am beginning to think Bill Maher is really a closet RR.  He sure gave them a platform to point the finger at Secularists/Atheists as being of the Devil/Satan.  I know you cannot curb what others say, I just wish they would think before doing so.

In closing, I just want to encourage people, especially in this primary season, to learn about those candidates, educate others and make sure you are aware of exactly whom you are getting information from.  Check the pundits backgrounds, question comments made by the candidates, know their backgrounds and pass your knowledge on, that is what I have tried to do here.

 

Bill Engle, Scott Lively and their meddling in Uganda

http://www.fridae.asia/newsfeatures/2009/12/15/9438.anti-gay-bigots-plunge-africa-into-new-era-of-hate-crimes

http://www.fridae.asia/newsfeatures/2010/06/02/10003.missionaries-of-hate

Lisa Miller – On Faith, Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/dominionism-beliefs-among-conservative-christians-overblown/2011/08/17/gIQAb5eaNJ_story.html

Detroit News on The Call controversy

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20111111/LIFESTYLE04/111110455/Tens-of-thousands-pray-for-Detroit-at-Ford-Field-rally

Founded by Mark DeMoss in 1991, The DeMoss Group is the nation’s first and largest public relations agency exclusively serving Christian leaders, businesses, non-profit organizations and causes.

http://www.demossgroup.com/

 

 

Written by SueInCa

I am a soon to be 59 Nana to Anthony who is 11. I live in Benicia CA with my husband and Shih Tsu. I worked in Banking and the Financial Industry for 24 years in Fraud, Risk Management, Account Management, Program Management, Project Management and Customer Service. I was a Fraud Investigator for Credit Card and Merchant Business and investigated internal fraud and responded to Bank robberies. I was also management in most of these positions. Now I am content to find a part time job where I am just a worker bee, no more corporate BS for this gal. I also make jewelry. I can spend hours in a bead shop just touching all the fine baubles. Only another beader would understand that one.

36 Responses so far.

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  1. jjgravitas says:

    This is why I gave up on all established religions a long time ago. Once a religion becomes “established” (self-perpetuating. All the top religions fit into this category.), grabbing and holding onto power becomes its main priority, and its original message takes a back seat. When was the last time a politician talked about the actual teachings of Jesus Christ, about piety, about turning the other cheek, about His disdain for and dislike of money and politicians? Separation of church and state was written into the U.S. Constitution for this very reason. When a government aligns itself with a religion, both become corrupted. This is true for all religions and all governments -- there can be no exceptions.

  2. MurphTheSurf3 says:

    Sue.

    Nice going. Your ongoing reports on this dangerous philosophy (masked as a religion) are always informed and informative. Valuable (and frightening).

    Do you know these sources:
    http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/HowDominionistsTookOverSBCChronology.html
    http://www.politicususa.com/en/radical-dominionists

    I know a Baptist Minister who has led his Congregation in a disassociation from the SBC to the North American Baptist Conference….quite a thing to do in rural Missouri.

    He did it by showing how the SBC had moved into association with the Dominionists. He convinced his Board of Elders that beneath its Christian trappings, it is a dangerous cult. The Elders in turn convinced the membership. They lost a few families but gained a number as well.

    I have been sharing your material with him.

    • SueInCa says:

      Murph
      Thanks for your support.
      I have heard of Yureka rpt but not the other two, will take a look. Good for that pastor, the Assemblies of God has formally dissassociated themselves with their churches who support Dominionists as well. I believe they are HQ in Missouri as well?

      • MurphTheSurf3 says:

        Read your last couple pieces and am considering a response. Well done, both.

        Yes, the Assemblies HQ is in Springfield Mo.

        The pastor I mentioned…..I let him know I posted his story. He told me that about half of the Baptist churches with multiple associations have dropped their SBC affiliation.There is now a national commission appointed by some oversight body in the church that is looking into Dominionism influence.

        • SueInCa says:

          My sister is involved with a Baptist church. I am going to talk to her about some of the things here to determine what “brand” she signed up with. She is a sweetie but somewhat naive. She grew up Catholic.

  3. Wow! I have no doubt that these people are dangerous, to put it mildly, but the video with Gen. Boykin is just amazing in it’s propagandist content.
    Marxist insurgencies are part of Green Beret training? I think that training is more about insurgencies than Marxism. He uses Castro as an example of what is going on here? Joseph Goebbels would love this guy.
    Healthcare represents major sectors of our economy? What is the reason for using the plural of “sector?”
    Discredit the opposition? Isn’t that what his whole video is attempting to do? He insinuates that the left is against “returning vets?”
    Censorship? Of whom? He says the MSM is “mostly leftist?” Really?
    This one really gets me, “Hate crimes legislation is directed against “pastors?” Well sure, IF THEY ARE COMMITTING HATE CRIMES.
    UN Small Arms Treaty? What in the world does that have to do with private gun ownership in the US?
    A constabulary force made up of civilians? Really?
    And of course he goes to Godwin’s Law with Hitler and the brown shirts.

    What really gets me about this guy is that he doesn’t offer one shred of evidence to support ANY of these ridiculous claims. And there are PLENTY of idiots out there that will take his words as the absolute truth. Scary indeed.

    • kesmarn says:

      I finally just had a chance to watch the Boykin vid. What a throwback this guy is.

      McCarthy era, anyone? Good grief!

      When in the world did our President ever say that he planned to have a domestic “constabulary” that would be larger than the rest of the military? Did anyone ever hear that? Is it on video anywhere? Could that be because it never happened?

      What has happened though, is a bizarre movement called Oath Keepers which really does seem to have brown-shirt potential. But, of course, he ignores them because they’re right wingers.

      I know everyone has seen this clip from Dr. Strangelove before, but wouldn’t this Boykin fit right in in this scene of hysterical fear of “the commmies” and their plot to destroy our precious bodily fluids?


    • SueInCa says:

      KT

      This Boykin fellow has been traveling to churches all over the country with this propaganda shit and gets standing ovations. The right is well known for their “boogie man under the bed” theories and he plays right in to that fear. And you should know from seeing Fox viewers post all over that evidence is not necessary to a fool who wants to believe, they can always justify their beliefs. As far as sectors I think he was referring to hospitals, doctor offices, screening centers, pharmacies you know?

      Stephen Baldwin? He is a part of this group as well. A few years ago they did a money bomb for him because he was “poor” lol. He was heavily involved in the defense department prostelyzing

  4. ADONAI says:

    Another excellent piece, Sue. Your diligence on this subject is beyond admirable.

    I just have a couple of questions and you seem like the best person to ask.

    What are their long term plans for a “Christian theocracy”? I’ve read in great detail from your posts about their major goals, which I agree are terrible, and how they want to run this place, bu how do they plan to succeed?

    They have at least 3 sympathetic voices in the Supreme Court but it doesn’t appear to do them any good. Every overtly religious political candidate becomes immediately marginalized, even on the Republican ticket.

    Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee never have a chance of being elected Prresident because they flaunt their religion too openly. They can do well in certain states, even win a governor’s race or maybe a Senate seat but they’ll never be nominated for the highest office. It just turns off too many voters. So i don’t see how they ever plan to get overwhelming power if they can’t get their poster boys elected.

    The last Senate races in Mississippi and Alabama featured deeply religious candidates. They never made it past the first month. And this is Mississippi and Alabama. I think they have a much steeper hill to climb than people realize.

    And my second question

    How will they contend with state’s rights issues? They can’t just seize the federal government and begin to do what they want. They’ll be countered by every governor looking to have their own dominion. And very few care about Jesus unless he’s registered to vote in their state.

    • SueInCa says:

      Adonai

      Here is a very good chronology of how these dominionists work their magic. In this case with Southern Baptists. They are patient as this chronology will confirm.

      http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/HowDominionistsTookOverSBCChronology.html

      Thanks to Murph for bringing to my attention.

    • choicelady says:

      There have been SCOTUS decisions this year alone that shattered the wall of separation of church and state for the first time EVER. In Arizona a group directing TAX CREDITS to conservative private school students were permitted to continue doing that even though no other type of student, not even Catholics and Lutherans, got those credits. This is simply astounding violation of equality before the law, but the justices rationalized it as “merely” a credit rather than an outright grant, so -- get over it. They said taxpayers had NO standing to appeal this.

      Their gifts to corporations in Citizens United, the Wal-Mart class action dismissal, etc. are part of the belief that there is embedded inequality in America with the “saved” being the Elect and therefore entitled to benefits the rest of us do not get. It’s not JUST preferential treatment of corporations -- it is a religious belief that the rich are the Chosen.

      So it’s done them a world of good. It is to the courts that the final test of our laws goes. These decisions are dangerous and far reaching. Be on the lookout for more.

    • SueInCa says:

      PS, what happened after 9/11? Alot of people turned to religion. While it was temporary, it was the opening the Bush administration needed to try their tactics. Also look at the military and the amount of prostelyzing that is going on there and around the world.

      • ADONAI says:

        I will read Republican Gommorah. I want a better insight into what you’re talking about so I don’t feel so lost.

        But, what I would say about Bush is, didn’t Evangelicals see him as a failure? One that got away? he made a lot of promises to them but never really followed through on them. Pandered to them with that “Faith Based Initiative” stuff. His approval ratings with Evangelicals went down every year. Especially in his second term.

        I’m sure they want someone like Bush, a puppet, but wouldn’t they want someone a little more with them ideologically? But, most of all, someone a little more competent?

        • SueInCa says:

          Adonai

          I am sure they would but they are not the most sophisticated voters either. Bush gave them an in to see if religious antics could get by and like I said, they do learn from their mistakes. I think they see Paul as someone who can satisfy a lot of different groups, in fact take Kelly Clarkson. She knows about the “unpleasant” aspects of Paul but is willing to overlook them because of other things he claims he stands for. He would be a zealot if he ever got in. And I believe Romney can be bought………Gingrich is a megalomaniac and a religious Catholic(charasmatic) who is already working with the dominion side. Bachman, Santorum both are RR and with Americans Elect trying to muck up the water, It Could Happen Here lol

    • SueInCa says:

      Adonai

      They are trying out several scenarios and are constantly learning from their mistakes. They realize the SCOTUS is very important in succeeding in their goals and they have 5 right now that are sympathetic to their movement. They are showing great restraint but there have been cracks. 2000 and the appointment of George Bush to the presidency was a huge coup for them. Americans United. Office of Faith Based Iniatives was a boondoggle as well. They are attacking Planned Parenthood, ACORN they basically shut down. They are attacking abortion rights and women;s rights in general. School and local politics as well as Alec. The best book for you to read on them is Republican Gommorah because it delves into all the shadow groups you would not think behind them, that are. Do you think for a minute Romney would not sell his soul to them in order to sit in the White House? His religion thinks they are going to be the saviors of our Constitution. Rep Gommorah is a very easy read by Max Blumenthal and it will answer alot of your questions. It is available on Kindle for a low price. Even though I have read it, I bought it to keep handy on mine. I am going to do a profile on each of the candidates, it might help to see how they could fool the American people. Also remember the Patriot Act, I am one who believes the Bushies let it happen in order to further the RR goals. What state argued and succeeded in reversing that? Think Shock Doctrine when you wonder how they could get their agenda passed.

  5. AdLib says:

    Sue, thank you for your conscience and diligence in connecting the dots in this critical area, especially in light of the laziness and indifference that MSM folks exhibit.

    By not doing the kind of responsible research on their guests, as legit journalists used to do, they are in fact validating and advertising some pretty terrible people out there with pretty destructive agendas.

    I’ve seen this failing become more and more frequent, whether it’s been promoting the insidious T Boone Pickens as an altruistic green energy advocate or presenting the conservative hedge fund financed, Americans Elect as a non-partisan “people’s” movement.

    In this case, when it comes to Dominionists and religious extremists whose hatreds and prejudice can indeed lead to the suffering and even death of those they hate, it is very dangerous to allow them the sanction of credibility and validated facades.

    More to add later but thanks again for exposing crucial truths that apparently escape those who are trusted with reporting what passes for news today.

    • SueInCa says:

      Adlib
      Thanks for awhile there I was thinking about dropping the series because I was not sure it was even interesting to people after the first series. I am contemplating a piece on each of the Republican candidates, we will see. I have been dogging Americans Elect on Twitter about their 1% and CFR relations. We will see if they take the bait lol

      • AdLib says:

        Sue, hope the response to your article affirms how valuable and enlightening this series is!

        Love the idea of covering each of the GOP candidates’ connection to Dominionism and Christian Extremism.

        And thanks so much for keeping up the pressure on Americans Elect, an insidious anti-democratic plot, hiding as a wolf in the sheep’s clothing of populism.

        • SueInCa says:

          Adlib
          Got over the depression and am halfway through Santorum already. I also have an idea to speak to Adonai’s questions as to how these people could implement what they want. I have to think about how to present it and get all my examples in a readable order but I am hoping it will answer the questions of people who say, “It could not happen here”

  6. agrippa says:

    Sue, thanks for writing about those people. They should be written about, without being alarmist.

    • SueInCa says:

      I agree Agrippa. My goal is to keep the conversation open and active. I also want to alert people to the “signs” or “examples” of their goals as I did with DeMoss’ business. As a religious nation, our lives would be no different than oppressed people in the ME, China, N Korea or anywhere tyrants hold office.

  7. Nirek says:

    Sue, I agree with you. The religious should keep their religion out of the politics of America. I don’t push my religion on others and I don’t want them pushing theirs on me or our government.

    You say it much better than I do.

  8. kesmarn says:

    Sue, I have only a few minutes before it’s time to get ready for work, but I just have to say that I do not consider you a fanatic!

    This is an area where your background as a fraud investigator is perfect. Because these RR folks are frauds and you know how to investigate! (I don’t know how you can keep them all straight. There seem to be so many of them…and so many organizations. All with militaristic names!)

    I don’t know how Chris Matthews can claim to be a thinking person and make the statement that Santorum is the only RR candidate. Has he listened to the others? Especially Perry and Bachmann?? If he had any credibility left to lose, it would be gone now. Fortunately he doesn’t.

    Thanks again, BFF, for staying on top of this very important issue. And for keeping us aware of the latest developments. More later, I hope.

    • SueInCa says:

      BFF

      I will keep writing. I am thinking about doing a background on each candidate in the race…………we will see. I was stunned when Matthews made that statement. I would have thrown a shoe at the TV but it is a new flat screen, maybe in a few more years.

  9. DFHredux says:

    Well count me among the extremists I guess. The separation is supposed to be UTTER separation. There should be no religious right. There should be no religious left. There should be no religious arguments in politics. The people to whom a personal relationship with their deityis important should be the people to whom the separation is MOST important. The principal author of The Constitution of the United States of America was an extremist in this regard as well. He wrote this list of reasons to the separation to be strict and complete based on the entire history of human government from the time of Pericles to his day.

    http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/madison_m&r_1785.html

    It is the 1st amendment because it is an absolute MUST. Madison’s language is unambiguous and his reasoning was correct.

    • choicelady says:

      Hold on now. I, a great friend of SueinCA, totally agree with her. That said, my entire job is mobilizing progressive Christians to speak in the public square. How do we differ from the religious right? First -- we bother to have a 501-c-4 that is NOT tax deductible for donors. Second -- we come FROM our values to speak about democracy. We do not seek to impose our views ON democracy. In this respect we are no different from the League of Women Voters.

      Progressive people of faith have attended and led every significant movement in America from abolition to ending child labor to women’s suffrage, labor rights, anti-war and pacifism, anti-imperialism, civil rights,GLBT inclusion and equality, and on and on and on. We also are front and center in speaking for the separation of church and state, and we are hunted, harassed, and threatened because of it.

      OK -- we probably were also largely responsible for Prohibition, but everyone makes mistakes. This past election in CA we also pumped for the legalization of marijuana. We are quite capable of learning from the past.

      Mobilizing people in congregations to speak FROM views of inclusion, peace, justice, equity, and compassion is radically different from the Right that seeks world domination so that ONLY their views (drawn from the OLD Testament not the new) will prevail and others will have no voice at all.

      There is no “equality” between the faith groups on the “left” and those on the right. This is a radical departure between the two views in both goals and practice.

      So don’t tar with the same brush. The energies progressives bring to the public square speak on behalf of ALL people’s rights -- even the Right’s rights where they are consistent with democracy -- and are not a threat to our Constitution or equality.

      SueinCA knows that about us -- she’s been a big supporter of ours and a beloved friend. She knows we “get it” and challenge those who do not. Most of what we value in our national history owes a great deal to the presence of wise and democratic people of faith. Now is not the time to throw us under the bus, too, just to get rid of the imperialists in our midst.

      • DFHredux says:

        I’m sorry if my comment was unclear. I don’t believe the religious right to be the same as the religious left. They absolutely are not the same. I’ve been known to refer to the religious right as Talibangelicals because of their desire to implement a “christian” variety of sharia that doesn’t really bare much, if any, resemblance to actual christianity. I get that the religious left is not trying to legislate anything like compliance with christian views. They are using religious values to motivate voters. My issue is that I believe that to still be against the rules. Using religious politics to persuade voters and therefore legislation resulting from that political activity, even when it is policy with which I am passionately in agreement, has been against the rules since the Bill of Rights was ratified. That was the opinion I was trying to express. That’s why I cited the Madison document. I realize that you will probably have some deeply held opinions contrary to mine, but I absolutely recognize a MASSIVE difference between religious people on the left and the religious right and would not want you think that I think you’re that sort of hateful, selfish, “christian”.

        • SueInCa says:

          One thing I would add to your statement. The left has been almost forced to the table by Republicans calling them secular humanists which to their people is almost the Antichrist. There was explicitly no requirements in the Constitution for a religion attached to the office of President, for good reason. I think alot of left would leave it alone if they were not fearful of extinction as secular humanists. It is no secret that the right would like to anhillate all of the left and would if given the power.

      • SueInCa says:

        CL
        The difference to me is that mainline or left Christians are sincerely concerned with social justice and it is right that they support and fight for it wherever it is needed. Also they don’t shove their religion in my face so I am more likely to move in that direction if I decided to attend church regularly. Also they have not been caught saying they want to implement Biblical law and take away every right women have fought for so many years to hold.

        My discussion on DeMoss was added here to show what a country ruled by religious right extremists would look like. Businesses that only cater to religious people and groups? In my opinion that is their “mark of the beast” and would prove to me they are evil to the core.

        “note closely what Revelation 13:17 says, “And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

        What else could a business like DeMoss’ be replicating?

        • choicelady says:

          I SO agree! I know what you think, of course, and we are in complete agreement. Furthermore, not many in “our” world would try to lead you to Jesus (and I run from the few who do, too!) because the issue is to fight for justice no matter who you are, what you believe.

          The tendency among secular people seeking justice though is to forget our 200 years of history and lump everyone in the same pot. Jerry Falwell et al. have done grievous harm that way by dividing faith and secular activists. It wasn’t their goal, but I bet Jerry Baby is chortling in his grave that it IS a result. The progressive and mainline faith communities are NOT “Falwell Lite” but an entirely different type of people. It just gets difficult when people forget the role faith leaders played in seeking reform -- it was REV. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. -- in every important movement since the nation was founded -- and before that in Europe. The social justice tradition is ages old, and it has always been a critical ally of every important step forward humankind has made. Nothing has changed.

          And WE obey the secular laws that protect the separation of church and state, don’t abuse the non-profit tax codes, and consequently render us poor but mighty! Our sheer lack of money ought to brighten the day of even the most ardent non-believer! We aren’t the Right, and we can’t even pretend to be that rich. Sigh…

    • SueInCa says:

      DFHredux

      I am with you. Thanks for the paper Madison wrote. I saved it for future reference and the way he explained it leaves no questions as to what separation of church and state really means. thanks again


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