The media is failing Americans again by buying into the narrative that there is a real debate if using torture actually helped or did not help track down Osama Bin Laden.  It is simply logically invalid to let the debate continue that Osama Bin Laden was anyway discovered through the use of torture because that belief has a fatal logical flaw.  Instead using premise whether or not torture worked they should be asking questions to why we should be having this debate at all.

Why is the media not asking the first obvious question?

Since we know torture ended late in Bush’s term or early in his second term at worst why did Bush’s intelligence apparatus not find the name of the real courier?  The answer should be obvious if the media was competent and or not bias.  Because knowing Osama Bin Laden had a courier with a code name was of no real intelligence value.

Based on media reports the absolute most we got from torturing detainees was that Osama Bin Laden had a courier with a code name that could not even be corroborated because some detainees understandably lied and some just denied he had a trusted courier at all.

So we start out with the facts that at most they found out through torture that they found out Osama Bin Laden had a courier with some sort of code name.

There are two reasons the information gathered through torture was absolutely useless or at least obvious.

First since anchient times any military organization with competent military commanders have used couriers to transfer messages and orders.  It goes back that far because it’s obviously necessary for military leaders to use couriers.  So there is no way that piece of information was useful in any way because it was easily deduced unless you had the absurd belief that Osama Bin Laden used no couriers to carry out complex operations like 911.

Second since at least during Roman times (probably much earlier and I bet Khirad would probably have more insight) couriers had code names.  They used code names so they would not be caught and most importantly not be tracked back to the source in this case Osama Bin Laden.  So the couriers nickname could have been Donald Duck and it would still have not gotten us any closer to Osama Bin Laden.

Therefor the obvious logical conclusion is the “best” intelligence that could have been uncovered with torture was meaningless.  Ergo we should not even be debating whether torture helped catch Osama Bin Laden at all.  It really is logically speaking like debating if the world is flat or a spheroid.

Again based on the information we have most importantly the key crack in the case happened when we discovered Osama Bin Laden’s courier’s real name to a high degree of certainty.  Because that courier led us to the compound where Osama Bin Laden resided.  That key information was unequivocally gathered without the use of torture under the Obama administration using good old fashioned detective work including legal interrogations, survailance and FISA law.  Based on this excellent detective work the administration still only knew there was a 60-80% chance that Osama Bin Laden resided there.   Quite frankly I’m surprised no one is bringing up how the Patriot Act or newest FISA laws where most likely used to find the possible whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden.  But then again that would require a competent and unbiased media.

 

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funksands
Member

Ah so here is how things are going to be spun:

“… Interrogators would never have asked about the names of couriers during waterboarding. As I explain in my book, “Courting Disaster,” enhanced techniques were not used to gain intelligence; they were used to elicit cooperation. According to former CIA director Mike Hayden, as enhanced techniques were applied, CIA interrogators would ask detainees questions to which the interrogators already know the answers — allowing them to judge whether the detainees had reached a level of compliance. “They are designed to create a state of cooperation, not to get specific truthful answers to a specific question,” Hayden said.”

Marc Thiessen – Opinion piece Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obama-owes-thanks-and-an-apology-to-cia-interrogators/2011/05/03/AFka7tlF_story_1.html

KillgoreTrout
Member

This guy is long on opinion and very short on facts and citations.

ADONAI
Member

Torture has proved ineffective historically. A long list of false information given to stop whatever pain is being inflicted.

Napoleon didn’t care for it though he still used it on occasion cause he’s a dick.

During the Hundred Years War, the French and English tortured each other endlessly and never got anything of value from it. it only ended after they had burned a young woman at the stake for talking to GOD(Joan of Arc).

A lot of torture during the Civil war. No good intelligence. Any intelligence Sherman gained on his march to the sea was gained through interrogation. Not torture. Apparently, if you treat people like human beings, they’ll talk to you.

Germans and Japanese tortured hundreds, maybe thousands, of U.S. and Russian soldiers. Never got anything of value. Obviously. Same in Korea and Vietnam. It just doesn’t work. Especially on soldiers and people fighting for a cause they truly believe in. Many just will not betray that cause under torture. And when they do, they’re usually just telling you what you want to hear.

Sabreen60
Member
Sabreen60

See the shiny thingy – look over here. That’s all this is – a distraction. Something for the mouth breathers. Torture is ILLEGAL. The Geneva Conventions says so (which the US signed on to) and people have been prosecuted and jailed for using torture. All high level military and civilian investigators have said that information garnered from torture victims is suspect at best. To me, this is common sense. If someone is pouring water down your nose and throat chances are you will tell them what they want to hear. One of the major problems of prosecuting prisoners at Gitmo is determining whether they told the truth while being tortured. The MSM should go the way of the dinosaurs. The MSM is useless and in fact dangerous, IMO. The Fourth Estate my ass!

choicelady
Member

Generally the information “gained” is useless because tortured people will give up ANYTHING to end the torture. It is NOT open to debate!

It is crucial that we reply to every MSM declaration that this worked, that it broke the case, so to speak. That’s a LIE and needs to be called out, each time, every time.

Chernynkaya
Member

KQ yes, and thanks for pointing out the obviously illogical fact in such a plain way. But I’d bet that you know that certain segments of the American public–in fact, of the whole world–has abandoned logic for pure id. As in Idiocy. As we know–and to me this is the most frustrating thing–people who believe in nonsense actually become MORE convinced of their crap the more they are confronted with facts. There have been numerous studies proving this phenomenon, so I just don’t know how to combat idiocy. I can only take solace in thinking that these morons comprise a small segment of the population, but who knows. At this point, it has become common knowledge that some people will never be convinced that we killed OBL. It’s part of the public debate: if the government releases photos, will that convince anyone who doubts it anyway? This is how low we have sunk– that everyone has acknowledged that a significant potion of the American public is irrational. Let me amend that: there is such a thing as healthy skepticism regarding our government and the press. But what gets me is that the skeptics never question the Rights’ lies–only those of a Dem administration.

Anyway, I wanted to bring up something else that has gone under the radar: Wikileaks. This operation was successful because of the amazing secrecy that was maintained. At any moment, the whole thing could have been ruined if OBL had even a whiff of suspicion he was being watched. And so, the oh-so-patriotic Pvt Manning or whomever at Wikileaks dumped a bunch of correspondence from Gitmo. Including this:
[imgcomment image[/img]

They released the intel about the courier. What patriots. It is only by chance this little item didn’t blow the entire operation.

Abbyrose86
Member

I have a new tactic for combating the lunacy, I ask seemingly unrelated questions (of similar activities, in a nice way) AND than I start connecting the dots with questions about the subject at hand.

I have had a wee bit of success with those that aren’t TOO far gone with this tactic.

NOTHING works with the utterly hate filled and delusional. Sad to say.

Chernynkaya
Member

That’s a good strategy, Abby. But as you say, it only works with those who are merely not thinking things through, and not with the delusional.It really is upsetting to me how many seem to be too far gone. They want an need to believe the lies of the right because it justifies their hatred–I get that, but it really disturbs me how many of them there are!

Abbyrose86
Member

I hear you Cher…I actually, personally know some people like that, and they are sadly, very miserable people…as such they take their misery out on everyone and blame everyone…it’s really sad.

It disturbs me as well that so many are so angry and miserable with their lives, and they want to make everyone like them. I have my suspicions as to how this happens.

The people, I personally know who are like this, all have certain things in common…bad childhoods with uninvolved or somewhat abusive, and miserable parents.

It does seem that children do learn what they live and than continue that same behavior as adults.

So sad.

choicelady
Member

Abby – I think I understand and try to do it, but could you provide examples? I like this as a process, just want to understand it!

Abbyrose86
Member

Hi Choice lady, well for example…take the issue of taxes (this works best for town property taxes and school taxes, but I’ve used it for with those who JUST hate taxes, period,)

I start by asking where they shop…and if they ever buy in bulk. I might ask why they like a certain store or don’t like another store.

Depending on how they answer, will determine which direction I take and what questions I ask next…(I usually try to make it very conversational and friendly…and not necessary directed simply to the idea of taxes)

Then I might ask how much money do they save buying in bulk (on the unit price) or going to a particular store…than I may ask why they think it is CHEAPER at that store. (Most people do realize that buying in bulk is cheaper and that big stores such as Walmart buy in large quantities and thus benefit from economies of scale…they might not know the term for it, but they realize it).

And then I start asking questions about how much do they think they would be pay in tuition for a private school or to have their garbage picked up. I might even (depending on who I am speaking to ask them to calculate the daily/monthly amount of that expenditure and then calculate what their daily/monthly tax liability actually is) SOME have been quite surprised that they actually pay less in property taxes per day, than they spend on coffee!

choicelady
Member

Ok – I do understand and have done similar things, though not that which I love! Just wanted to be sure I did get it right. It’s bloody brilliant! I really like that and totally agree with you about how well that can work!

Asking questions really does work better than lecturing unless you’ve been invited to do the latter (I am often). Helping people find their core values and linking those values to other issues such as saving money in “bulk purchases” of governmental services is just GREAT. Nice job! Thank you for such a brilliant example!

You’re right also about not wasting your breath on the deeply furious haters of everything. Smile and walk away.

choicelady
Member

I’m not being funny – I bet the government used couriers with briefcases chained to wrists just to avoid the leaks.

I have no problem with secrecy in defense of needed actions with revelations give afterwards. I agree with KQ – the leaks that cost lives were disgusting and indefensible.

ADONAI
Member

I gotta tell you, if the plan to kill Bin Laden fell apart, Bradley Manning would have been the last person I blamed.

They may have gotten Bin Laden but this doesn’t change my feelings about the military one bit. You’re a good man Bradley Manning. You may have went a little overboard, but I get ya.

foxisms
Guest

Perhaps the use of torture remains an issue because after years of the American people telling themselves that our country was above that sort of treatment for people in our custody and that ‘only the bad guys would do such a thing to people in their custody’ — we were hit with scenes from Gitmo, followed by the family photo albums from Abu Ghraib and most recently, the use and official justification of wide spread “water boarding” as a means to extract information. Underlying this was the knowledge that there was no “logical”, compelling reason to be engaged in certain theaters of combat to begin with, at which point the whole American self image thing kind of took a massive beating for a good while there. And still has the bruises to show it.
We have no reason to be confident that torture is no longer in use now, anymore than we did then. It’s not the kind of thing political officials or military personnel like to own up to in a free society that likes to see itself above all that.
The fact is, the American people have no real way of knowing or verifying if torture is or isn’t in any fashion, still in practice as an informational tool in any one of perhaps dozens of secreted, off shore, international gulags run for the convenience (or security) of American and NATO secret (and not so secret) forces. Knowing this, knowing human nature, knowing our history and the history and practices of war in general… I think it’s perfectly logical to at least assume the possibility of torture remaining an implement and practice of advantage to no less degree than ever.
“Logic” and “logical fallacies” began to lose their meanings when people began using them as arguments to support their own “logical” conclusions while bypassing the equations necessary to support, qualify and trace any and all “logic” involved or being declared.
Of course everyone with an opinion believes it to be, if not correct entirely, then certainly derived at “logically” and thus it must be “logical”. Everyone I know believes their arguments and opinions are founded on sound logic. I’m sure everyone you know does too.
But more often than not, it isn’t. Not really. It’s just an opinion added to those expressed by everyone else. It can be well thought out, and to some or many (and especially the originator)it genuinely feels logical. But calling it such makes it no more right or wrong or no more a logical construction or a logical fallacy than any other…no matter how well written or expressed as this one and many here and elsewhere are.
The use of the word “logical” has become simultaneously a qualifier and a disclaimer as an entrance fee for modern conversation and credibility. As such, it has moved from simply representing the science of logic, to something all together different.
Not necessarily a bad thing or something used by bad intended people, by any means. But still, something entirely different than what it once was.

choicelady
Member

Yes – we CAN be sure torture is no longer being used by our government because this administration’s process has been vetted by outside human rights groups. It also can be verified by results. Torture? No usable information for 8 years. NO torture – excellent information in 8 months. Both the US and NATO have pacts against the use of torture, and we know historically NATO never has used it.

There is no way we can entirely rule out the use of torture by some of our dubious allies, but renditions to those countries are being seriously curtailed so that the risk is greatly lessened.

Study this – Phillipe Sands, Jane Mayer etc. The use of torture by the government of our nation has been comparatively rare. The LEGAL justification of torture came entirely with Bush. On Jan. 22, 2009 President Obama outlawed the use of torture as his very first act as president. I believe from human rights investigations that we do NOT use torture at all anymore. That IS how we verify. In two years plus, the only people absolutely “certain” that we still torture prisoners of war and conflict are progressives who have yet to yield up a scrap of evidence. Not one.

So yeah – I think, as the former board member of a national anti-torture organization, I can pretty securely say – the US no longer uses torture. And the pressure to end it came almost entirely from faith and human rights groups. We DID prevail on this issue.

Now – to stop the Religious Right from covertly and illegally funding nations overseas that DO use torture? That’s our next step. They work entirely outside government, under the table, to give support to brutal dictators who will make alliances with these Christian supremacists for mutual support. Read “The Family” by Jeff Sharlett on this alliance. It’s mind boggling. We need to challenge our own RW Christians from perpetuating foreign policy in extra-legal ways, especially those acts that engage dictators who torture their own people. This HAS to stop.

foxisms
Guest

choice, I see why you choose to hang your hope on these particular coat hooks, and many people hang theirs on others with far less confidence, so I can hardly fault yours.
Me? I’m looking forward to something a little more solid, I suppose. I need that.
Going on faith alone for policy of this or any administration is why so many are surprised when they learn of there being a gap between the message and the means as we have done from the Bay of Tonkin to the Iraq invasion to what we ultimately learned about Abu Ghraib.
My skittishness is no reflection on President Obama, his administration or the possibility of any hopes he may promise and make good on. I wish him well with his agenda but I don’t pretend to know it. He remains my president too.
You and I are just two different people going about what we do and yet (I think) hoping for the same outcomes.

choicelady
Member

I just saw this, so I will answer now. I am not basing this on faith, secular or religious, but on VERIFICATION by human rights groups. Since the Jan. 22 Executive Order, we have not had one single case of torture admitted into evidence.

As noted, rendition is HIGHLY problematic since we cannot control other nations, but we have largely stopped that practice thus reducing – not necessarily eliminating – the use of torture.

It’s the verification that lets me know, foxisms.

We do need to go backwards in time as well. It is all too clear that the US used torture and threat of same in Vietnam. Too many of our “walking wounded” from that war are mentally disturbed thanks to what they saw, what they did. It is clear that prisoners were in fact thrown out of helicopters over the ocean to make another prisoner talk. It is clear that we shot people to make other people talk. That has been confirmed BY too many of our soldiers.

So the formal and de facto uses of torture after WW II – things “borrowed” from the Nazis the religious right brought over to the US after the end of the war – became a Cold War certainty.

However, that ended with the Executive Order. Unless or until we have some kind of confirmation from those empowered to visit prisoners that torture is still being used, I think we can safely say it is not. The Red Cross, Red Crescent, and other human rights groups would be hollering loudly and clearly if they had wind of ANYTHING that even hinted that the US was still employing those methods.

Remember, too, that virtually ALL of the torture was propagated by contract people, not by the military. We no longer use them at Gitmo or anywhere else. They still have presence, but they no longer do that job. They are out in the open. I think they should be denies contracts for ANY job, but they are no longer doing intelligence work at all. The Army Field Manual which is now the Gold Standard for interrogations specifically forbids the use of torture, and any military interrogator will tell you how utterly USELESS torture is as a means of extracting information. It is about conveying fear to populations and to show the power of the sovereign. This president has no such delusions.

KillgoreTrout
Member

Choice, if you have netflix, there is a great documentary concerning the atrocities committed in Vietnam. It’s entitled “Winter Soldier.” The things done by our own troops over there were as bad as it gets. My Lei was only one instance that got reported. There were several, just like it, that were not reported, or worse, ignored completely.

choicelady
Member

KQ – thank you for emphasizing this. I will say that yesterday the AP had a story affirming that NO information came out under torture, waterboarding or any other type, but under conventional interrogation. The Washington Post asserted that it had, and I wrote the reporter sending the AP story. I told him that I’d talked with high level interrogators who repudiate the use of torture as utterly useless, and that the fact (not clear it IS a fact) that two people who HAD been waterboarded later gave some useful help (how could they when they were out of circulation) proved only coincidence not causality. Later yesterday, the NY Times did a careful story about the chronology of evidence – as you note there are always couriers – and that the identity came very much after we’d ended torture.

The evidence – the identity of the courier – could NOT be old or it would have been useless. What intelligence was gleaned was done so through non-torture methods, was RECENT – and the media reluctantly are having to affirm that torture was DYSFUNCTIONAL in holding up information for several years.

So the Right will always give Georgie “credit” for things done and exonerate him from things undone – but this time they may have given us leverage for pursuing international human rights abuses with the US intelligence community shoving Bush out the door. They HATE what he did with contractors, and they won’t be falling on their swords to protect him.

kesmarn
Admin

Well said, KQ.

The other logical fallacy that was pointed out by the mathematician around here is that when the economy was really struggling after Obama took office a common line from the right was: “Stop claiming that the economy’s problems are due to Bush. It’s been x number of months since Obama took office and he now owns the economy. Get over it.”

Well if Obama has to own the economy, then he gets to own this accomplishment. Free and clear. If all things Bush ended the day Obama took office, then so be it.

If there’s no blame allowed for Bush, there’s no credit allowed either.

Mightywoof
Member

Absolutely agree KQ – unfortunately, the media nowadays (in this 24-7 news cycle) has to talk, transmit and print non-stop – so they gossip. That is all it is – pure gossip and speculation and of the worst kind. Nobody listens to `nice` but they`ll listen open-mouthed if a good conspiracy theory seems to be forming. I`d roll my eyes again but I`m trying to break the habit.

SallyT
Member

The main reason torture has been in the media is because the right (FOX) has jumped on the information about the courier came out of Guantanamo. Obama stopped waterboarding in 2009. The left has had to address it. Many of the detainees had been waterboarded before but the information came later. The main issue, I feel, is: Why didn’t Bush use the information if he got it when they were using torture? Because they didn’t have it. Torture is illegal and should remain as such. That is the Lefts argument before and still.

foxisms
Guest

ST. I don’t think we have any way to confirm that water boarding or any other harsh treatment has been eliminated from the menu provided to extract information from someone that would lead to the sense of security (real or imagined) that might be being sought by agents CIA or military…regardless of the public signing of documents to that effect.
It may be carried out by an allied companion in our behalf and at our behest in a mutually shared and hidden holding facility, thus removing the implicit involvement of US personnel or it may be going on otherwise as a matter of course. It may be happening less than previously or more than previously. Who’s to say?
But we have no way of knowing what practices are being implemented or not, now, any more than we have known prior to the occurances of those instances that we “accidentally” became aware of in the first place. Perhaps it’s a matter of faith. Perhaps it’s a hope for the best. But it’s not a known variable now any more than it was in the past.

bito
Member

Good point Sally, where is all the cable speculation on the “if the Bush admin. had the information, why didn’t they use it, were they saving it for President Obama? That topic could at least fill a few hours of the jabbers.

Kalima
Admin

Hi K, I agree completely. I just discovered that the British news sites also have this story in their headlines. It’s once again pure speculation before hardly any of the details have been released. If you remember here in Japan and the fear mongering and pure fallacy reported in the international press, you will know how annoying and tedious media speculation can be. Why can’t they just wait for the details, instead of charging off on stories that they might have to retract.

I decided not to post any of their stories concerning the “torture” leaked information. Instant gratification is so crass and boring, but the lunatics who want to smear your President seem to forget that Bush was actually signing off on the torture during his time in office, and it was illegal, and now they want to give him credit for this crime or for something that was undeniably not obtained through torture?

We didn’t hear any complaints from the RW then did we. These poor, dumb Bush apologists now find themselves without a “bad guy”, it won’t be long before their attention turns back to Iran or N. Korea, you know, Bush’s famous “axis of evil”. If they want him back so badly, someone could throw them some deep sea fishing tackle, and they could try to hook him. I hope that someone is taking notes about all this talk about torture being admitted so openly and freely right now, because I’m sure that there will be plenty of space when they arrive at Den Haag. If the Left is running with this they should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.