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Dbostremendous job Ad; as usual.The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
DbosPlain and simple Fox news has been fomenting...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
KalimaI read that these losers are still planning their campaigns around repealing Obamacare even as the...Time Out for O/T
KalimaWell why not, he’s jumped the shark on this already. Go for it Snowflake! N. Korea has a new ski...Time Out for O/T
KalimaSo the Repubs sanctify someone like Putin while...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
NirekAd, I agree unless you expose government secrets...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
NirekKT, if you or I robbed a bank and when the police...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
KillgoreTroutCliven Bundy Syndrome: Why Christian...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
AdLibKT – What seems more important to these...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
KillgoreTroutThe irony here is that incidents like Ruby...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
AdLibppo, we have seen the RW Republicans cheering Putin...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
AdLibYep, right wing anti-government extremists ready to...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
AdLibNirek, it’s very American IMO to oppose the...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
AdLibKalima, I think the DoJ should let the courts...The Right Wing and Fox News: Patriots Who Want Gun Battles With America
AdLibHeh! Or maybe he’ll move to North Korea and declare it a freer nation than the U.S.?Time Out for O/T
AdLibKalima, exactly! The MSM is drooling over the profits that greater conflict could bring them so...Time Out for O/T
1 hour, 49 minutes
2 guests are online.
AdLib : Night Murph!
MurphTheSurf3 : I suspect you may be correct. Well, good night.
AdLib : Murph - Good point about Crimea but the statistics I saw about the ethnic makeup didn't jibe with the 90% or more pro-Russia vote. I do agree that there is a large Russian population there that has always related to Russia over the rest of Ukraine. But I could imagine some uprisings there by non-Russians once the expense of running Crimea isn't fully paid by Russia.
MurphTheSurf3 : And wishing you a great Easter weekend as well.
MurphTheSurf3 : The thing about the Crimea that makes it very different is that it was almost completely resettled by Stalin with Russians after removing the Cossack and Roman populations. It was ceded to Ukraine by Kruschev in an effort to share the cost of that very expensive peninsula and to further integrate Ukraine into the USSR. Since then the flow of Russians into and out of the area has been constant.
AdLib : And you have a great Easter weekend, Murph!
AdLib : glenn posted a comment a day or so ago. Very pleased to hear the good news about Bourne! I know it's going to be tough but this is real progress! Please say hi to her for me and giver her my best.
MurphTheSurf3 : Well it is nearly midnight Very lively discussion. I asked about Glenn for Georgia...heard anything from her? Pat (Bourne) goes home on Sunday...Easter Sunday...I hope things work for her.....hard road ahead.
AdLib : Murph - Only the orchestrated uprisings of Putin's thugs. I think that Crimea was also misrepresented that way, the "vote" there was so obviously rigged and Russians were masquerading there as locals just as they continue to in eastern Ukraine. Putin is slowly discovering he has painted himself into a corner but like many tyrants, he thinks he can wriggle out of it. Ask Mubarak and Gaddafi how that worked out.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad I expect that Putin will try to do as you say in the East but my reading is showing that the sentiment there is not the same as it was in Crimea....an area very used to dependency that has long harbored a "return" to mother Russia culture...Note the lack of huge public demonstrations in the East....where are the uprisings?
AdLib : And there is no necessity for the US to try to "reset" relations with Russia until Putin is long gone, things should justifiably stay as distant as they are until then.
AdLib : I do hope that is the direction things will move. An acceleration into renewable energy and importing oil and gas from elsewhere would seem to be a very smart course for the EU. Being dependent on Russia for fuel now shows how dangerous it is to their sovereignty.
MurphTheSurf3 : The other thing that will happen is that W. Europe will work its way off of dependency on Russian petrochemicals; a rebuilding of the Ukraine economy as a whole with a strong Western presence growing; expect to see the U.S. return to space flight at an expedited pace and for relationships with Putin to remain very cold.
AdLib : Murph - Very logical and thoughtful projection. The question in my mind though is, since Putin is still pulling strings in Eastern Ukraine, might he just not stand by any deal that he publicly claims to support and keep trying to disintegrate Ukraine rule in the east then claim what he did in Crimea, "I didn't do anything, it was the people of Ukraine that begged us to annex them."
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad...I think that there will be some face saving negotiations that will result in guarantees of protection of and respect for Russia peoples in E. Ukraine, a public acceptance of the Crimea as part of Russia by Ukraine, a guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO (but no mention of the EU), and the Russians will pull back.
AdLib : Murph - It would seem so obvious that his annexing Crimea would destroy the entire facade he's been building up, to be a respected world power. But in his bubble, he believed and still does that the rest of the world can be deceived as easily as many of his people so he can have his cake and eat it too. As we know, that is physically impossible.
AdLib : Murph - What do you think will happen in Ukraine?
MurphTheSurf3 : Another insight from the AJA program...common agreement...Puti n has completely ruined his reputation and it is unredeemable - he will never be trusted or respected again in European or UN circles. He has broken too many rules to ever win his way back.
AdLib : Take care, ppo and have a wonderful Easter weekend!
AdLib : Murph - Agreed, Crimea will be an anchor on Russia's failing economy and in the end, Putin will bring about his own undoing. It will take a little while though. Wouldn't it be amusing if Putin tries to negotiate with Ukraine to help them with Crimea?
MurphTheSurf3 : PPO....Good night and happy Easter to you as well. The very best.
MurphTheSurf3 : Pink..I agree- Russia is very strong in a conventional sense but not against multiple forces, and certainly not against popular insurgence.
pinkpantheroz : Well, that's it for me tonight. A Very Happy and Holy Easter to you if you celebrate it. cheers for this week.
pinkpantheroz : Ad and Murph, I think POTUS' influence on the EU, NATO and europe to continue negotiations and sanctions is the best way to get Putin to pull his horns in.
AdLib : Murph - And we do have to proceed with caution, we backed Islamic people who opposed the USSR in Afghanistan and they became Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- Russia certainly has the most potent conventional force, but the cost of utilizing it is huge, and how many fronts can it handle at one time. Add in the costs that Crimea, which is an economic basket case, will heap on Russia and its own internal weaknesses...thi s will prove to be Putin's undoing.
AdLib : Murph - I'm all for republics in the region banding together, just saying that even if they all came together, they couldn't match Russia's military force. But not saying they would need to in order to leverage against Russia.
pinkpantheroz : Good point Murph. That little barney is by no means over, and Putin hasn't been able to fully cower them. So maybe that's a better indicator than the Afghanistan conflict as to how the Russian Army is nowadays.
AdLib : PPO - Russia isn't a rival to the US anymore but it has the biggest and best armed military by far among its neighbors. None of them could rival Russia. So, they are the neighborhood bully.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad..the Islamic alliance creates another source of dissolution and provides the ground for increased (and exportable) militancy. Think Chechnya is a settled issue.....?
pinkpantheroz : Ad, Russia is no longer the military juggernaut it once was, because it has lost its satellite republics it could once count on. so it may be a case of smoke and mirrors for domestic consumption, but he's still dangerous.
AdLib : Murph - You mean that Obama won't be painting pictures of himself in the bathtub? Doesn't sound post-Presidentia l to me.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad...and Obama, like Clinton, will be an active former President.....po werful.....
AdLib : Murph - Very interesting but those republics still wouldn't have the military or equipment to fight off a Russian invasion. This isn't a situation that can be resolved militarily because Russia is too strong for its neighbors but Russia has a soft underbelly in its economy. That's what's gotten Putin to at least pose as if he will stop annexing parts of Ukraine.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad In the same show they said the Obama has decided not to be a lame duck...by not tying his fortune to the midterms...that challenge he is putting to the Dems....in doing so he is redefining the nature of the "lame duck" period claiming that he can be an activist right to the end.
AdLib : Like we were talking about earlier, even alleged Dems like Brian Schweitzer weave lies about Obama not being capable or accomplishing anything so it's not surprising that he's not recognized in his own time for his many accomplishments. History however will hold Obama in very high regard and once his last term is over, many will look back to the days of his Presidency very nostalgically.
pinkpantheroz : Here's an idea, Let's invite all the militias to join an exercise. Then send them to Eastern Ukraine.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad...I am also reading things about efforts among the Islamic Republics to organize an anti-imperialist (read, anti Russian) mutual defense pact....A Muslim NATO?
pinkpantheroz : Yes, Ad. BBC World, AlJazeera, Japans NBN(?) and many european media outles are of far more value that their US counterparts. The dumbing down is working well for the 1%.
AdLib : Murph - It's so strange that what seems so obvious has to be confirmed by people from other countries because the US media is so propagandized.
MurphTheSurf3 : Take care choice....let's continue to fight the battle.
pinkpantheroz : Absolutely, Choice! Go for it!
choicelady : Oh Murph - that's tres cool!
AdLib : Nice seeing you Dbos! Have a great holiday weekend!
choicelady : Good night!
MurphTheSurf3 : Al Jazeera America had an interesting show on to days ago featuring four European scholars - their common opinion is that it is Obama who is holding the anti-Putin alliance in place utilizing his strategy- chess on several levels...it was quite an admission.
choicelady : PPO - can I just move to the scotch?
Dbos : Good night All my stay was short but fruitful and enjoyable.
AdLib : Thanks CL! have a wonderful and restful weekend!
pinkpantheroz : cheerio, Choice. don't forget your hot chocolate,( with a good slug of scotch)!
AdLib : CL - Right with you on that. Putin has bitten off far more than Russia can chew and the continued attempts at further annexation is part of the distraction to keep Russians feeling nationalistic... and not looking back at the worsening economic malaise they are in. Russia has no other major industry but oil exports and if il can be depressed, Russia will be crushed economically.
choicelady : Well everyone I think I'm following Sabreen out the door. Been a VERY long week, a good one overall, but a hard one coming up, so I'm hitting the hay. Great talking with everyone. Have a super weekend and a great week ahead. Good night!
Dbos : good night Sabreen
MurphTheSurf3 : Good night Sabreen..great chatting and thanks for the personal sharing.
AdLib : Sabreen - That's funny! Have a great weekend!
choicelady : Mruph - that's consistent with many things I'm reading from wise and informed folks, yes.
pinkpantheroz : Night, Sabreen. thanks for going out with a laugh!
Dbos : Right on; Ad and Choice lady
MurphTheSurf3 : All...I agree with most of what is being said here...let me add that one thing that is happening is that E. Ukrainians are getting very nervous about being absorbed into a new russian empire AND in the West Ukraine will move every more into the West's circle...none of that is good for Putin in the long run.
choicelady : AdLib - that's what I mean about the uprisings from within. He may have sealed his own doom!
AdLib : And the price that providing all the resources for Crimea will cost Russia will be a big drain on them from now on. The Russian people have no clue, it will help push them into a recession.
choicelady : Sabreen!!! LOL!!!! That is just GREAT! Thank you and have a wonderful weekend!
choicelady : AdLib - things are so fragile inside Russia, the economy so weak, that he needs to be paying attention to uprisings from within more than adventurism outside. People aren't stupid - they know he's starving his own while posturing for the cameras and the world.
Sabreen60 : Well good folks I will leave you with a quote from Charlie Pierce on Esquire. I cannot find the article right now, but he was talking about McCain and his being on Sunday shows EVERY week and said this about him: "...pretending that he is president and that he didn’t give America a raging case of the Sarah Palin STDs" - Have a great week.
pinkpantheroz : Choice, yes, and also Russia has huge contracts to pump natural gas to the EU. and where do the pipeliines run through? you guessed it, Ukraine! So he's basically shot himself in the foot. He;ll probably back off, but I don't see the Crimean peninsula returning to Ukraine.
Dbos : Murph;The ukraine is very large with diverse population Crimea is Russia's naval base area.
choicelady : AdLib - I think these skirmishes may be all there is, and they play to primetime in Russia while meaning very little in fact. Symbol and show are enough for Putin to pretend he won.
choicelady : Sabreen - some commentators from Germany have noted that those EU nations are not nearly so dependent on oil as we had been led to believe, so sanctions are fine, can go on for a very long time. Putin is already backing down because of the impact.
AdLib : Murph - While I do think that Putin is recognizing the high price of his actions, I don't trust his alleged agreement to keeping the peace. He is still having his thugs dominate areas in Eastern Ukraine.
Sabreen60 : Murph, IMO - who knows what Putin will do. I think the only recourse we the EU may have are sanctions.
choicelady : Murph - I think, hope anyway, that Putin will back off and pretend he did something good. He's feeling the pressure domestically from zeroed out economic growth from the sanctions. Lots of good discussion at The People's View on this.
pinkpantheroz : Murph, phrases like 'annex the Sudetenland' ( Crimea) and 'Lebensraum' (Poland) come to mind. scary!
choicelady : PPO - any Dem will be an enemy. It was started under Clinton male and will continue. I don't know what will ever make this better in my lifetime.
MurphTheSurf3 : MAY I ASK....ANY THOUGHTS ON THE UKRAINE? War, peace, absorption, resistance, GOP allegiance to Putin?
choicelady : Dbos - I think his star is waning though. He lost a lot of clout over the wiretaps in the UK.
pinkpantheroz : Of course, in a couple of years we'll see: "The enemy of THIS Female President is my friend
AdLib : Murph - Well, we know that the militia crowd won't say "My Country".
Dbos : Pink bringing up Australia Brings to mind a certain owner of FOX; who is one very exceptional propagandist; better than Goebels
MurphTheSurf3 : PPO...yes your phrasing also works.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad...in that so many of them regard PBO as illegitimate I wonder if they would even use the phrase "my country."
choicelady : PPO - that would not be true if it were Alan West or his ilk. They'd love a captive negro because they could rule his every thought and deed. Cain was their pet.
choicelady : AdLib -"THE country's president..." Never possessive. NEVER.
pinkpantheroz : Murph, what about: "The enemy of ANY Black U S President is my friend".
AdLib : Murph - Great correction, they would never say "My President". Maybe, "My country's President"?
choicelady : Murph - that is an essential correction, yes.
choicelady : PPO - I got a real sense of the Empire in "Jewel in the Crown". The sheer hell the Brits unleashed on the world can never be repaired.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib: Correction- "The enemy of THIS Black President is my friend." They would never say "My".
Dbos : Bingo Ad ;Whites of the World unite
pinkpantheroz : Well, folks, we can all thank the British Empire for MD. they used the term Terra Nullius in australia when they arrived, meaning the land belonged to nobody, so they claimed it. They then introduced their version of MD by ethnic cleansing of Aboriginals who had the temerity to say they were there first! It was as big a con as what Wall Street is doing now. they wrote the Laws in England and exported them to folk who could neither read, write or understand. Sound Familiar again?
choicelady : AdLib - if that's not the stupidest rationale ever, don't know what is.
AdLib : CL - Repub thinking goes like this, "The enemy of my Black President is my friend."
choicelady : AdLib - the weakest people make the strongest bid for being The Chosen.
AdLib : CL - The Nazis believed in Aryan Exceptionalism.
MurphTheSurf3 : Dbos here is the polling info «link»
choicelady : Dbos - cannot wrap my mind around the big Commie hunters of the past now being Putin fan boys. Just does not compute!
Dbos : hey Murph hey Sabreen hey Choice; et all
choicelady : AdLib - it's turned American Exceptionalism into God's little favorites. All Pentecostals think they're the Chosen. Doesn't do it for me, but you know my relationship with them.
MurphTheSurf3 : Dbos- surveys in the E. Ukraine do not show a willingness to cede sovereignty to Russia...
choicelady : Sabreen - I lived in a very mixed neighborhood in Buffalo. We were a very together bunch of folks, and people used to drive down our street, see white and Black families all laughing together, and they'd STOP and STARE at us. The kids were safe on our block, but they didn't live their entire lives there. Every family with sons had "the talk" as they got older. Broke our hearts.
AdLib : Dbos - So true, the strongest Russia supporters are in Eastern Ukraine, Crimea and the GOP.
AdLib : CL - And what do we think of them for claiming that? That they're nuts, right?
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib...where is our friend from Atlanta, Glenn? Not seen her in weeks.
Dbos : Ad the Rusians don't have to claim their exceptonalism ;the Republicans are dong for them
MurphTheSurf3 : Howdy Dbos
Sabreen60 : Thank you CL. All mothers worry about their kids. Black moms also have to teach there black boys how to comport themselves in public e.g., don't run down the street because someone will think you've done something wrong. Don't get upset because salespeople follow you around in a store. Don't expect to catch a cab late at night. There are many, many things we teach our sons. Unfortunately, some don't listen.
AdLib : ANy usage of assigning superiority to a group simply because of its being born who and where it was is insane to me.
choicelady : AdLib - actually the Pentecostal Russians are doing exactly that, and yes, they suddenly are part of American Exceptionalism when they arrive here. Go figure.
MurphTheSurf3 : Sab...having grown up in the South and living in Mo...I know of what you speak...
AdLib : CL - And if Russia claimed that Russians were more exceptional than Americans, would we say, "Okay, that's cool"?
choicelady : Dbos - Hi. Yup - now we see it everywhere. Those who think they are special little snowflakes and especially those thinking they're blessed by God are making more and more lives a living hell. I'm so sorry.
AdLib : Hey Dbos! Special Ed-ceptionalism, indeed!
choicelady : KT - good night and hope for Spring!
Sabreen60 : Hi Dbos
choicelady : Sabreen - I cannot fully understand your pain, but I've been with friends who were hassled - partly because I was there - in ways that were deadly scary. Living with that fear of losing the men you love when they step out of the house must eat you daily. I hate that this is an integral part of your lives. I don't know where you find the strength to deal with that. You are so in my heart!
Dbos : Choice lady its turned into American Special Exceptionalism as in special ed
AdLib : Night KT! See you over the weekend for the Music Thread!
Sabreen60 : Kt, take care and have a good night.
AdLib : CL - I never understood Americans believing in American Exceptionalism because it is antithetical to a democracy that is based on "All Men Are Created Equal". The quote didn't say, "All American Men...". So how is an American more exceptional than an equal African? And it creeps me out a bit because it's just a half-step away from the "Master Race" mentality.
KillgoreTrout : Yeah CL. She's doing great now. We're still waiting for the temps to get above 50. It's still very beautiful when the sun shines.
Sabreen60 : Murph, PPO. I don't know if you'll understand, but remember when PBO said that Trayvon could have been he 35 years ago. I don't know one black man who has been accosted for no good reason by the police - including my son. It's nice to say somebody is mixed. And maybe people who say they see PBO as mixed really do. Maybe he's more acceptable if he's seen as mixed. All I know if he wasn't President of United States and just your average "black" guy, he would be subjected to same things most black men are subjected to. This is my world view of living it for 65 years. I tend to be a realist. It is what it is.
choicelady : KT - how's your Mom doing? You still in Cape Cod with her? I'm assuming so given your early retiring!
KillgoreTrout : Well folks, got hit the hay. Here's wishing you all a wonderful weekend!
choicelady : Everyone - when Palin et al. speak of "American Exceptionalism" it is just a new version of Manifest Destiny. Wrap it in new clothing, and it's still genocide.
AdLib : Murph - Nothing in the poll will reveal that people were or weren't being honest on a question about race and principles but it is a prime question for people to hide their true racial feelings.
choicelady : KT - and well you should! What a crock!
choicelady : Sabreen - the first couple of wars were horrific - King Philip's war in the 1690s and then the siege of Deerfield, MA. These and uprisings along the Mohawk River in NY all fed the justification that sprang up after the Civil War as license to kill, to corral, to imprison native people.
KillgoreTrout : CL, I really, really hate that phrase.
AdLib : KT - You said it, Manifest Destiny was one of the most vicious and destructive "philosophies" in modern times.
choicelady : Sabreen - that is the latter 19th C. justification for genocide indeed.
choicelady : KT - that's a very post Civil War notion, yes. After the war the explosion of settlements had to be justified. The Homestead Act was both a wonderful thing for settlers and a death sentence for native people. So we had to justify it all - Manifest Destiny. God sent us. And all that...
AdLib : CL - Is there any other reason for denying billions of dollars and insuring the uninsured than just trying to deny any accomplishment to the black Democratic President?
Sabreen60 : CL, This was a really quick search and I don't know how accurate: White Attitudes. Among whites there were two common religiously based attitudes toward Native Americans. One was expressed in the notion of Manifest Destiny, the idea that white Christians had a God-given mission to expand their civilization and its ideals of liberty and democracy across the entire North American continent. From this point of view Indians who occupied valuable lands could be removed or even exterminated with few moral qualms. A second point of view held that the Indians did not have to be seen as a hindrance to white progress. Rather, they were simply ignorant heathens who could become part of American society if they were allowed to benefit from the civilizing instruction of whites. «link»
MurphTheSurf3 : Sab and Ad....I just finished reading through the Poll. Again Pew is really good at this stuff. I need to spend some time unpacking it.
pinkpantheroz : Barack Obama is the American President of the United States. Period, and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. It is utterly irrelevant that he is of less than Tide white appearance.
choicelady : Murph - the Puritans were far more aggressive but the Pilgrims were pretty cool. Learned the Wampanoag and Narraganset languages, wrote very exacting agreements with indigenous people, and honored them for who they were. Lasted about 10 years. Then whammo.
KillgoreTrout : Two of the worst words in the American history lexicon are "manifest destiny."
AdLib : Right CL, it is a long and disgusting history of lies and broken promises when it comes to the U.S. government dominating Native Americans.
choicelady : AdLib - Last night one of the homeless men asked if color had something to do with the southern states not taking up Medicaid. Even the homeless care about this. He's Latino, and it matters to him a lot because Medi-Cal keeps him alive. He can't believe racism has caused the South to keep that help from people such as he in those states.
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- this is more your area than mine....I guess I see the Pilgrims et.al. in terms of seeking religious freedom until they get to impose the rules....I shall do some reading.
KillgoreTrout : Right CL. I can a story on several news outlets, but abc and cbs have had nightly reports about them for nearly a week.
choicelady : PPO - nothing blasts 'reservations' faster than the success of said 'reservations' . Aboriginal people suddenly had riches, and...
AdLib : Murph - There are some types of polls where people are less likely to be honest and there is a politically correct aspect to this kind of question. So many people say what they think is politically correct, obscuring what they really think. We've sure seen enough over the past five years to know how Obama's race is always front and center in many Americans' minds.
choicelady : AdLib - that was later, after the Pilgrims, and it blasted to hell all the Pilgrims tried to do. The sheer press of more people made it unlikely to survive, and wars erupted pretty quickly with First Nations people. Horrible.
pinkpantheroz : Choice, same here. The Aboriginals gained title to vast tracts of unusable land - well, unusable to the Invaders, that is. They've survived there for 40,00 years. And then someone discovers diamons, ot gold, or uranium and soo they'e firing at each other with 16" lawyers! sound familiar?
choicelady : Murph - I don't think so. I can find NO records of their evangelizing - they lived separately. In fact I find no records of Puritans doing that. Evangelizing came later during the Great Awakening. What did happen was massive separation of First Nations people from settlers. Congregationlism did not recruit converts and did require residents of the towns to support and attend the church, but they did not go out to even Native people to change them. Later of course, they just killed them. Such is the press of land grabs. Sigh.
AdLib : CL - Europeans also said, "We'll just take this much land, you can have that part." Then of course they changed their minds again and again.
choicelady : PPO - Yes, they have rights, and nobody gave a damn because we shoved them onto the LEAST productive land. Then they discovered oil. Then they created casinos. And now white people think First Nations should be taxed, have the land confiscated, etc. etc. We were fine with it all until they actually, you know, PROSPERED.
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice...but even the Pilgrims required Christianization .
Sabreen60 : Murph, I guess I fall into the 55% of AA's who see him as black. I know he is "mixed". But in the USA "color" is what is seen. He has no "European" features. Maybe whites and Latinos would like to think of him as "mixed". However, I see him as a black man who has been treated like a black man by far too many people in this country, if you get my drift.
choicelady : KT - isn't it interesting we know far more about Kate and William and little George and almost nothing about the protest. Such is the nature of media.
pinkpantheroz : Choice, there has been a major shift in the past 40 years or so to giving Aboriginals land rights. It was a Supreme court decision that acknowleged that they were here first, and were therefore entitled to access and manage native land, where they had a history of long standing. I don't know enough about American Indians rights right now. Do they have those rights as well? Sorry, this is a bit simplistic, but I hope you understand.
choicelady : Hell AdLib - we Europeans did not say "We want your land" we said "We're TAKING your land, like it or not!" Only the Pilgrims (different from the Puritans) went out of their way to be really fair and principled about the acquisitions. Then the bounders arrived, and all the Peaceable Kingdom that might have been went to hell. And we never stopped from that point on.
KillgoreTrout : Sounds interesting PPO. I've seen a lot of news coverage about the royals there.
MurphTheSurf3 : Sab...Pew does polling very well.
choicelady : Sabreen - Yup. He's Black. I know he did not grow up in the inner city, but he's Black. And his concern for communities of color is one reason I love him.
AdLib : ppo - Just the kind of inconvenience that pops up at times when you steal a people's country. Ask Native Americans here, they never really got into the spirit of the "We want your land!" crowd from Europe.
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice...I think you are correct re. O and Keystone...and now the tide is changing...I think the whole may cost the GOP big in Nebraska.
choicelady : Murph - that's funny! I think similar things occurred when William was born if I remember correctly.
MurphTheSurf3 : PPO....the story running here is a baby girl with a shirt reading "Marry me George" a reference to the Royal Babe...with a headline "Face it kid, you are already a stud"
Sabreen60 : Murph, I don't believe that poll. If PBO is walking down any street is USA everyone would see black. They would not see his white mother, because he doesn't look white. I think people will say "whatever" on polls.
choicelady : AdLib - Schweitzer may need that job if he loses the current one, and FOX would be the skulk he should join.
AdLib : Murph - Sounds like Colbert's joke about not being able to see race!
choicelady : PPO - I'm interested in that uprising after all this time. Has there been precedent? We in the dark and cold north pay NO attention, I'm sorry to say.
AdLib : Sabreen - Schweitzer may be angling to fill a "Democrat" slot at Fox News and will endear himself to their viewers by denigrating Obama.
choicelady : Murph - I actually believe in my heart of hearts PBO never intended to permit Keystone, but he had to get enough people riled up to give him support. We live in perilous times, and the more opposition the better.
pinkpantheroz : Sorry, KT! Been having a coffee! Down Under is all a twitter about Prince William and Kate's State visit. All was copacetic and all was going smoothly in the Royal PR Spin Departmant, until they got to Briabane and found there was a big Aboriginal protest there complaining about Britain stealing their continent. Jus a minor thing, but it jarred the complacent Poms!
MurphTheSurf3 : PEW POLL...Most Americans do not see Obama as black. «link»
choicelady : Sabreen - I think he deserves NOTHING for being that stupid.
MurphTheSurf3 : Sab...WH is delaying - I think in response to growing grass roots opposition. There are a dozen or more big name GOP along the route who are also ranchers, farmers who have been spooked by the info re. the aquifer.
Sabreen60 : No poll that I know of Murph. It just amazes me how Brian could say this administration has done nothing. If he's running for President he can forget about the Obama coalition.
AdLib : Murph - The Fox Skulk...sounds like the kind of dance Murdoch would know.
choicelady : Murph - LOL!! I'd not seen that poll, but frankly that's pretty funny. I will take that as seeing him first as a person. I can't remotely interpret that.
choicelady : Murph - only you would, off the top of your head, know the venereal name for foxes!
MurphTheSurf3 : Sab and Choice...what poll is it that found that the majority of the country does not think of Obama as black....
choicelady : Murph - that's AMAZING! I was born there, had family there (socialists, but that's a really long story) and love the state, warts and all. I'm delighted you're doing that.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad....Fox's role in the Nevada events is truly despicable...Wha t is a group of foxes called? A skulk!
Sabreen60 : Murph, I heard decision re Keystone is postponed until end of year.
choicelady : Sabreen - may I, a white person, note that the absolutely LEAST interesting thing about PBO is his race? It's what is in his heart and head that captures me! Of course I'm aware how historic this is, but it is the LEAST interesting thing about him.
AdLib : With the militia crowd being emboldened, those who think the GOP has a lock on the elections this Nov. could be very surprised. Another armed confrontation of the Tea Party set, especially one in which people are harmed, could flip this election big time. And those groups and Fox are clamoring for that.
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- I got hooked because I ended up making a call to the coordinator of Nebraska Bold after an appearance on an MSNBC show last week AND she answered her own phone...we spoke about the work her group is doing and then she asked if I might be willing to do some arranging for group travel....so....
Sabreen60 : CL, The comment that former MT Governor Brian Schweitzer said about PBO. According to Brian this administration has done nothing and the credit PBO gets is being 1st AA President.
choicelady : Murph - should have also said - GOOD FOR YOU FOR ALL YOU DO!!!
choicelady : Murph - I saw that alliance. Good for NE. They're the only state in the nation that does not permit family farms to be sold to corporations, so it's totally in keeping they won't let corporations destroy their land either.
MurphTheSurf3 : Sab...ok..got it....would have been happy with one of our guys...a decent group.
AdLib : CL - I'll take 8 blocks any day!
choicelady : Hi Sabreen! Research on what?
KillgoreTrout : Damn!
AdLib : CL - I know you wouldn't let him get away with that!
choicelady : AdLib - I'm just glad I don't have to drive 150 miles roundtrip tonight! Dinner was 8 blocks away. MUCH better.
Sabreen60 : Hi CL. I was doing a little research when you came on board.
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice. I am well. Busy with final garden preps on the farm. Working on Medicaid Expansion. I am involved long distance with NebraskaBold right now (fighting Keystone) and doing some coord work for them for the Cowboy and Indian Alliance event this weekend.
choicelady : AdLib - Lowest of the low is Schweitzer. My Congressman comes second - voted against ACA last time. Justified it as a plan 'needing work'. I cut him a new one.
AdLib : CL - Oh, hope you had a nice dinner and pleased that it meant you'd be here!
Sabreen60 : Murph, actually it was Montana Gov. Brian Schweitzer. Should have used MT instead of MO for Missouri. I can't find that particular interview, but in this one he's saying the administration hasn't done anything. «link»
KillgoreTrout : Ad, I hope the DNC jumped all over that moron.
AdLib : Murph -Schweitzer is the worst kind of politician who premeditates what path seems available then he changes himself to fit it. No Dem is running as an Obama hater? Great, Schweitzer's got that covered! What scum, he should be shut out by Dems because he's nothing but a mercenary fraud.
choicelady : Or your cattle..
choicelady : KT - well good luck to 'em since they and you have NO idea where I am.
KillgoreTrout : Damn CL, I knew it. Now I have to round up the wimmin and cillins and tell my boys to get thar shootin irons.
choicelady : Murph. You're well? Or, well... maybe not so much? Hope it's the former.
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- well.....
choicelady : Good to see you, AdLib. My meeting was cancelled so I went out to dinner instead then back to say howdy.
choicelady : Hey Murph - how are you?
AdLib : Hey CL! Nice to see you!
choicelady : KT - Yeah I STOLE your cattle. HAH!
MurphTheSurf3 : Hello Choice
KillgoreTrout : Hey CL! Have you seen my cattle anywhere?
AdLib : KT - Schweitzer said Obama's only accomplishment as President was being the first AA President. So his race is his only accomplishment? Really?
MurphTheSurf3 : Kes...the living former Govs are Kit Bond, Joe Teasdale, John Ashcraft, Roger Wilson, Bob Holden, Matt Blunt. Current Gov. Jay Nixon. Bond, Ashcroft, Blunt are R's.
choicelady : Evening all - sorry to have just missed kes. Hope everyone is OK here?
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad...Schweitzer did but he got such blowback on it that he has reoriented his language....he does not want to exiled.
KillgoreTrout : Ad, what did he say?
AdLib : FYI, Brian Schweitzer was the Dem Gov of Monatan who's attacked Obama racially.
KillgoreTrout : Bundy would shoot the Easter Bunny!
MurphTheSurf3 : Sab....I thought it might have been Blunt, but he is a GOP. I wonder who would say that.
AdLib : Night Kes! I'd egg Cliven's shack but he'd probably shoot and claim Stand Your Ground Against Easter Eggs.
Sabreen60 : Yeah, Murph. And he's a so-called Democrat. If I can find it I provide the link.
KillgoreTrout : Hey PPO, how are things Down Under?
AdLib : Sabreen - The racism today is so open, it's mind numbing. Well, at least his point on the branding bodes well for Cliven getting his comeuppance.
Sabreen60 : Good night kes. Enjoy the weekend.
MurphTheSurf3 : Sab...a former Gov of Mo....said what?
kesmarn : May he have egg all over his face -- one way or the other -- before this is all over with, AdLib! G'night!
KillgoreTrout : Have a great Easter Homie. Are you hiding eggs?
AdLib : And Kes, don't let Cliven steal your Easter eggs and claim that he doesn't recognize your right to them.
Sabreen60 : I heard the former Governor of MO - whom I don't like - tore his drawers with me when he said on that the only PBO has to his credit is being the first AA President. But anyway, he was talking about how all cows are branded. So when Bundy takes his cattle in to sell the government will get the check. Sorta like garnishing your wages.
kesmarn : Murph! G'night!
KillgoreTrout : hey Murph and Ad.
MurphTheSurf3 : Kes...have fun with the egg hunt....no matter how much you have to do...consider how much worse it would be if you had to lay them yourself....
AdLib : Night Kes, have a wonderful Easter!!!
kesmarn : So sorry it's "hi and bye" Homie! Hope all's well with you and have a great weekend.
AdLib : Hey KT! I'm all hat and no cattle...grazing .
AdLib : Murph - No question this was heavy handed and poorly thought out by the BLM. Still, citizens don't have a right to threaten law enforcement officials who are acting on court orders.
kesmarn : This is a wonderful discussion, kids, but I'm afraid I may have to call it a day. I'm the hostess for the family Easter extravaganza and tomorrow is going to be a long day of preparation! Have a great weekend!
KillgoreTrout : Hey Sabreen! LOL! How are ya?
MurphTheSurf3 : KT...welcome to our DUDE Ranch!
Sabreen60 : Hiya KT. Bundy stole 'em.
MurphTheSurf3 : There are 22 separate decisions against this guy dating back 20 years...and not one has been enforced.
KillgoreTrout : Hey Planet Peeps! Has anyone seen my cattle?
AdLib : What good are cattle if you can't cash a check or get a wire transfer without the government taking it away? The feds should go to court to seize his assets and block him from getting a penny more until his debts are paid AND he agrees not to foment violence against law enforcement and government officials.
Sabreen60 : Maybe the BLM didn't handle this the best way. But damn, the IRS will come to your business and chain the doors if you don't pay up.
MurphTheSurf3 : SOOOO....why did Bureau do as they did....Stupid, for Show, or macho madness? Not good thinking...a cattle drive in which two prize bulls and a dozen head of cattle die....amateur night!
pinkpantheroz : Kes, :LOL:
kesmarn : No worries,PPO! You were just thinking along the lines the feds were!
AdLib : Murph - I think Bundy wants to be a martyr and would welcome being jailed but if his assets were taken away yet he remained free, it would be the worst thing for him.
Sabreen60 : What happens to any other citizen who refuses to pay the government what is owed? I agree that the government should levy his bank accounts, cattle and all his assets that would equal the amount he owes.
kesmarn : Yes, AdLib, I think there are financial ways to get things done that don't have the drama factor and/or present opportunities for wannabe martyrs.
kesmarn : PPO, the feds actually were trying to impound his cattle when all this blew up.
AdLib : Kes, that would be very smart, seize Cliven's assets and let him whine to Putin about how he sympathizes with him.
pinkpantheroz : hi, Murph. Maybe impound his cattle for non-payment of arrears! Beef prices are high now!
Sabreen60 : Hey pink. I think it would a huge mistake not to take action against these guys.
pinkpantheroz : Hey, AdLib, agree, but really wish something could be done with that squatter to curb his enthusiasm.
MurphTheSurf3 : Hello PPO....I agree a message must be sent but what is the correct message.....
AdLib : Hey ppo! I fully agree but I don't think Obama wants to stoke the racial and governmental hatred of the extremists so I think he'll just let it fade away. We'll see...especially because I don't think it will fade away.
Sabreen60 : Murph, So this guy is just goody two-shoes who is wildly misunderstood. They are really nice people who just what? like to practice taking down the government. As the Southern Poverty Law Center about any of the militia groups. No, they may not all be as loony as those who showed up at Bundy's. But they weren't all from the same group.
MurphTheSurf3 : Why in the world the Feds decide to do this that way....a build up of forces, creating a zone for protesters, letting observers near the cattle drive out of respect for the property rights of Bundy, allowing the militia to settle in and then being face with a no win....why not get a judge to find Bundy in contempt and arrest him in the dark of night...off to a federal detention center...bail set very high...OR get a lien on his assets....why play into the militia's hands.
AdLib : Sabreen - I think Obama should go after them or there will be more incidents like this and eventually, officers will be shot. I really don't know if he will go after them though, he's repeatedly avoided going after those who act criminally but could impact politics in this country. I say that with a bit of regret but I haven't seen Wall Street CEOs or Bush Admin torturers go to trial.
kesmarn : I think that if I were in the administration I would like to see the focus on hitting Bundy very hard in the wallet. I would find a way to put leins on his property and/or freeze bank accounts. If he's going to have the same attitude toward boundary lines that Putin does, he can get the same treatment.
pinkpantheroz : Sabreen, I agree those snipers training guns on officials should be charged. Didn't they charge the woman who threw a shoe at Hillary? well, Same ol' same ol'!
AdLib : Murph - There's no reasoning with people who believe that "regular Americans" were out there in the desert in NV aiming weapons at government officials. Militias are necessarily made up of extremists, there is no practical purpose for a militia than to prepare to have armed conflict with other Americans. That ain't normal.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad (and all) I don't know a bout the rest of you, but here Mo. that list does not meet the specs I associate with your typical militia group.
Sabreen60 : AdLib, PBO may want to wait a while, but I don't see how he, Homeland Security and the Defense Department are going to let these yahoos get away scot free.
AdLib : Sabreen - Kes just eloquently described what I was about to say. These lunatics genuinely believe most Americans think like they do and they even believe that the military and police forces would all switch sides to join them against our "tyrannical government".
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad (and all) Here one of the comments I got at HP re. the militia types: "Dear Murph S......I will choose to respect your opinion about the Nevada Ranch situation; it is your right to speak your mind. However, please do not associate the citizen-unorgani zed militia as "Stromfront viewers types." I do recognize that there are some loose cannons among us, but most of us are just normal folk. We are made up of firefighters, lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, fast food workers, and even police officers. We have members from every career field. Federal law gives us legitimacy:10 US code 311 recognizes us as a legitimate armed force. Yet we a demonized as 'domestic terrorists."... .Just to let you know, the BLM threatened to open fire on largely unarmed protesters in order to get them to back off.
kesmarn : I think they've deluded themselves into believing that there are millions of sympathizers out there who are only waiting for someone to fire the first shot and then they'll all pull out their weaponry and join the revolution. Ain't happenin'
AdLib : Sabreen - My guess is that in an election year, Obama doesn't want to whip up support amongst the radical right by coming down on those traitors and potential assassins. I don't know that he's right but I do know that the RW and Fox would use any arrest as a rallying call for more protests and threats of armed standoffs. So...I don't know...maybe for right now it's best to postpone arrests. What do you think?
Sabreen60 : AdLib, How in the world do these militia groups think they can win a fighting war with USA?
kesmarn : Exactly, Sabreen. They are very lucky that there's a sane man in the White House.
AdLib : Murph, it's hard to break through the minds of those who are steeped in following. The militia types live in a phony bubble and it keeps them feeling safe, they don't want to know what the world really is because their desperate need to ascend to superiority takes precedence over truth. IOW, they can't handle the truth.
kesmarn : You have to wonder if they're ever going to figure out that once trust is damaged beyond a certain point -- even their all-important business can't function. But they don't "get" enlightened self-interest, just self-interest "red in tooth and claw."
Sabreen60 : I heard a guest on some show say that this was the largest gathering of different militia groups, ever. If PBO were the dictator they claim, he would have sent a drone to finish what they started.
AdLib : Kes - We've seen this so many times now, the blatant hypocrisy of Repubs holding up the early numbers on the ACA to attack Obama and the ACA as failures then after the numbers turned around, attacking the numbers as untrustworthy. They are simply liars and frauds who will say anything to advance their agenda.
kesmarn : Lord of the Flies would look like a Sunday school picnic compared to that island of the Kochs, Romneys, AdLib.
Sabreen60 : These guys who showed up with their weapons took sniper positions. They pointed their guns at Federal workers. They're on video. Tell me they're going to jail, just like anyone of us had with trained our guns on Federal workers.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Over at HP....I had one of the militia types come after me for my comment about how they were doing what all of those who do not think do....fall for propaganda that plays into their fantasies....in other words, they get played.
AdLib : Sabreen - Are the Koch Brothers, Mitt Romney, etc. so different? They demand handouts from the Federal government while railing against it as evil and overstepping its power. Part of me would want to see all of them on their own island without any government...or money being worth anything.
kesmarn : Good one, AdLib! Someone made an interesting point earlier today. That went black teens are murdered in "stand your ground" situations and the killers are aquitted, the folks who object are told. "The courts have ruled. Deal with it. Get over it." But when Cliven refuses to accept the court's ruling (multipe times) he's a hero.
AdLib : Murph - Mmm...like Cliven and the Militias, I love my Constitution very rare! Not even read!
Sabreen60 : So Cliven says he's a self made man who doesn't recognize the Federal Government. I guess he's cows must fly 'cause otherwise he's using highways and/or rail, paid for by us - the Federal Government. He's the real moocher. I millionaire who refuses to pay his fair share. He's just a low life grifter.
AdLib : Kes - Cloven + Lied = Cliven
MurphTheSurf3 : Hey there Sab and along with the Shrimps on the Barbie, I got me some filet of U.S. Constitution!
kesmarn : Do you think that even the previously listless part of the American public is wising up to FOX? I'm actually seeing very few supporters (in real life) for Cliven. AdLib, my theory is that instead of feet he may have "Cliven" hooves?
AdLib : Hey Sabreen! Welcome to The Cliven States of America...brough t to you by Fox News.
AdLib : Kes - Is "Cliven" a cross between "Craven" and "Sloven"?
AdLib : Hey Murph! Throw the Constitution on that fire and Cliven and Company will be joining us!
kesmarn : Hey, Murph! And Hey, Sabreen!
AdLib : Thanks Kes, I think this was over the line of the 1st Amendment. Imagine if Al Jazeera championed a Muslim group taking up arms against the US Government.
Sabreen60 : Hello Planeteers! I see Bundy is the house I total and dangerous idiot. As are his supporters.
kesmarn : Really. What kind of a parent would name a child "Cliven"?
MurphTheSurf3 : Hello Kes and Ad...I think we may have a small crowd tonight...so I was thinking of stopping by a big BBQ in NV celebrating the triumph of patriotism over tyranny!
AdLib : And can I just ask..."Cliven" ?
kesmarn : Haven't had the chance to comment yet, but I really appreciated your latest post on the culpability of FOX in throwing plenty of gasoline on the flames in Nevada in the name of the Almighty God -- of Profits.
AdLib : Kes - I think Cliven may not recognize anyone after he serves a full sentence in federal prison.
kesmarn : I wonder if Cliven will recognize the federal government when he's on the receiving end of their hospitality -- inside of one of their 4-star fed prisons?
AdLib : Kes - And I'm ready to arm bears to fight for my freedom to bear arms that are stored on government property since I don't recognize the government...at least with that new haircut.
kesmarn : Me and my posse have gotten the word from the Catnip Party that they're ready to bear arms/claws and defend our right to trespass on Planetary fields in the name of Freedumb.
AdLib : Hey Kes! Happy Easter and let your kitties graze away, there are no laws anymore, at least that's what the NRA tells me!
kesmarn : Just stopping by to say Happy Easter to all and to ask if anybody minds if I graze my herd of 50,000 cats on the Planet and don't bother to pay any o' them dad-blamed rent fees...
AdLib : Don't forget to say "Hi!" or "Repeal Republicans!" when you arrive!
AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week's events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Join the fun tonight, hope to see you then!